Help with fine tuning my load...

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  • LRS_Ranger

    Help with fine tuning my load...

    Can someone help me with my loading? I have attached a picture of the groups that I shot today. All groups were 5 round groups and shot at 100 yards.

    123gr Scenar, 2.265 COAL
    CCI 450
    Lapua brass
    2 thou of neck tension

    I loaded them all with Redding dies, and the runout is less than .003 with the average around .0015" The groups on the bottom that were shot with AA2520 I think that I seated them a little deeper at 2.261 or so. Should I seat a bit deeper at 2.257 or so and try that out? In any case the AA2520 seems to be a bit more consistant. My barrel is a 20 inch Kriger chambered in .264LBC. I'm pretty sure that it's not me just shooting crummy today, as all my other loads with 748 have shot similarly. With my .308 and handloads I'm shooting significantly smaller groups, so I don't think that my loading is the weak link either. Thoughts?



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  • bwaites
    Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 4445

    #2
    The 29.5 load has great vertical. That horizontal stringing is a little interesting. That to me looks like wind?

    Are those 1" squares, 2" squares?

    Comment

    • LRS_Ranger

      #3
      The inner white part of the square is .95 inches, according to my calipers. I agree it has great vertical, however, there was no wind. I've tried two highly recommended powders with a bullet that should be really good, and been very careful in my loading. Other than changing bullets (I still have 700 of them so I don't see that happening soon) the only other thing I can think of is to seat them a little bit deeper and see what happens.

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree about wind being the cause of the horizontal dispersion noted on the 29.5 group in the first row.. If you have very little vertical dispersion, you are almost always on the right track for your load. The load of 29.3 just to the left of it is very nice too. I would try 29.5 again and make sure you aren't bothered by wind.

        The next thing would suggest is try smoking the bullets with soot from a candle or something like that. Then drop them into the chamber and see if you get the lands leaving marks on the bullet. I find that my best accuracy with the Scenar bullets comes with 10-15 thou jump before the bullet engages the rifling. Pressures seem to even out a little more that way. Plus, I don't like seating bullets so close to the end of the magazine as it often causes malfunctions in the magazine. 2.260 to 2.265 is about the max you can seat those bullets for mags going in AR type rifles. I prefer 2.260 myself.

        Overall, your groups are really pretty good. If all the groups are the same size, then seating depth needs to be addressed more. For example, I recently tested a bunch of 260 loads at 200 yards. All the groups were .7 to .85moa. My seating depth was off, so I did another run with bullets seated 10 thou further into the case. Groups went from .5 to 1moa...so I found the issue. Many rifles will shoot reasonably well with the seating depth off. They start shooting really well when the seating depth is corrected.

        If it were my rifle, I would try the 29.3 and 29.5 grain load with the bullets seated 5, 10 and 15 thou deeper into the case and see what you get. That is only six test loads to try, and I'll bet your sweet spot is in that area somewhere.

        Comment

        • LR1955
          Super Moderator
          • Mar 2011
          • 3355

          #5
          Originally posted by LRS_Ranger View Post
          Can someone help me with my loading? I have attached a picture of the groups that I shot today. All groups were 5 round groups and shot at 100 yards. 123gr Scenar, 2.265 COAL CCI 450 Lapua brass 2 thou of neck tension

          I loaded them all with Redding dies, and the runout is less than .003 with the average around .0015" The groups on the bottom that were shot with AA2520 I think that I seated them a little deeper at 2.261 or so. Should I seat a bit deeper at 2.257 or so and try that out? In any case the AA2520 seems to be a bit more consistant. My barrel is a 20 inch Kriger chambered in .264LBC. I'm pretty sure that it's not me just shooting crummy today, as all my other loads with 748 have shot similarly. With my .308 and handloads I'm shooting significantly smaller groups, so I don't think that my loading is the weak link either. Thoughts? [ATTACH=CONFIG]23[/ATTACH]
          LRR:

          No, it wasn't you. I disagree with Bill and Noone. It was the bullet, not the load, neck tension, seating depth, and particularly not the wind. Not at 100. And the groups really are not bad either. Can the 123 Lapua's for short range and test them when you get around 500 where their potential as a hybrid VLD is more likely to be seen.

