factory ammo discussion

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  • txgunslinger

    factory ammo discussion

    so it seems to me like the 6.5 grendel is gaining in popularity. That being said, I figured I would start a thread on factory ammo and pick other peoples brains about the subject. My question is, what are the odds of other mainstream ammo companies ever hopping on the Grendel train (Federal premium, Winchester, Remington)? Is this even a remote possibility or will we always be limited to AA, Hornady and Wolf? I think it would be pretty neat to see Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silver tips myself. It seems as if the only thing keeping the Grendel from becoming more popular is the lack of factory ammo, it also seems as if alot of potential grendel shooters are lost to the 6.8SPC for this reason. Is there any chance of this problem changing anytime?
  • stanc
    Banned
    • Apr 2011
    • 3430

    #2
    Originally posted by txgunslinger View Post
    My question is, what are the odds of other mainstream ammo companies ever hopping on the Grendel train (Federal premium, Winchester, Remington)? Is this even a remote possibility or will we always be limited to AA, Hornady and Wolf?
    Since neither Federal nor Winchester has shown any inclination to produce 6.8 SPC, I doubt that they'd be interested in the even smaller market offered by 6.5 Grendel shooters.

    As for Remington, I haven't seen anything to suggest they might want to, either.
    It seems as if the only thing keeping the Grendel from becoming more popular is the lack of factory ammo, it also seems as if alot of potential grendel shooters are lost to the 6.8SPC for this reason. Is there any chance of this problem changing anytime?
    There are a number of factors that have caused people to choose 6.8 SPC over 6.5 Grendel. The greater variety of factory loads is one; the number and type of bullets designed specifically for the cartridge is another; and there are three 6.8 SPC magazine manufacturers, compared to one for 6.5 Grendel.

    IMO, what would benefit the popularity of 6.5 Grendel far more than just another manufacturer of expensive hunting and target ammo, is low-cost ammo for plinking and blasting. That, and good, reliable magazines.

    Comment

    • pinzgauer
      Warrior
      • Mar 2011
      • 440

      #3
      Not to be augmentative, but besides RP, Silverstate, and Hornady who loads SPC ammo? None of the three you mentioned other than RP to my knowledge.

      Not saying the Grendel has more loads, it does not. But about the only SPC ammo I see widely available is RP stuff at higher prices than I can get Grendel ammo for. And it's crap ammo.

      I do occasionally see Hornady in SPC, but it's as expensive or more.

      I think S&B makes an SPC loading, but I've never seen it retail, and it's more than we can buy H grendel for. So no Wolf/PPU equivilent.

      Actually, looking on Midway it appears Doubletab & Corbon both have some SPC loadings as well, but both are $1.50-2.50 a shot, so not what I'd call mainstream. Nor is Silverstate for the same reason.

      Likewise, there are three mfg's making Grendel brass.

      Also, popular mail order ammo sellers like Aim Surplus & Wideners have not carried SPC ammo, but have (and do have) Grendel.

      Not that these are absolute tests, it's just that I don't see the SPC has having a huge advantage over Grendel in this regard. And given the suppliers, I'd probably rather have the mfg's who load for Grendel then the current SPC mix. (But it would be nice to have some more loading variety)

      If you want to buy ammo at wal-mart or your local mom & pop gunstore neither Grendel or SPC would be recommended. I know there are exceptional stores that do carry one or the other, but it's getting harder to find stores that carry any non-major player (.243, .308, 30/06, 7mm Mag, etc).

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with what Stan said about plinking ammo and reliable magazines. But, I'd like to point out that I don't know one single person that owns a 6.8 but have been seeing more and more Grendels at the local ranges.

        Comment

        • pinzgauer
          Warrior
          • Mar 2011
          • 440

          #5
          Originally posted by stanc View Post
          the number and type of bullets designed specifically for the cartridge is another;
          I have a slightly different view on this- SPC needed some better bullets as most of the common 6.8mm sizes were sub-optimal for the cartridge. We have that issue to some extent with Grendel, as there are clearly bullets which do *not* work well. But I think we had more in the optimal weight range for Grendel.


          and there are three 6.8 SPC magazine manufacturers, compared to one for 6.5 Grendel.
          This is true if you like $30-40 mags. But not true if you are trying to say that garden variety mags are widely available for SPC.

          Barrett mags are nice, but I could not afford to shoot SPC if that was my option. Given I've never had problems with the (much maligned) Cprod Grendel mags I have, I just can't say it's been an issue for me. Would I like to see more MFG's? Sure. But not if it's $40 mags!

          Everybody wants magpul for Grendel it seems, but they don't make them for SPC either.

