reloading software question

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  • Secret_Squirrel

    reloading software question

    Who makes a good program for reloading? On the other site i know there was some discussion about a program that spit out some controversial loads for the grendel but i dont remember the name.

    I would like to start taking my reloads to the next level and not follow a book all the time, and branch out to other powders. What is a good program for doing this, or is there no such program?

    Thanks

  • #2
    Unless you have deep pockets and a propensity for working with chemical and physical modeling software, you're pretty much stuck with QuickLoad. I bought it and when I plug in results from loads I have already worked up and shot over a chrony, I have yet to have QL come even close to my results. You can go to the Hodgdon reloading site, look up a caliber load that QL has support for and plug in Hodgdon's values and you'll be hard pressed to get QL to agree with Hodgdon's data. To me, that speaks volumes for the program. From my personal experience. QL almost always overestimates the velocity and pressure. That may be the program's author's deliberate attempt to force users to start 10% low and work up. That's me speculating. Chris Long has a white paper online that explains which parameters to massage to make QL agree with your real world results. If you Google his name and quickload, you should be able to find it. I'm not totally comfortable with modifying a formula's constants to get the result to match my expectations. That's a slippery slope. On the occasions where I could massage the parameters to match my results, the resultant coefficients only worked within the scope of that exact load result I was analyzing. If those parameter changes were made to the powder's characteristics, the process fell apart when I changed the physical variables like a different bullet weight, COL, etc. If I changed the physical characteristics to make it work, then when I changed powders, the process once again fell apart. It's like trying to level the table with one short leg by cutting and trying the other three legs. Again, I emphasize that this has been my experience with QuickLoad. I bought it with unrealistic expectations, assuming it would accurately model performance that matched my real world results right out of the box. I suspect there are just "too many legs on that table".

    I have relegated QL to the role of something to play with, but not rely upon to produce an absolute reliable result. Still, it's fun to play with, albeit expensive fun.

    Hoot

    Comment

    • Secret_Squirrel

      #3
      Well that is a bummer. I really wanted to start taking handloading to the next level, and branch out from the books and just refer to them as possible guides.

      One question. Does QL produce safe loads to start with? If it does, it still might be useful. I have been reloading for almost 30yrs, and finally want to go oitside the normal box for a change.

      Thanks

      Comment

      • Bill Alexander

        #4
        If it was possible to simply accurately model loads, myself, the ammo companies and the military would probably not have hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in equipment, staff and ranges.

        I think I have mentioned that QL is actually theoretically correct, if you can obtain and correlate the input data for the dynamic you are examining.

        Comment

        • LR1955
          Super Moderator
          • Mar 2011
          • 3355

          #5
          Originally posted by Secret_Squirrel View Post
          Well that is a bummer. I really wanted to start taking handloading to the next level, and branch out from the books and just refer to them as possible guides.
          SS:

          This is an interesting comment. Can I ask how you define 'the next level' in terms of handloading? I ask this because the ammo and bullet manufacturers seem to have attained a very high level of performance given the huge amount of variables involved with ammunition and rifles.

          So, out of interest -- what do you define as being 'the next level' in terms of handloading?

          LR1955

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Secret_Squirrel View Post
            ...snip...Does QL produce safe loads to start with? If it does, it still might be useful...snip

            Thanks
            I have yet to produce a load based upon QL that was unsafe. My experience so far has been that they come out more tame than it predicts. The one time I had when a load came out hotter was because I put an incredibly retentive crimp on the cartridge. I caught a driving band groove with a deep, square-edged stab crimp on some 450 Bushmaster loads and it held onto the bullets too well. That was not QL's fault.

            Hoot

            Comment

            • Secret_Squirrel

              #7
              Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
              SS:

              This is an interesting comment. Can I ask how you define 'the next level' in terms of handloading? I ask this because the ammo and bullet manufacturers seem to have attained a very high level of performance given the huge amount of variables involved with ammunition and rifles.

              So, out of interest -- what do you define as being 'the next level' in terms of handloading?

              LR1955
              Sorry for lack of detail, im typing on my phone and i dont always get my full point across.

              For me, the next level is developing loads using powders for a cartridge that arent published. An example would be people trying leverevolution powder in the grendel along with using 8208. These last few years have seen me taking my knowledge of ballistics and expanding it greatly. Now i would like to try to expand my knowledge in reloading. However it seems that i might not have enough background understanding or desire in chemistry to do this.

