Anyone tried AA2200?

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  • longdayjake

    Anyone tried AA2200?

    Just like the title says. Anyone tried it? I have some for my 6.8 loads and I am curious about what loads I might start with. Think its too fast?
  • bwaites
    Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 4445

    #2
    You might make it work with the lighter bullets, but everyone that I can remember has tried it has migrated to slightly slower powders like X-Terminator.

    BUT...we used to think that Benchmark was the same deal and now there are Benchmark loads all the way up to 123 Grain bullets!
    Last edited by bwaites; 09-21-2011, 08:32 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Code:
       Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
      Bullet             : .264, 100, Nosler BalTip 26100
      Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.250 inch or 57.15 mm
      Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
      Powder             : Accurate 2200
      
      Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
      incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
      CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
      
      Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
       %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
      
      -20.0   74    21.60   2188    1063   29372   5830     88.9    1.294
      -18.0   75    22.14   2239    1113   31181   6010     90.0    1.263
      -16.0   77    22.68   2290    1164   33098   6186     91.1    1.233
      -14.0   79    23.22   2341    1216   35129   6358     92.1    1.204
      -12.0   81    23.76   2391    1270   37281   6526     93.0    1.175
      -10.0   83    24.30   2442    1324   39563   6688     93.9    1.143
      -08.0   85    24.84   2492    1379   41982   6844     94.7    1.112
      -06.0   86    25.38   2543    1436   44547   6995     95.5    1.082  ! Near Maximum !
      -04.0   88    25.92   2593    1493   47269   7138     96.2    1.054  ! Near Maximum !
      -02.0   90    26.46   2643    1551   50158   7275     96.9    1.026  ! Near Maximum !
      +00.0   92    27.00   2693    1611   53227   7404     97.4    0.999  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
      +02.0   94    27.54   2743    1671   56489   7525     98.0    0.973  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
      +04.0   96    28.08   2793    1732   59959   7638     98.5    0.948  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
      +06.0   97    28.62   2842    1794   63652   7742     98.9    0.924  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
      +08.0   99    29.16   2892    1857   67588   7837     99.2    0.901  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
      +10.0  101    29.70   2941    1920   71785   7923     99.5    0.878  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
      
      Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
      Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
      +Ba     92    27.00   2807    1750   62232   7331     99.9    0.935  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
      Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
      -Ba     92    27.00   2543    1436   44472   7167     91.6    1.082  ! Near Maximum !

      Comment

      • longdayjake

        #4
        Those loads are pretty slow compared to aa2230 and xterminator. I guess aa2200 may not be the best choice.

        Comment


        • #5
          Not really, according to QL and Accurate Powders.

          Code:
           Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
          Bullet             : .264, 100, Nosler BalTip 26100
          Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.250 inch or 57.15 mm
          Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
          Powder             : Accurate 2230
          
          Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
          incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
          CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
          
          Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
           %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
          
          -20.0   77    24.00   2157    1033   27091   5995     85.8    1.353
          -18.0   79    24.60   2213    1087   28933   6194     87.1    1.316
          -16.0   81    25.20   2268    1143   30910   6389     88.4    1.280
          -14.0   83    25.80   2324    1199   33032   6580     89.7    1.245
          -12.0   85    26.40   2380    1258   35310   6764     90.8    1.211
          -10.0   87    27.00   2436    1318   37757   6942     91.9    1.176
          -08.0   89    27.60   2493    1380   40387   7113     93.0    1.140
          -06.0   91    28.20   2549    1443   43216   7276     94.0    1.105
          -04.0   93    28.80   2605    1507   46261   7431     94.9    1.071  ! Near Maximum !
          -02.0   95    29.40   2662    1574   49543   7576     95.7    1.039  ! Near Maximum !
          +00.0   97    30.00   2719    1641   53084   7711     96.5    1.007  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +02.0   99    30.60   2775    1710   56909   7835     97.2    0.977  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +04.0  101    31.20   2832    1781   61049   7947     97.8    0.948  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +06.0  103    31.80   2889    1853   65535   8048     98.4    0.919  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +08.0  104    32.40   2946    1927   70408   8135     98.9    0.892  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +10.0  106    33.00   3002    2002   75711   8209     99.3    0.865  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          
          Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
          Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
          +Ba     97    30.00   2857    1813   64222   7648     99.7    0.931  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
          -Ba     97    30.00   2536    1429   42498   7394     89.4    1.109

