Scenar vs Amax

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  • Scenar vs Amax

    Any real world comparison of BC and drop at extended ranges between these two bullets (The 123's)? How about accuracy comparisons?
  • bwaites
    Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 4445

    #2
    Both very accurate, the Scenar has a sligthly higher BC, about .547 to .510 if I remember the numbers right.

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    • #3
      I know the listed BC, but wondering if anybody has shot them at similar velocities at long range to see if the Scenar actually shoots flatter.

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      • #4
        I've been working up loads for my grendel using both A Max & Scenar with 8208 & Leverevolution powders. I hit an accuracy node with A Max but it is very narrow, IOW, .1 gr up or down & the load doesn't seem as accurate. The Scenar seems to have a little more play in the accuracy node. You can go up or down .1 or maybe .2 & still maintain the same accuracy or close. If that doesn't make sense, let me put it a little different way, I had a little more success with the Scenar & accuracy seemed a little better. I shot a 5 shot group at 200yds with the Scenar measuring 1.486" & one measuring 1.400". With the A Max, best I got was 1.64"& loads above & below that one were in the mid 2" range. I am not a great shooter, though. Most of the variations may well have been due to shooter error. This was sitting on a bench with my bipod on the front & a pillow on the butt of the gun. Not sandbagged, etc. This is a Noveske upper, with Satern cut rifling 24" barrel. I will chrono this load this week. I ran a couple of the A Max through the chrono for results of 2490fps but I need to shoot a few more plus the Scenars to get good numbers.
        MLM

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        • #5
          Just went out yesterday with A-max's and SMK's. The Amax's were VERY touchy by my standards. Groups were either sub-1" or 2+. The SMK's were very good groupers with almost any load. Other than the flyers I'd pitch in once in a while I got holes-touching groups from several loads with the BTHP SMK. My best A-max group (not measured yet) on the other hand looks to be about .7". The worst was up near 3". My worst group with the SMK was just a tit over 1".

          My impression, at the 100/107gn level the A-max are very much a hunting bullet and not necessarily a match long range bullet. I'll eventually dial in a perfect load for the a-max's but it looks like for long range funtimes it's just better to stick with the bullets designed for match accuracy. Another note on the a-max, they're kinda short and the points are really sharp. Don't get one under a fingernail... hurts like hell.

          I worked up 6 loads for each and boy mlmiller1 ain't jokin. .1gn matters.

          On a complete tangent, I forgot how much BL-C2 smells when it's burning, I also had no idea the Alexander Arms Millenium Brake punched you in the face with every single shot. The blast is directed straight back at the shooter. I want a new brake. One that won't make me flinch. It's also phenomenally loud on the back end of the gun with that brake on (not baggin' on the guys but seriously, you have to admit...)
          Last edited by Guest; 10-03-2011, 01:31 PM.

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          • Drifter
            Chieftain
            • Mar 2011
            • 1662

            #6
            Originally posted by blackfoot View Post
            Any real world comparison of BC and drop at extended ranges between these two bullets (The 123's)? How about accuracy comparisons?
            With 123's, the Scenars have been spot-on for me out to 600 yards using the trajectory calculator on the JBM Ballistics website. Of course, pertinent local info, such as altitude and atmospheric conditions, must be entered correctly. A chronograph is very helpful in making sure that the right muzzle velocity is entered. The calculations for the A-max on the same website are also accurate, although I haven't tested quite enough to say that they are spot-on too.