              I like to tweek and tinker, i repair and program computers, i work on cars and like to develope loads for my guns and try to get as much accuracy as i can from what i have. I am by no means an excellent shooter, but i am an individual driven by knowledge in things i like. It would be safe to say that i develope handloads that would be more accurate then what myself or my guns are capable of doing, but i get the satisfaction of knowing that these are mine, i developed them for my gun. Lately, my father (who started me reloading at age 13), comes to me to develope loads for his guns, and that makes it all worth it. My biggest suprised was when his friend 40+ years started asking me for help in component choice.

              To sum it up, my taking it to the next level, means having a better understanding and being able to look at other powders to use in some of my guns. Im sure there are cartridges that the companies dont look at anymore, that might benefit from some of the new powders.

              Comment


              • #8
                You could try going to http://ammoguide.com/?catid=456 where you will find 103 load recipes for the Grendel. Pick a load that looks interesting and click "View" and you will get a page with details for that load. If a barrel length is listed, then a "Velocity Estimator" button should be visible just above and to the left of the cartridge diagram on that page. Click on the button, and you can access the velocity estimator to get velocity estimates for changed barrel lengths as well as changed bullet and powder weights.

                The software doesn't calculate pressures, so you will, of course, need to work up the loads to assure that the pressures are safe.

                You will also need to pay a nominal annual fee for a subscription. It has served me well!

                PS: You could also go directly to the Velocity Estimator at http://shootersnotes.com/calculator/velocity-estimator/ to get the same compute engine without having to subscribe, but you will have to enter ALL of the information yourself...
                Last edited by Guest; 08-31-2011, 07:33 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  QL is just another tool or reference one can use when working up loads. No, it's not perfect or an absolute, but it is interesting and very informative if you take the time and learn how to use it. I have several rifle/loads that QL is spot on with and several that it is off. That said, I can say the same for many of my rifle/loads that are published and tested it written form as well. As far as the Grendel is concerned, QL is very conservative with many powder/bullet combos and very close with others. It has been said many times on this forum and a few others that QL should not be used for the Grendel cuz it lists certain powder/bullet combos as safe when in reality they are way over pressure. I personally have yet to see any QL generated load data for the Grendel that would be considered over pressure compared to actual pressure tested data. If such data exists I would like to see it and run the numbers through my QL.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here is a little QL generated data, compare with AA data if you wish.


                    Code:
                    Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
                    Bullet             : .264, 107, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1715
                    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
                    Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
                    Powder             : Vihtavuori N135
                    
                    Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
                    incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
                    CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
                    
                    Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
                     %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
                    
                    -20.0   87    21.84   2093    1040   22927   4608     91.7    1.633
                    -18.0   89    22.39   2143    1091   24385   4745     92.8    1.591
                    -16.0   91    22.93   2194    1143   25942   4876     93.9    1.551
                    -14.0   93    23.48   2244    1196   27606   5002     94.9    1.511
                    -12.0   96    24.02   2294    1251   29384   5121     95.8    1.472
                    -10.0   98    24.57   2345    1306   31285   5234     96.6    1.434
                    -08.0  100    25.12   2395    1362   33321   5339     97.3    1.397
                    -06.0  102    25.66   2445    1420   35500   5436     98.0    1.362
                    -04.0  104    26.21   2494    1478   37837   5525     98.5    1.326
                    -02.0  107    26.75   2544    1537   40344   5605     99.0    1.290
                    +00.0  109    27.30   2593    1597   43036   5676     99.4    1.254
                    +02.0  111    27.85   2642    1658   45930   5737     99.7    1.220  ! Near Maximum !
                    +04.0  113    28.39   2690    1719   49044   5789     99.9    1.187  ! Near Maximum !
                    +06.0  115    28.94   2738    1781   52399   5831    100.0    1.156  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                    +08.0  117    29.48   2786    1844   56014   5862    100.0    1.125  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                    +10.0  120    30.03   2833    1907   59885   5889    100.0    1.095  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                    
                    Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
                    Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                    +Ba    109    27.30   2708    1742   52998   5410    100.0    1.161  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                    Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                    -Ba    109    27.30   2427    1399   34403   5636     94.2    1.373
                    Last edited by Guest; 09-01-2011, 08:36 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here is a little QL generated data, compare with AA data if you wish.