          Code:
           Cartridge          : 6.5 mm Grendel
          Bullet             : .264, 100, Nosler BalTip 26100
          Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.250 inch or 57.15 mm
          Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
          Powder             : Ramshot X-Terminator
          
          Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
          incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
          CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
          
          Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
           %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
          
          -20.0   75    23.20   2253    1127   29534   6304     91.3    1.292
          -18.0   77    23.78   2306    1180   31466   6492     92.4    1.257
          -16.0   79    24.36   2359    1235   33519   6674     93.4    1.224
          -14.0   81    24.94   2412    1291   35679   6850     94.4    1.191
          -12.0   82    25.52   2464    1349   37957   7019     95.2    1.159
          -10.0   84    26.10   2517    1407   40376   7180     96.0    1.127
          -08.0   86    26.68   2570    1466   42948   7333     96.8    1.095
          -06.0   88    27.26   2622    1526   45683   7477     97.4    1.065  ! Near Maximum !
          -04.0   90    27.84   2674    1588   48594   7612     98.0    1.036  ! Near Maximum !
          -02.0   92    28.42   2726    1650   51693   7737     98.5    1.008  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +00.0   94    29.00   2777    1713   54993   7852     99.0    0.981  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +02.0   95    29.58   2829    1777   58510   7956     99.3    0.955  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +04.0   97    30.16   2880    1841   62262   8049     99.6    0.930  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +06.0   99    30.74   2930    1907   66266   8130     99.8    0.905  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +08.0  101    31.32   2981    1973   70546   8199     99.9    0.882  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          +10.0  103    31.90   3031    2040   75124   8256    100.0    0.859  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          
          Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
          Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
          +Ba     94    29.00   2891    1856   65385   7607    100.0    0.915  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
          Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
          -Ba     94    29.00   2619    1523   44897   7724     94.0    1.069  ! Near Maximum !
          Last edited by Guest; 09-21-2011, 11:27 PM.

          Comment

          • longdayjake

            #6
            This is a great example of why quickload should not be trusted. According the Western Powders, AA2230 and X-Terminator are exactly the same powder. Quickload is showing a huge difference between the two. Also, I have personally been shooting the 100 grain TTSX with 28 grains of AA2230 and I am getting 2795-2800 fps from my 20" barrel. Granted, that is a different and longer bullet than the Nosler but it shows me that quickload is not to be trusted with everything.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by longdayjake View Post
              This is a great example of why quickload should not be trusted. According the Western Powders, AA2230 and X-Terminator are exactly the same powder. Quickload is showing a huge difference between the two. Also, I have personally been shooting the 100 grain TTSX with 28 grains of AA2230 and I am getting 2795-2800 fps from my 20" barrel. Granted, that is a different and longer bullet than the Nosler but it shows me that quickload is not to be trusted with everything.
              You are correct, QL generated data cannot be trusted. As all load data cannot be trusted as an absolute. All load data comes with a Start,a Max and a Warning, it is up to the individual handloader to to find what is and isn't safe in his or her firearm.

              Lets take a look at Ramshot, Accurate and QL data for the 6.5 Grendel shall we.

              Ramshot XT
              100gr Nosler BT
              Ramshot data,20 inch barrel, 29.7gr Max, 2709fps, 51,920psi
              QL data, 20 inch barrel, 28.4gr MAX, 2726fps, 51,639psi

              I would call this pretty close. In fact I would call this damn close.

              AA 2230
              100gr Nosler BT
              Accurate data, 20 inch barrel, 28.1gr Max, 2636fps, 51,600psi
              QL data, 20 inch barrel, 29.7gr Max, 2691fps, 51,304psi

              That is not to far off as well, Velocity and pressure are very close and the charge is 1.6gr more than accurate data.

              Lets compare Ramshot to Accurate.

              100gr Nosler BT
              20 inch barrel
              Ramshot X-t, 29.7gr Max, 2709fps, 51,920psi
              Accurate 2230, 28.1gr Max, 2636fps, 51,600psi

              It appears that Ramshot and Accurate differ as much as 1.6gr with the same powder. Just about the same as QL difers.

