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Sniper20
10-12-2011, 10:59 PM
Does any know of any company that does a Bolt Action Grendel? Or, would it be possible to get a barrel for a 5.56 bolt and replace it with the grendel without having to do extreme customizations?

bwaites
10-12-2011, 11:22 PM
Fairly easy to get a Grendel barrel and put it on one of the various rifles chambered for 7.62x39. I know CZ makes one, and possibly Savage as well.

Varoum
10-12-2011, 11:53 PM
You need this one and a new barrel http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/

YutYut
10-13-2011, 12:07 AM
Yes ive seen a few cz 527 conversions. Theres a review on one if you go gunmart.net

hm2 clark
10-13-2011, 01:28 AM
It's posible to do one on a .223 bolt, I love mine. Tell us which acton you want to convert and someone here will be able to walk you through it.

Sniper20
10-13-2011, 01:32 AM
Another thought... Should I just look at a 6.5 Creedmoor? Gives more punch and has a better range... Might do that, but was looking at improving accuracy... With the stuff that I hunt/shoot a bolt works good. I have not tested the Grendel on yotes yet, but I can't wait!

sgt_murf
10-13-2011, 02:12 AM
on the Savage forum (http://www.savageshooters.com/SavageForum/ )there has been some whom have used Savage Action for the Grendel by changing the bolt head (see SSS Sharp Shooter Supply for parts http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/ ). CSS also sells Savage Drop in barrels (http://www.competitionshooting.com/catalogue/category33/p1618 ) I don't know if that information meets your needs or not.
The 6.5-284 would also work for long range in a Savage or Remington even in a Winnie 30 with a Standard bolt face, but has a short barrel life.
I have heard that the Standard bolt face would work with the Grendel if one changed the Extractor but I do not recall the Link to the information

LRRPF52
10-13-2011, 02:16 AM
Another thought... Should I just look at a 6.5 Creedmoor? Gives more punch and has a better range... Might do that, but was looking at improving accuracy... With the stuff that I hunt/shoot a bolt works good. I have not tested the Grendel on yotes yet, but I can't wait!

It depends on what action size-length you want. If you go standard short action, I wouldn't even mess with a 6.5 Creedmoor since there is only one source of so-so brass for it, and it doesn't do anything .260 Rem can't do, while there are at least 5 sources of brass for .260 Rem, two or three of them being of high quality, especially Lapua now. You will have a heavier rifle, and more recoil of course.

A buddy of mine has a Cz527 chambered in 6.5 Grendel, and is getting 2650-2700 fps with 139gr Scenars, so that is matching 6.5x55 Swede velocities, if not giving the older actions a beasting, and nipping at the heels of .260 Rem velocities, with 15-18gr less powder. The Cz would make an excellent little white tail and even Moose or Elk bolt gun, that is lighter than any other bolt action out there in the short-action class.

recon562001
10-13-2011, 02:47 AM
I have a CCZ 527 done by Wayne York at www.oregunsmithingllc.com. It shoots .5 MOA but its a little pricy.

Varoum
10-13-2011, 10:00 PM
If CZ could offer the CZ 527 action only in the 7.62X39 caliber. They sell just the actions in .22 Hornet and .223 http://www.cz-usa.com/download/95/ bottom left

JASmith
10-14-2011, 01:38 AM
Who makes a barrel threaded for the Savage 10 / 110 series and chambered for the Grendel?

Sniper20
10-14-2011, 03:29 PM
As much as I would love to get a custom rifle like on the links listed, or convert something for hunting, I don't think that's much of an option for me at this point. Being in Iowa, there is no firearm on Deer, so I use bow and BP. And I think I am more for the target style anyhow... I have heard awesome things about the 6.5 Creedmoor in the Ruger M77 target rifle, so I was thinking of one of those, but not sure yet... I just like the idea of having a mid range in an AR and long range in a bolt that shoots the same bullet... Not as much clutter...haha.

Varoum
10-14-2011, 04:11 PM
It's posible to do one on a .223 bolt, I love mine. Tell us which acton you want to convert and someone here will be able to walk you through it.