                      Code:
                       Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
                      Bullet             : .264, 107, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1715
                      Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
                      Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
                      Powder             : Ramshot TAC
                      
                      Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
                      incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
                      CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
                      
                      Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
                       %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
                      
                      -20.0   80    23.60   2236    1187   28652   5029     88.4    1.498
                      -18.0   82    24.19   2289    1245   30555   5186     89.6    1.458
                      -16.0   84    24.78   2343    1304   32588   5339     90.8    1.419
                      -14.0   86    25.37   2397    1365   34762   5488     91.9    1.381
                      -12.0   88    25.96   2451    1427   37087   5631     92.9    1.344
                      -10.0   90    26.55   2505    1491   39576   5768     93.8    1.306
                      -08.0   92    27.14   2559    1556   42245   5900     94.7    1.269
                      -06.0   94    27.73   2613    1622   45105   6025     95.6    1.233  ! Near Maximum !
                      -04.0   95    28.32   2666    1689   48173   6142     96.3    1.199  ! Near Maximum !
                      -02.0   97    28.91   2720    1758   51462   6253     97.0    1.166  ! Near Maximum !
                      +00.0   99    29.50   2774    1828   54969   6355     97.6    1.134  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                      +02.0  101    30.09   2827    1899   58731   6448     98.2    1.103  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                      +04.0  103    30.68   2880    1971   62778   6533     98.7    1.073  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                      +06.0  105    31.27   2934    2045   67137   6608     99.1    1.044  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                      +08.0  107    31.86   2987    2119   71839   6673     99.4    1.016  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                      +10.0  109    32.45   3039    2195   76920   6728     99.7    0.989  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                      
                      Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
                      Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                      +Ba     99    29.50   2899    1996   65796   6238    100.0    1.057  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                      Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                      -Ba     99    29.50   2606    1614   44681   6164     91.5    1.235  ! Near Maximum !

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Code:
                         Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
                        Bullet             : .264, 107, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1715
                        Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
                        Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
                        Powder             : Vihtavuori N135
                        
                        Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
                        incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
                        CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
                        
                        Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
                         %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
                        
                        -20.0   87    21.84   2093    1040   22927   4608     91.7    1.633
                        -18.0   89    22.39   2143    1091   24385   4745     92.8    1.591
                        -16.0   91    22.93   2194    1143   25942   4876     93.9    1.551
                        -14.0   93    23.48   2244    1196   27606   5002     94.9    1.511
                        -12.0   96    24.02   2294    1251   29384   5121     95.8    1.472
                        -10.0   98    24.57   2345    1306   31285   5234     96.6    1.434
                        -08.0  100    25.12   2395    1362   33321   5339     97.3    1.397
                        -06.0  102    25.66   2445    1420   35500   5436     98.0    1.362
                        -04.0  104    26.21   2494    1478   37837   5525     98.5    1.326
                        -02.0  107    26.75   2544    1537   40344   5605     99.0    1.290
                        +00.0  109    27.30   2593    1597   43036   5676     99.4    1.254
                        +02.0  111    27.85   2642    1658   45930   5737     99.7    1.220  ! Near Maximum !
                        +04.0  113    28.39   2690    1719   49044   5789     99.9    1.187  ! Near Maximum !
                        +06.0  115    28.94   2738    1781   52399   5831    100.0    1.156  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                        +08.0  117    29.48   2786    1844   56014   5862    100.0    1.125  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                        +10.0  120    30.03   2833    1907   59885   5889    100.0    1.095  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                        
                        Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
                        Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                        +Ba    109    27.30   2708    1742   52998   5410    100.0    1.161  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                        Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                        -Ba    109    27.30   2427    1399   34403   5636     94.2    1.373

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Code:
                           Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
                          Bullet             : .264, 107, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1715
                          Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
                          Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
                          Powder             : Vihtavuori N140
                          
                          Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
                          incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
                          CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
                          
                          Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
                           %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
                          
                          -20.0   84    22.88   2162    1110   26100   4725     91.1    1.557
                          -18.0   86    23.45   2213    1163   27803   4866     92.2    1.516
                          -16.0   88    24.02   2265    1218   29621   5002     93.3    1.475
                          -14.0   91    24.60   2316    1274   31564   5132     94.3    1.437
                          -12.0   93    25.17   2367    1332   33642   5256     95.2    1.399
                          -10.0   95    25.74   2419    1390   35865   5375     96.0    1.362
                          -08.0   97    26.31   2470    1449   38246   5486     96.8    1.325
                          -06.0   99    26.88   2521    1510   40796   5590     97.5    1.288
                          -04.0  101    27.46   2572    1572   43534   5686     98.1    1.252
                          -02.0  103    28.03   2623    1634   46472   5775     98.6    1.217  ! Near Maximum !
                          +00.0  105    28.60   2673    1698   49628   5854     99.0    1.184  ! Near Maximum !
                          +02.0  107    29.17   2724    1763   53034   5925     99.4    1.152  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                          +04.0  110    29.74   2774    1828   56702   5986     99.7    1.121  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                          +06.0  112    30.32   2824    1894   60649   6038     99.9    1.091  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                          +08.0  114    30.89   2873    1961   64885   6079    100.0    1.062  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                          +10.0  116    31.46   2923    2029   69454   6110    100.0    1.034  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                          
                          Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
                          Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                          +Ba    105    28.60   2786    1844   59966   5636    100.0    1.103  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                          Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                          -Ba    105    28.60   2515    1502   40263   5774     93.8    1.291