              Now you can take what I posted with whatever sized grain of salt you choose. I was only trying to help. You asked for help with load data for Accurate 2200 in the Grendel. There is none and nobody has tried it. I gave you what I thought would help you start your load development with 2200. Sorry, I won't do it again. Personally I would rather run the numbers with QL and not trust them than ask the internet world to supply me with a Start/Max load for an untested powder. You take care now ya hear.

              Comment

              • longdayjake

                #8
                I don't want you to think I was somehow complaining that you used quickload. I was just noticing a discrepancy between what quickload said and what actually is. So, am I to understand that aa2230 and x-term are not actually the same powder?

                Comment


                • #9
                  So, am I to understand that aa2230 and x-term are not actually the same powder?
                  They are the same powder, now. Were they always? Duno. Hell, AA 2230 wasn't the same as AA 2230 depending on which Continent it was manufactured in not to many years ago.. Now that Western Powders is the distributor of both, maybe we can find some consistency from lot-to-lot and powder to powder.
                  In talking with Johan at Western Powders a lot-to-lot variation of 3% is the norm for most powders. That 3% variation can easily account for the discrepancies posted above, as can a whole host of other variables.
                  As I said, QL is not an absolute, and neither is any pressure tested data.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have read on this forum and a few others that you have witnessed QL generated load data that is dangerous and un-safe compared to actual published pressure tested load data. I would appreciate it if you could give me some bullet/powder combos where this has occurred so I can run the numbers myself. I have yet to find this dangerous scenario.

                    Thanks

                    Comment

                    • bwaites
                      Moderator
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 4445

                      #11
                      mseric,

                      That data used to be on the old forum, but I haven't been able to recover much from there. Bill Alexander has repeatedly warned that the data generated by QL for the Grendel can be dangerous, so I have taken him at his word.

                      I do not know/remember what specific loads caused the abnormal pressures, but I do recall that Bill told me that it was a function of non-linear pressures with certain powders.

                      It isn't ALL powders, or ALL loads, just some, and since it occurs, you can't be confident in the numbers it creates.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I do not know/remember what specific loads caused the abnormal pressures, but I do recall that Bill told me that it was a function of non-linear pressures with certain powders.
                        It would be nice if you could find this mysterious load? I have run every powder/bullet combo published by AA, Hodgdon, Accurate, Ramshot VV/Laua and Hornady, QL data is on par or on the conservative side with all of these. Nothing I have found or can generate with QL can achieve what you , Bill A and LJake claim. If this QL generated load truly exists, please take the time to find it, post it and set me straight.

                        Comment

                        • longdayjake

                          #13
                          I have never claimed that quickload was dangerous. The only thing I have ever said about quickload is that in my experience real life data has been different from what quickload predicts. That could all be combination of elevation, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, longitude, etc. that differs from where I am to what people post from quickload. I guess what I am trying to say is that quickload does not help me KNOW what will happen. However, I appreciate you running it for me so that I can figure out a starting load for AA2200.
                          Last edited by Guest; 09-23-2011, 03:24 PM.

                          Comment

                          • bwaites
                            Moderator
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 4445

                            #14
                            Originally posted by mseric View Post
                            It would be nice if you could find this mysterious load? I have run every powder/bullet combo published by AA, Hodgdon, Accurate, Ramshot VV/Laua and Hornady, QL data is on par or on the conservative side with all of these. Nothing I have found or can generate with QL can achieve what you , Bill A and LJake claim. If this QL generated load truly exists, please take the time to find it, post it and set me straight.
                            I'd love to if there was a way to do so. Unfortunately, it can only be corroborated with actual data, and no one I've heard uses QL to develop load data for factory testing. The findings happened because a load that was being developed was found to be unsafe because of pressure spikes, even though the QL data didn't show that after the fact.

                            If I remember correctly, it occurs because under some circumstances the powders do not act in a linear fashion, and QL can't predict that.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I contacted Accurate quite a while back when I first started loading for the Grendel. I asked AA what they recommend for use in the Grendel and they were saying that you should only use 2230. I have always been using 2520 and it works well for me and I live up in Washington State so I don't have to worry about the heat issues that most of the lower states have to deal with. Unfortunately, AA doesn't even list any loading data for the 2520 anymore.

                              Comment

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