          Some guys get performance out of them and others don't, no matter what they do. Same with the other VLD or hybrid VLD's like the 123 Sierra or the 107 / 108 Sierra and Lapua respectively.

          Get some 120 Match Kings and shoot them. I bet you will see better and way more consistent performance, day in and day out. Test the 123's when you get past 300 and if possible 500 where their design may be of value even if their accuracy remains mediocre. Guys shoot them at longer ranges to get what ever hypothetical advantage they offer in terms of winds due to their design. At close ranges, they do not give an edge, are way more expensive, and I doubt you will see them shooting as consistently as a standard ogive match grade bullet.

          LR1955

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by LRS_Ranger View Post
            Can someone help me with my loading? I have attached a picture of the groups that I shot today. All groups were 5 round groups and shot at 100 yards.

            123gr Scenar, 2.265 COAL
            CCI 450
            Lapua brass
            2 thou of neck tension
            ...snip...
            Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does "2 thou" of neck tension mean? Does it mean your neck ID is .262, providing .002 less opening than the .264 bullet and the resulting neck tension is all you use?

            Thanks,

            Hoot

            Comment

            • LRS_Ranger

              #7
              You are correct Hoot. LR, I will give the 120's a try. Due to Infedel470's generosity, I have some 120 SMK's and Noslers to try out.

              I am interested to see if seating makes a difference with the 123's. I haven't heard someone say that their gun doesn't shoot them well yet. I am guessing that giving them a slight bit more run at the lands might result in a bit more consistency. Sitting a couple thou short it doesn't take much variation to make them touch the lands, and that would mess things all up, or at least result in some of the inconsistency I'm seeing. In a few of those groups one flyer screwed up a pretty good .6 inch group.

              Comment

              • bwaites
                Moderator
                • Mar 2011
                • 4445

                #8
                LRS,

                I certainly would agree with LR1955 and try a different bullet. My rifle LOVED the 100 and 120 grain Noslers and shoots both into .25 inch groups at 100 (well, it did until I had 5000+ rounds down the tube!). He has had great success with the Sierra 120's, and truthfully, they seem very easy to make shoot well. (We shot one of his new Grendels at 400-700 yards in some wind last week and had no problem banging the steel at 600-700 yards with no problems once the rifle was zeroed. I would NOT have thought they would shoot that well at that range, but they did.

                Most rifles like the Lapua, and it shot well under MOA in my Grendel, but never as tight as the Noslers.

                Good luck!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LRS_Ranger View Post
                  Originally posted by Hoot View Post
                  Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does "2 thou" of neck tension mean? Does it mean your neck ID is .262, providing .002 less opening than the .264 bullet and the resulting neck tension is all you use?
                  You are correct Hoot.
                  Not to keep interrupting the flow, but that is all the tension you rely on? I ask because I've been using heavier bullets in heavier AR calibers and with only that much tension, the bullets would no doubt move forward upon seating in the chamber. I'm assuming with lighter bullets, that is not as big a factor, or non-existent? So, no seating die crimp and no Lee factory crimp? That is how I load my .260 Rem bolt gun, but thought with autoloaders, you needed more tension to anchor the bullet against inertia.

                  Again, sorry to be asking questions not related to the thread.

                  Hoot

                  Comment

                  • LRS_Ranger

                    #10
                    Not at all Hoot, I posted this to get input on what I can be doing better, so I welcome ideas and criticism! I have not put any crimp on my .308 ammo which shoots pretty nice, so I didn't put a crimp on my grendel either. The bullet is pretty tight, and I highly doubt that it's moving forward upon chambering; however, crimping could reduce one more variable so will try that as soon as I get a crimp die.

