Fire Forming???

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  • Fire Forming???

    I was curious about fire forming.

    I assume you guys are using AK ammo to fire form. My question is, do you use the same projectile you would use in a normal wolf, lapua, AA brass?? Then just fire it out of your grendel and let the brass expand to fill the chamber??

    That brings up some other questions.

    Doesn't the AK brass have a different base than Grendel brass?? I was thinking that the base would be smaller. If so, does that cause ejection issues??

    Does having the brass expand into your chamber case any pressure issues in the rifle?? You'd think that having the brass slam into the chamber walls would case pressure issues.

    Anyway, I just thought I try to educate myself a little bit and welcome discussion about fire forming here.
  • RangerRick

    #2
    I just use necked down AK brass (IMI is good) with a reduced load (27 grains of AA 2520). That's just enough to work the action on my gun.

    I use cheap Remington 120 Core Lokt's. It's good for plinking at 100 yards. Some guys find a real accurate node with the AK brass but I haven't messed with it that much.

    These days the availability of brass is good and the Hornady is about $60 per hundred, so you have to seriously consider if you are gaining much by fire forming.

    The fire formed cases hold less powder than Grendel brass and won't last as long. Some guys do it to hunt with, but how many shots do you take hunting? Losing a piece of premium brass brass is not that big of an expense when you consider all else you pay for a hunt.

    I'd rather get optimum power and accuracy and take home some meat.

    R

    Comment

    • VASCAR2
      Chieftain
      • Mar 2011
      • 6218

      #3
      I was going to use my fire formed 7.62 X 39 brass if I ever get to go hog hunting but with the drought in Texas I'm not sure we'll make the trip next Feb/March.

      Comment


      • #4
        So basically, if you are wildcatting and have no other way of coming up with the proper brass it works well. But, if there are commercial options available out there then they are probably a better option???? Is that about the bottom line?? Hell, I don't know of anyone that has anything other than steel 7.62x39 brass anyway.

        Comment

        • LR1955
          Super Moderator
          • Mar 2011
          • 3355

          #5
          Originally posted by Mutt View Post
          So basically, if you are wildcatting and have no other way of coming up with the proper brass it works well. But, if there are commercial options available out there then they are probably a better option???? Is that about the bottom line?? Hell, I don't know of anyone that has anything other than steel 7.62x39 brass anyway.
          Mutt:

          Up to a couple of years ago, we were basically forced to use commercial 7.62 X 39 brass because AA couldn't get the Lapua brass on any sort of regular schedule and was out of the brass for extremely long periods of time. I think the longest was close to a year. No one else made the brass so if you wanted to shoot your Grendel, you were left with no other choice.

          The only other option was taking extremely expensive 6 PPC and forming it (I tried and it didn't work well) or taking 7.62 X 39 brass and sizing it down then shooting it to fire form. That does work very well. The difference is that the 7.62 X 39 brass is thicker so it takes less powder -- about ten percent less powder. Yes, you can come close to velocities you would get with the more spacious Grendel. The problem with 7.62 X 39 brass was that guys were hot loading it (in relative terms) so were only getting four or five shots per piece. Remington 7.62 X 39 brass uses small rifle primers but is not available so we had to go with IMI brass that uses large rifle primers. Due to either the composition of the IMI brass or loads, the primer pockets would get loose after four or five firings.

          None the less, it was the only brass we could find at the time so we used it. I would use it again and probably will as I have about 1300 pieces of IMI 7.62 X 39 brass gathering dust. However, at the cost (about $.18 a piece) you could not go wrong.

          As for accuracy? As good as any other brass to include the dollar a piece Lapua stuff. Just note that the Lapua stuff ought to last a good eight to ten shots. I have some that must have twenty shots on them and have been fired through four different chambers. Primers still seat firmly, no cracked necks, no problems aside from chewed up rims.

          LR1955

          I have about 1300 pieces of IMI 7.62 X 39 brass that I will sell if you are interested.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks,

            The background makes the whole thing more logical. Well, if (god forbid) there comes a time when you can't get grendel ammo, or some kind of SHTF situation when all that's available is 7.62x39 is the only thing we can find. It's good to know it can be used.

            So, basically you just throw then into a normal grendel die and full length size them??

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mutt View Post
              Thanks,

              The background makes the whole thing more logical. Well, if (god forbid) there comes a time when you can't get grendel ammo, or some kind of SHTF situation when all that's available is 7.62x39 is the only thing we can find. It's good to know it can be used.

              So, basically you just throw then into a normal grendel die and full length size them??
              Yup, grease em up and full-length size, although the neck is only the thing really being sized due to 7.62x39 case taper. Lapua also makes beautiful 7.62x39 brass, but as Gene said, Grendel brass availability trumps any need to fire-form 7.62 short anymore.

              Comment


              • #8
                for best results, all Grendel brass regardless of headstamp, requires fire-forming. the volume of a fire-formed Lapua case is about 1 whole grain of powder higher than that of virgin brass.

                typically, factory Grendel ammo (123gr bullets) will chronograph at 2550 fps. the same bullet loaded in fire-formed brass will chrono at 2640 fps.

                the brass must be fired AT LEAST TWICE to get the extra volume.

                for the same reason, it is futile to pursue load-development with virgin brass (unless you intend to always shoot virgin brass).

                Comment

                • pinzgauer
                  Warrior
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 440

                  #9
                  While most of my Grendel shooting has been with fireformed IMI 7.62x39, at this point there is no advantage to using that approach, and even some disadvantages. As LR1995 mentions: Slightly reduced case capacity, with an even smaller velocity reduction. Made sense when IMI brass was available in bulk, and Grendel was not.