          IMO, what would benefit the popularity of 6.5 Grendel far more than just another manufacturer of expensive hunting and target ammo, is low-cost ammo for plinking and blasting. That, and good, reliable magazines.
          Personally, I don't see ammo getting much cheaper for either Grendel or SPC than the current wolf offering unless a steel case option surfaces. That option is at least supposedly in motion for Grendel, and due to the case similarity from the likely eastern Europe mfg's, I expect we'll see it before we see SPC steel cased ammo. Even RP's cheapest SPC ammo is significantly more than the Wolf Grendel. And I think the PPU (Wolf) MPT is better ammo!

          Comment

          • txgunslinger

            #6
            I am fully aware that Federal Premium and Winchester do not make SPC ammo, I only used them as an example of mainstream manufacturers. I do not want this to turn into another 6.8 vs 6.5 thread. I mentioned the SPC because I have actually seen ammo for it on the shelves at local gun shops and even my local academy. I have yet to see Grendel ammo on the shelf anywhere locally and have only seen it a couple of times at gun shows, sure you can order it but in my opinion many people will be more apt to shoot a gun in a particular cartridge if ammo can be found readily availiable.

            Comment

            • Drifter
              Chieftain
              • Mar 2011
              • 1662

              #7
              To some extent, growth in any direction would seemingly be dependent upon AA and their licensing.

              Perhaps the popularity of the 6.8 is partly because the cartridge is easier for manufacturers to get into, and thus easier for consumers to get into.

              Complete 6.8 uppers are available from Noveske, Yankee Hill Machine, DPMS, Bushmaster, Daniel Defense, Barrett, Rock Rivers Arms, Ruger, etc. Many of these brands are likely recognizable to the casual consumer, and are often available without waiting from a variety of sources. More rifle / upper sales increase the likelihood of more options regarding bullets, ammo, mags, etc.

              Of course, AA owns the rights and can do it any way they want.

              Besides, I'm not sure that many casual consumers ever shoot at ranges that exceed 300 yards, and thus wouldn't recognize the virtues of the 6.5 anyway.

              Don't get me wrong; I too would like to see more options. But I'm not holding my breath. The cartridge serves my needs quite well as is.
              Drifter

              Comment

              • stanc
                Banned
                • Apr 2011
                • 3430

                #8
                Originally posted by pinzgauer View Post
                This is true if you like $30-40 mags. But not true if you are trying to say that garden variety mags are widely available for SPC.
                What I was trying to say is just what I said: There are three manufacturers of 6.8 mags, and one of 6.5 mags. I have no idea of availability.
                Personally, I don't see ammo getting much cheaper for either Grendel or SPC than the current wolf offering unless a steel case option surfaces. That option is at least supposedly in motion for Grendel, and due to the case similarity from the likely eastern Europe mfg's, I expect we'll see it before we see SPC steel cased ammo. Even RP's cheapest SPC ammo is significantly more than the Wolf Grendel. And I think the PPU (Wolf) MPT is better ammo!
                Perhaps I didn't phrase that well. While the Wolf MPT is indeed relatively low cost, the ultra-low cost Wolf steel cased ammo will, IMO, greatly improve popularity of 6.5 Grendel.

                Of course, that assumes it is good quality and works well in rifles. If it should turn out to be as bad as the Wolf soft-point stuff...

                Comment

                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  #9
                  Originally posted by txgunslinger View Post
                  I do not want this to turn into another 6.8 vs 6.5 thread.
                  Then you shouldn't have mentioned 6.8
                  I mentioned the SPC because I have actually seen ammo for it on the shelves at local gun shops and even my local academy. I have yet to see Grendel ammo on the shelf anywhere locally and have only seen it a couple of times at gun shows, sure you can order it but in my opinion many people will be more apt to shoot a gun in a particular cartridge if ammo can be found readily availiable.
                  I quite agree, and I'm a good example of what you said. I've long wanted to shoot 6.5 Grendel, but have been turned off by the non-availability of ammo locally.

                  Comment

                  • Bill Alexander

                    #10
                    There is a progression to such things and endless patience becomes a necessary virtue.

                    Grendel seems to advance, not in a methodical series of steps like a mechanical device, but rather it behaves more like an geological event. We go for long time periods without visible advance and then a series of things all occur within a short period of time. This is not to say that my life with the Grendel mimics this. While the community observes stagnation, my work load does not cease and ongoing "campaigns" require constant attention.

                    I think that this next few weeks will see a few absolutely huge occurances. The sequence is preluded by SAAMI acceptance which occured a few months ago. The official press release is in draft but I think many will welcome ( and be surprised by) the new landscape.

                    The next event is one that has taken four years of my existance with this cartridge to bring to reality. It is unrelated to the above but the timing seems opertune. The key is actually within the above posts and if sucessful it might be the single biggest advance for bringing Grendel into mainstream popularity. Cheap ammunition cannot be underestimated as a driving force for the whole industry.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sounds exciting...can't wait to hear.