                    The reason that I am thinking that increasing seating depth might help is that I have been loading using an overall length, as I don't have a way to measure the length to the ogive. In the past, I've had very consistent COAL's when seating with a Redding competition seating die. However, I've noticed with the 6.5, or at least with this lot of bullets, that COAL varies by up to 4 or 5 thousandths. If I am extremely close to the lands, at one end of the variation I will be slightly jamming the bullet. Obviously that would change the velocity and impact of that single round. By going a tad deeper, I hope to avoid that. I'm still going to start looking at the 120's, but I will load a few of the 123's deeper and see if that makes any difference. Once again, thanks for the help everyone!
                    -Nathan

                    Comment

                    • LR1955
                      Super Moderator
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 3355

                      #11
                      Originally posted by LRS_Ranger View Post
                      Not at all Hoot, I posted this to get input on what I can be doing better, so I welcome ideas and criticism! I have not put any crimp on my .308 ammo which shoots pretty nice, so I didn't put a crimp on my grendel either. The bullet is pretty tight, and I highly doubt that it's moving forward upon chambering; however, crimping could reduce one more variable so will try that as soon as I get a crimp die.

                      The reason that I am thinking that increasing seating depth might help is that I have been loading using an overall length, as I don't have a way to measure the length to the ogive. In the past, I've had very consistent COAL's when seating with a Redding competition seating die. However, I've noticed with the 6.5, or at least with this lot of bullets, that COAL varies by up to 4 or 5 thousandths. If I am extremely close to the lands, at one end of the variation I will be slightly jamming the bullet. Obviously that would change the velocity and impact of that single round. By going a tad deeper, I hope to avoid that. I'm still going to start looking at the 120's, but I will load a few of the 123's deeper and see if that makes any difference. Once again, thanks for the help everyone!
                      -Nathan
                      Nathan:

                      On the last Grendel forum one of the members linked us to I believe is the Berger Bullet site where there was a method used to determine how far off the lands those VLDs should be seated. You may want to search the Berger site although I am not positive that is the right one. Needless to say, with a gas gun it is probably better to seat them off the lands and the way this guy described it, you could find the right depth with only ten or twelve shots fired.

                      As for figuring out where the bullet strikes the lands, another guy had a neat way of finding this out. He sized and then cut a slot down both sides of the neck of a worn out Grendel case with a Dremel tool and one of those very thin cutting disks. He put the bullet into the neck long, put it into the chamber and slowly closed the bolt until it went into battery. Then slowly ejected the case. If you don't cut the slits too wide, there is enough neck tension to hold the bullet yet allow it to seat into the case when it hits the lands. It is a great technique to use.

                      LR55

                      Comment

                      • LRS_Ranger

                        #12
                        Awesome.. I will try that out. I did a similar thing with my 308, but cutting the slits would be an excellent way of getting just the right tension. I will also look at the Berger site. I guess there's nothing else to do but load 'em up and try playing with the seating depth and see how the 120's shoot. Not sure when I will get to the range, maybe some night this week if I am lucky.. Once again, thanks to everyone for helping me troubleshoot this..
                        -Nathan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Another method to find lands is to load a dummy round long. Then polish the bullet with some 0000 steel wool. Insert into the rifle and close as slowly as you can on an auto loader. Remove and look at the bullet under a magnifying glass. If the bullet is into the lands you should see marks equally spaced around the bullet. Measure the length of the mark and this tells you how far into the lands the dummy round is seated. Adjust your die accordingly.

                          I have found that Sierra bullets like to jump into the lands, while Bergers like to be slightly into them. YMMV

                          Comment

                          • bwaites
                            Moderator
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 4445

                            #14
                            Here is the information from the Berger site. Their new site is a little tougher to find stuff on.

                            "Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
                            1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
                            2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
                            3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
                            4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

                            Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
                            1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
                            2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
                            3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
                            4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

                            Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

                            Regards,
                            Eric Stecker
                            Master Bulletsmith"

                            Comment

                            • LRS_Ranger

                              #15
                              Hey RStewart, if you do this and only see a mark on one side of the bullet, would this mean? Runout?

                              Comment

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