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Code:
                             Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
                            Bullet             : .264, 107, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1715
                            Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
                            Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
                            Powder             : Vihtavuori N540
                            
                            Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
                            incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
                            CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
                            
                            Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
                             %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
                            
                            -20.0   86    24.00   2203    1153   26848   5011     90.8    1.536
                            -18.0   88    24.60   2257    1210   28657   5164     92.0    1.495
                            -16.0   90    25.20   2311    1268   30596   5313     93.1    1.453
                            -14.0   92    25.80   2365    1328   32676   5456     94.1    1.414
                            -12.0   94    26.40   2418    1389   34910   5593     95.0    1.375
                            -10.0   96    27.00   2472    1452   37308   5724     95.9    1.338
                            -08.0   99    27.60   2526    1516   39888   5847     96.7    1.299
                            -06.0  101    28.20   2580    1581   42665   5963     97.4    1.261
                            -04.0  103    28.80   2634    1648   45660   6071     98.0    1.225  ! Near Maximum !
                            -02.0  105    29.40   2687    1716   48891   6170     98.6    1.190  ! Near Maximum !
                            +00.0  107    30.00   2741    1785   52382   6260     99.0    1.156  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                            +02.0  109    30.60   2794    1855   56148   6339     99.4    1.123  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                            +04.0  111    31.20   2847    1926   60198   6409     99.7    1.092  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                            +06.0  114    31.80   2900    1999   64580   6468     99.9    1.061  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                            +08.0  116    32.40   2953    2072   69334   6516    100.0    1.032  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                            +10.0  118    33.00   3006    2147   74501   6552    100.0    1.003  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                            
                            Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
                            Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                            +Ba    107    30.00   2859    1942   63337   6058    100.0    1.076  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                            Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                            -Ba    107    30.00   2576    1576   42256   6146     93.8    1.262

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Code:
                                Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
                              Bullet             : .264, 107, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1715
                              Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
                              Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
                              Powder             : Hodgdon BL-C2
                              
                              Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
                              incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
                              CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
                              
                              Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
                               %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
                              
                              -20.0   85    25.60   2277    1231   28628   5376     88.0    1.485
                              -18.0   87    26.24   2336    1296   30692   5550     89.3    1.443
                              -16.0   89    26.88   2395    1362   32920   5719     90.6    1.402
                              -14.0   91    27.52   2454    1431   35330   5881     91.8    1.362
                              -12.0   93    28.16   2514    1501   37938   6036     92.9    1.321
                              -10.0   95    28.80   2574    1574   40764   6184     94.0    1.280
                              -08.0   97    29.44   2634    1648   43832   6323     95.0    1.240
                              -06.0  100    30.08   2694    1724   47167   6453     95.9    1.201  ! Near Maximum !
                              -04.0  102    30.72   2754    1802   50799   6573     96.7    1.163  ! Near Maximum !
                              -02.0  104    31.36   2814    1882   54761   6682     97.4    1.127  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                              +00.0  106    32.00   2875    1963   59094   6780     98.1    1.092  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                              +02.0  108    32.64   2935    2046   63843   6866     98.6    1.059  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                              +04.0  110    33.28   2995    2131   69055   6939     99.1    1.026  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                              +06.0  112    33.92   3056    2218   74758   6998     99.5    0.994  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                              +08.0  114    34.56   3116    2307   81035   7042     99.7    0.964  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                              +10.0  116    35.20   3176    2397   87972   7072     99.9    0.934  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                              
                              Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
                              Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                              +Ba    106    32.00   3013    2156   72601   6589    100.0    1.012  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
                              Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
                              -Ba    106    32.00   2686    1713   47107   6596     91.7    1.199  ! Near Maximum !

                              Comment

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