HSM LEO bullets

[stanc]

From the FYI department:

Hunting Shack Munitions is offering a line of interesting penetrator bullets for .223, .338, and .50 which have various urban law enforcement roles in mind.

http://thehuntingshack.com/catalog/copper.htm

http://thehuntingshack.com/images/338LAPannotated1.JPG
http://thehuntingshack.com/images/glasspenetrator.JPG
http://thehuntingshack.com/images/CQE.JPG
http://thehuntingshack.com/images/LAP.JPG

[rkflorey]

I don't know about the rest but I have test fired the early versions of the glass penetrator. HSM claimed match accuracy but we only could get 1.5 moa at best from 8 different ROBAR rifles. The 1.5 moa was inconsistant.

[LRRPF52]

With the average police designated marksman precision shot taken between 37 and 50 yards, 1.5 MOA will still put you well within a CNS box easily. You would still be good out to 100yds with a 1.5" kill box/circle.

[jwilson1985]

ya even most le snipers only ingadge within 300 yrd and thats far for them

[LRRPF52]

LE doesn't have "snipers", but DM's. The training and employment of a military sniper is an entirely different ball game than a LE designated marksman, except for their common employment as eyes-on in a close target recce, and their ability to use optics to monitor and report on different aspects of an objective, but only squared away SRT's and LE leadership take advantage of the assets available to them in that capacity. 100yds would be an extremely long shot in most LE DM shoots, let alone 300yds. In the civilian world, distance and the law as to justifiable lethal force brings things in much closer. At 100yds, a designated shooter will have a difficult time ID'ing a human face versus another, even with the greatest of glass in 12 o'clock sunlight. Combined with the constraints of urban environments, setting up on scene, and the law, LE shooters realistically are looking at 37yd shots more often than not, or closer...which is a great argument for an accurized AR with bullets that have a high sectional density if barriers are involved.

The exceptions are the teams doing recce on a rural target, often counter-narcotics, where suspects using dogs and other early warning systems preclude the ability to get up on the objective. Professional narcotics distribution hubs use cameras and dogs, as well as electronic trip sensors for different layers of their perimeter security, so they can hide, flush, or destroy large quantities of evidence before a warranted LE unit has a chance to get on the premises for a physical search. These rare types of point target objectives call for maximum stand-off by eyes-on human assets.

[rkflorey]

As far as Military and Le Snipers deploying differently I agree. The rules of engagment For LE differ in that you rarely get to take a shot and when they do the situation is escalating and the Sniper is protecting civilians or his team. LE snipers are basically overwatch and Intel gatherers.
Snipercraft did a survey several years ago and asked LE agencies if they deployed Snipers and if they had any shootings. Some agencies would not respond but of those that did totaled over 200 shootings in 20+ years. The ranges were from 20 feet to 250 yards. The average shot occured at approx. 50 yards.
Having deployed as an LE Sniper for over 16 years at ranges from 20 feet to over 350 yards I disagree that 100 yards was an extreme shot or that I could not ID a suspect at 100 yards. Closer was always preferred but I never felt out of my comfort zone deploying at the longer ranges.
Training is the key. Making fast shots at short/long ranges and unusual positions, knowing your limitations and the capabilities of your weapon and ammo give you confidence. The best and most accurate equipment you can get is always better.
As far as an accurized AR, are we talking 223 or something bigger? The smaller calibers are not suitable for general deployment because the situations you encounter as to ranges, barriers, and penetration issues are too variable. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Most narcotics suspects use live counter intel or dogs. They are not nearly as tech savvy as TV makes them appear.

[LRRPF52]

My whole mindset on what a sniper is revolves around the definition being a specially-selected and highly-trained soldier, who provides fire support for friendly forces, targeting enemy personnel and equipment with extreme prejudice and a high probability of 1st-round interdiction, while controlling indirect and close air-support assets, and providing battlefield intelligence to commanders in support of combat operations. Most of the sniper missions I participated in or witnessed during training and real-world deployments were in support of the units we were attached to, versus the Hollywood type stuff that is often portrayed.

There are a broad range of operational and organizational structures in the LE community when it comes to designated marksmen, with some really great teams, and others still working out their roles, techniques, tactics, equipment, and procedures. There are quite a few real-world shoot incidents involving police marksmen with one shooter, and a few where the teams ran through their engagement sequence more like a military 2-man team. The huge difference is the environment, ROE, and mission duration. Most sniper missions overseas in both urban and rural regions have been measured in days or weeks, whereas the LE marksman goes home usually once every 24 hrs. Granted, it's just to get some rest often, with little interaction with family, but the contrast in being overseas in a military setting and hours from home is black and white.

I want to be clear that the term "sniper" is indicative of a military environment, and is not a good idea for LE agencies to use anyway, due to the public misperception and legal terminology for post-incident documentation and natural legal course. In no way should the terminology knock the fine work that LE shooters often do, saving many innocent lives over the years. My hat's off to those who do it well and uphold the higher standards of decision-making and precision marksmanship discipline required to resolve a high-risk scenario when appropriate. I'll address the nature of high-level narco-traffickers via PM.

[LR1955]

I don't know about the rest but I have test fired the early versions of the glass penetrator. HSM claimed match accuracy but we only could get 1.5 moa at best from 8 different ROBAR rifles. The 1.5 moa was inconsistant.

RF:

Looking at the picture of that thing, I am surprised they didn't keyhole. No doubt their accuracy was lousy. Probably a good enough design to go through a variety of glass but most likely any solid would do the same.

LR55

[warped]

Gene, you are spot on, aerodynamically those projectiles will fly like a brick.

Using a well constructed bullet design barriers are not really any problem at all, besides, there are more left in the magazine for after the penetration is completed.

As you already know that is why a ToT shot is done to defeat glass in a hostage situation so that one breaks the glass, away from the hostage and the next hits the BG in the BHG.

[JASmith]

...As you already know that is why a ToT shot is done to defeat glass in a hostage situation so that one breaks the glass, away from the hostage and the next hits the BG in the BHG.
The Oakland SWAT team apparently hadn't learned this when their sharpshooter tried to take out a perp holding about a dozen hostages. Glass broke, bullet deflected, perp ran down the line of hostages shooting each as he ran by, SWAT entered and finished him. Total sequence was less than five seconds -- made for "good" TV news coverage, but a fair number of hostages died from his bullets. The only good thing is that the 6-8 SWAT rounds through his chest meant that he couldn't brag about his accomplishment.

I think someone forgot that storefront glass is really thick...

[LRRPF52]

I saw the footage of that. A .338 LM or maybe even a 7mm WSM or .300 WM would have been in order, if nothing more than an AP round of 7.62x51 at a minimum. This is the type of scenario I was referring to also when discussing the difficulty in target ID, versus a subject in the open who you've probably seen video of, have DMV photos of, photos provided by family, or surveillance photos, especially when you are able to recognize their gait and posture from video.

I've long been a proponent of stop n' rob businesses mandating dynamic firearms and violence immersion training for clerks, tellers, and on-site managers. Where I live, we have a high saturation of private firearms ownership, and murder rates are at 1960-1961 levels per capita. We just had an attempted hold-up where the perp used a fake handgun, and the elderly store owner said, "This one isn't." And chased him out of the business and down the street.

LE agencies are best advised to sample glass thickness of all the likely hostage scenario businesses in their jurisdiction, and task their in-house firearms personnel with finding solutions to the barrier penetration issues, versus relying on FBI stats and outside findings. If you want it done right, do it yourself.