            As for accuracy, in the barrels that I have tested, there seems to be a pretty good chance that a barrel will like at least one of these 123gr bullets. But it might take a little experimenting to find the right load. I haven't noticed any pattern to claim that one bullet is more accurate than the other, as each individual barrel might show a preference for either.
            Drifter

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Drifter View Post
              With 123's, the Scenars have been spot-on for me out to 600 yards using the trajectory calculator on the JBM Ballistics website. Of course, pertinent local info, such as altitude and atmospheric conditions, must be entered correctly. A chronograph is very helpful in making sure that the right muzzle velocity is entered. The calculations for the A-max on the same website are also accurate, although I haven't tested quite enough to say that they are spot-on too....
              The data in the JBM website is combed over pretty thoroughly to assure the best representation of the bullet's performance. One can choose from two BC measures for the 123 gr Scenar. One is the G7 and the other "Lapua bullets with "(CD)" in the description use the Drag Coefficients supplied by Lapua instead of the ballistic coefficient."

              Were you able to tell which one works better for you?

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              • Drifter
                Chieftain
                • Mar 2011
                • 1662

                #8
                I'm using the G7 BC version for 123gr Scenar on JBM.
                Drifter

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                  The data in the JBM website is combed over pretty thoroughly to assure the best representation of the bullet's performance. One can choose from two BC measures for the 123 gr Scenar. One is the G7 and the other "Lapua bullets with "(CD)" in the description use the Drag Coefficients supplied by Lapua instead of the ballistic coefficient."

                  Were you able to tell which one works better for you?
                  That's because Lapua has radar data for the Scenars, which is what you want to use for absolute trajectory values. If you look at bench rest shooters and the top 3 bullets they use, you will see SMK's, Scenars, and Bergers in a distant 3rd. I've been working with all of them in my .260 Rem, as well as others, and haven't been able to get the AMAX's to group that well at all.

                  I have some 123gr AMAX's for the Grendel, as well as 123gr Scenars I will have to compare, but I don't have a match-grade barrel fr the Grendel, just a decent 16" AA/Shaw pipe that I've squeezed .9 MOA out of with 123gr Scenars before.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Drifter View Post
                    I'm using the G7 BC version for 123gr Scenar on JBM.
                    Thanks!

                    I ran the 123 Scenar with a MV of 2405 ft/sec (14.5 in barrel) and got a difference in drop of 0.4" at 600 and 1.7" at 1000 yards between the G7 and the CD.

                    The differences were just about the same for a muzzle velocity of 2620 ft/s (24" barrel).

                    I guess it would be hard to tell which is better using tests...

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                    • #11
                      The Coefficient of Drag models from the Doppler track really apply for the long-range crowd getting out past 1000m, but the closer you can be to POA-POI even at the 1000 and closer ranges, the better...in my book. When I've used the CD or G7 values, I've been spot-on POI with POA as I entered the dope in my elevation turret out to 500m, and 700m. It didn't matter what caliber, as long as I was using Scenars. Guys I know are really benefiting from the Doppler data at 2000m for more and more frequent 1st-round hits with .338LM.

                      To me, the 123gr bullets peter-out at 600m. In low or no-wind conditions, you can connect with them easily at 800 and further, but they really earn their money in the 300-600 range. No matter how you push them, they lose a lot of energy around 500-600, but not as fast as fatter projectiles that fit in your short-action .473" base cases. 2700fps with a 123gr Scenar about duplicates my .308 155gr Scenar load at 2820fps for trajectory, but the 6.5 beats it by .4 Mils for wind drift at 1000yds. 2700fps out of a Grendel with the 123gr is way over max loads for pressure, so 2600fps has 1 Mil more drop at 1000, and .2 Mils less wind drift than that .308 155gr Scenar load.

                      That .308 load starts to really suck past 600 though in real wind conditions, which is why I don't shoot .308 anymore. I've never achieved a 1st-round hit on silhouettes with that .308 load past 600m in competition, because the winds were just crazy. Compare a 139gr Scenar at 2800fps out of a .260 (8.8 Mils of drop at 1000yds, 2.1 Mils drift/10mph FV) Rem versus the .308, and you see why shooters have switched to .260 Rem in droves over the .308. Some bolt gun guys are running 139gr Scenars in the 2900fps + range. 2950fps w/139gr Scenar gives you 7.77 Mils of drop at 1000yds, and 1.94 Mils of wind drift.

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