                  Right now the best way to get into reloading grendel is to buy Hornady ammo, shoot it, and then reload the once fires. While you can buy brass and components, if you were going to shoot the 123g AMAX anyway you won't save much money at all buying components. (And the 123g AMAX is my favorite bullet now)

                  You start reloading with properly fireformed ammo, etc.

                  While I'm still shooting mostly IMI from my original buy, I'm slowly building up Hornady brass for reloading shooting the occasional box of Hornady ammo.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    +1 on pinzgauer's comment. I played with the numbers and buying the factory hornady loads is the cheapest way to get going. In the end, it may work out better with buying lapua brass since everyone says out lasts about twice as long. Guess I'll figure that out later

                    Comment

                    • RangerRick

                      #11
                      Originally posted by QuadCam View Post
                      +1 on pinzgauer's comment. I played with the numbers and buying the factory hornady loads is the cheapest way to get going. In the end, it may work out better with buying lapua brass since everyone says out lasts about twice as long. Guess I'll figure that out later
                      Check out the Alexander Arms special on Hornady brass: http://www.alexanderarms.com/item/13...m?500special=1

                      $225 for 500, or 45 cent apiece, about half of what Lapua brass is going for. Even if you use Lapua for target shooting, this might be good for hunting loads.


                      Rick

                      Comment

                      • pinzgauer
                        Warrior
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 440

                        #12
                        Do the math:

                        $.45 Brass
                        $.26 AMAX
                        $.03 Primer
                        $.10 Powder (AA 2520 28g at $25/lb)
                        --------------------------------------
                        $.84 / Round

                        $.90 a round Hornady factory Ammo 123g AMAX ($18 / 20)

                        I reload once fired, but if your time is worth anything it's worth finding the factory Hornady ammo on sale. I've bought it as cheap as $16-17 per box. And its still faster any of the reloads I've been able to mix up. And at least as accurate.

                        Yes, you might be able to lower the powder & primer prices slightly, but you also get into hazmat fees, etc. I have found the 123g projectile as cheap as $22/box, but lately $25-26 without shipping is the best I've been able to find.

                        Your mileage will vary if you prefer other bullets, but it's very hard to beat the 123g AMAX right now for Grendel usage. After chasing different (and more expensive) bullets, I've ended up standardizing on the AMAX.

                        Comment

                        • Clod Stomper

                          #13
                          Originally posted by pinzgauer View Post
                          Do the math:

                          $.45 Brass
                          $.26 AMAX
                          $.03 Primer
                          $.10 Powder (AA 2520 28g at $25/lb)
                          --------------------------------------
                          $.84 / Round

                          $.90 a round Hornady factory Ammo 123g AMAX ($18 / 20)

                          I reload once fired, but if your time is worth anything it's worth finding the factory Hornady ammo on sale. I've bought it as cheap as $16-17 per box. And its still faster any of the reloads I've been able to mix up. And at least as accurate.

                          Yes, you might be able to lower the powder & primer prices slightly, but you also get into hazmat fees, etc. I have found the 123g projectile as cheap as $22/box, but lately $25-26 without shipping is the best I've been able to find.

                          Your mileage will vary if you prefer other bullets, but it's very hard to beat the 123g AMAX right now for Grendel usage. After chasing different (and more expensive) bullets, I've ended up standardizing on the AMAX.
                          Being one that enjoys handloading and uses brass to its bitter end, let's say that I can get an average of 5 shots per case. Now that $.45 case becomes $.09 per case per shot. So subtract $.36 per round which comes to $.48 per round. Much better. Probably comes out even better with Lapua brass. To be honest, I haven't worn out either Hornady or Lapua brass because I'm still working on my fireformed 7.62 Russian Short brass which I (mistakenly) bought waaay too much of.

                          On top of that, my time is either being used handloading (which I enjoy) or working at a job (which I don't) to earn the money to buy factory rounds. Either way....

                          I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your point. I really wish I had listened a couple years ago to those who said it was more cost-effective to buy Lapua brass (when it could be found) than to fireform. I now have a lot of cases that have reduced powder capacity and probably won't last as long.

                          Oh yeah, I like to mostly shoot less expensive bullets as well. Especially for what my Grendels will be used for, hunting and short range target practice. The 120 Remington Core-Lokt is available at Midway for about $.20 apiece in bulk. I've found others even cheaper on sale at times.

                          Just my $.02.

                          Will

                          ETA: Ok, I just read your previous post and now it makes sense. If you're going to handload the factory rounds multiple times then yes, it makes sense to buy factory Hornady for the brass. Unless (like in my case as stated above) one doesn't mind shooting cheaper bullets.

                          Never mind. Carry on.
                          Last edited by Guest; 09-04-2011, 03:06 PM.

                          Comment

                          • pinzgauer
                            Warrior
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 440

                            #14
                            Yep, the point of the math was not saying to not reload, only that buying brass & reloading is not any real savings over shooting factory, then reloading.

                            Especially if you like the 123g amax's. But the math is not much different even with the cheapest bullets you can find, which is normally speer hotcores at $18-19/box. So you save 6-7 cents/round and shoot a cheap bullet. Though I guess if you shoot 100g you may be able to find other cheap bullets.

                            I don't begrudge my IMI 7.62x39 brass, as I was shooting when others were waiting for unobtainium. I'm pretty sure I could sell my remaining for what I paid for it, or more. But for now I'm just running through it. I'm getting 6-8 reloads on the IMI, and retiring when the pockets get loose. (I mark them if the priming pressure is light, then retire after firing). I used to get splits where the barrel lugs scored the case shoulder after several reloads, but with some polishing and lot's of rounds that is no longer an issue.

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