                      Comment

                      • pinzgauer
                        Warrior
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 440

                        #12
                        Originally posted by txgunslinger View Post
                        I mentioned the SPC because I have actually seen ammo for it on the shelves at local gun shops and even my local academy. I have yet to see Grendel ammo on the shelf anywhere locally and have only seen it a couple of times at gun shows
                        Understood, and I was not answering trying to debate the Grendel/SPC. A couple of observations:

                        - For the non5.56 AR's shops tend to stock ammo for what they sell. If the shop is a SPC shop, I never see Grendel. And vice versa. And I've never seen a shop that stocked both!

                        - Last Spring I started seeing RP UMC SPC by the pallet at shows. And asked them why they carried it and not Grendel. The answer was surprising.... seems like they sold Hornady Grendel as fast as they got it in but the SPC was just not moving. I think some of it was supply & demand, with RP really having opened the pipeline, especially on the UMC.

                        Originally posted by Drifter
                        Perhaps the popularity of the 6.8 is partly because the cartridge is easier for manufacturers to get into, and thus easier for consumers to get into.
                        I have a different read- SPC reached a tipping point when RP got behind it and really started promoting, making rifles, etc. My belief is that's what led many of the others to get in as well.

                        Whatever the cause, wider availability has paid off for SPC, but I don't see it "winning" as it's not really a race unless a major military decides to adopt one of the mid-power cartridges in leau of 5.56.

                        Same for 300BLK. Lots of noise and fanfare because RP bought Blackout rights, released rifles & Ammo. And there will be some growth for folks that want either subsonic loads or a tacticool 30/40 alternative.

                        If what you are saying is that Grendel is a niche cartridge right now, I'd agree. But it's a very effective niche, which meets my needs. While more ammo mfgs would help, I don't see Federal or Win loading either SPC or Grendel anytime soon. Nor do I think it would significantly increase grendel sales, but you never know. Cheap steel cased FMJ? Better mag situation? I agree with Stanc those would help more.

                        Comment

                        • txgunslinger

                          #13
                          I think steel case fmj would be great, I also think not necessarily more manufacurers is what we need, I just really would like to see it on a shelf somewhere, it's pretty sad when you are at a gun show and the biggest ammo vendor laughs at you when you ask for 6.5 Grendel. Also I think it could be benificial if hornady made more than one offering, maybe add the sst, spire point, or v-max to the line up if not all three

                          Comment

                          • bwaites
                            Moderator
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 4445

                            #14
                            Originally posted by txgunslinger View Post
                            I think steel case fmj would be great, I also think not necessarily more manufacurers is what we need, I just really would like to see it on a shelf somewhere, it's pretty sad when you are at a gun show and the biggest ammo vendor laughs at you when you ask for 6.5 Grendel. Also I think it could be benificial if hornady made more than one offering, maybe add the sst, spire point, or v-max to the line up if not all three
                            It's often related to local habits. I do know of several places that stock both, and when I asked one owner about Hornady 6.5, the owner said, "I can't keep it in stock. I sell it out within a day or two of getting it." He has stacks of 6.8 from Hornady and Silver State, (he's less than 100 miles from the SS factory), but told me that the reason he has stacks is that he has bought it on sale several times, and it just sits. I'm the only Grendel owner he recognizes by sight, he says, but the ammo just flows out the door.

                            As for gun shows, they are hit and miss...if it is cheap, the guys buy it and sell a ton of it. If its not, they laugh when you ask. It's not demand for them, its availability at a cheap price, then demand. 18 months ago I couldn't find .380 ANYWHERE, but the demand was HUGE...now its shifted back some.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That's huge news that the Grendel has finally gotten SAAMI specs. As we see more and more waves of shooters doing what their great-grandfathers and grandfathers did after WWI and WWII: choosing the most popular military-style service rifle and sporterizing it, we will see more and more demand for the Grendel for hunting. As with the Mauser action, yesteryear's battle rifle design-copied by armies all over the globe...then sporterized by smiths and the big rifle companies, the same is happening with the AR15. Since many shooters don't want to or are not legally permitted to hunt deer with a .223 Rem, they will naturally want a different caliber for their AR15.

                              As they go through the caliber debate, looking over all the available information and bullet selection for the AR15 frame, most will settle on the 6.5 Grendel. That is just the simple reality of it. AR10 frames are heavier and at least twice the price to get into when building your own, and have way more recoil with the .308-based cases. The Grendel just makes a ton of sense looking at all these factors for the AR15 hunter.

                              When I go into the big gun stores, the sales reps are doing everything they can to throw bolt guns out the door at prices that are less than what I can buy a Remington 700 short-action receiver and bolt assembly for, yet the AR15 market is on-fire. Every 2 or 3 months, a new AR15 company appears out of the blue, and common components are usually back-ordered from companies that have established themselves as a reputable provider with good customer support. We will see continued dominance of the rifle market by AR15's, but not just for practical rifle shooting, LE, and security applications only...but increasingly in the hunting market. I would wager that the Grendel is the main general purpose cartridge currently-available to fill most of people's hunting needs right now in the AR15 platform.

                              Comment

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