Do you have a CZ 527 .223 converted in a 6.5 Grendel? If so, I would be very interested in this conversion process.

sgt_murf
10-14-2011, 04:29 PM
Who makes a barrel threaded for the Savage 10 / 110 series and chambered for the Grendel?
JA

CSS here:
http://www.competitionshooting.com/catalogue/category33/p1618
and the Savage forum has several sources:
http://www.savageshooters.com/

Varoum if you poke around on the CSS site there is a drop in barrel there for the CZ

Varoum
10-14-2011, 05:12 PM
If CZ could offer the CZ 527 action only in the 7.62X39 caliber. They sell just the actions in .22 Hornet and .223 http://www.cz-usa.com/download/95/ bottom left

Got CZUSA on Facebook and there are not available action only that is.

JASmith
10-14-2011, 05:19 PM
sgt_murph,

Many thanks!

Varoum
10-14-2011, 05:25 PM
Got CZUSA on Facebook and there are not available action only that is.

Got more from CZUSA throught Facebook

CZ-USA a écrit : « Our apologies. We do sell the action only, we do not sell barreled actions. Unfortunately, we do not have any available at this time. »

bwaites
10-14-2011, 05:30 PM
Varoum,

Although it will be slightly more, find a good price on a 7.62x39 CZ and replace the barrel with a Grendel barrel.

It seems a little strange that no one has actions right now!

Varoum
10-14-2011, 06:21 PM
You are right. Posted my adds yesterday.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=107678
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6250900#post6250900

Wish me luck

pinzgauer
10-14-2011, 10:24 PM
find a good price on a 7.62x39 CZ and replace the barrel with a Grendel barrel.

I'm wishing I had bought one of these a while back, they are now consistently $650'ish locally. Used to be down around $400 or so.

hm2 clark
10-15-2011, 01:21 AM
I was able to find a Mini Mauser (sold by charles daliy and remington) barreled action in 7.62x 39. A nice enough mini action for the money

sgt_murf
10-15-2011, 01:32 AM
I'm wishing I had bought one of these a while back, they are now consistently $650'ish locally. Used to be down around $400 or so.

I have not looked yet but what about gunbroker. I know sometime the Remmy 7.62x39 is listed as well as others? just a thought
found a CZ 597 listed for$540.00

sgt_murf
10-15-2011, 01:58 AM
http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/
sells/ convert your Savage 223 bolt heat to PPC bolt face $25.00 to convert $75.00 buys the whole bolt head complete with extractor ejector etc ----- change barrel about 300-425.00

usually one can find a ole Savage 110 etc that can be converted reasonable.
Found this on the Net:

Savage 110 Extractor Replacement
Reason for Replacement

The Savage 110/10 extractor is made from sintered metal and slides back and forth as it snaps over cartridge rims when a round is chambered. The tip which engages the cartridge groove also slides in the groove as the bolt is opened and closed. Therefore it can and will wear over time. Also, the tip can be damaged if a round sticks for any reason. Factory replacement extractors are available form several sources on the internet - including Gunpartscorp.com, midwayusa.com and savageparts.com.

In the case illustrated below, the standard Savage extractor is replaced by a Sharp Shooter Supply "PPC" extractor. This extractor tip is slightly longer to reliabily grasp the slightly smaller "Russian" case head of PPC and 7.62X39 cartridges. As described elsewhere, I found that the standard Savage extractor would work with commercial (Winchester) ammo, but not surplus 7.62X39 ammo
The way the extractor works is that it slides in a groove in the bolt head. Underneath is is a blind hole with a spring that pushes up a small detent ball. (Looks like a ball bearing.) The detent ball keeps the extractor in place, while allowing it to move back and forth slightly. The trick in removing the extractor is to not let the detent ball fly away when you slide the extractor out of the groove..The punch is used to push the extractor towards the center of the bolt. The fingers catch the detent ball so it doesn't get lost. Later savages have a groove that goes the full length of the bolt lug. Mine is blind so that you can only slide the extractor towards the center of the bolt.My new extractor just slid into place. (The SSS extractor is a machined piece - smother than the factory standard.) It may be necessary to depress the detent ball with the end of the punch on your bolt. Just be carefull not to let the detent ball get lost!

link to article:
http://www.switchbarrel.com/Extractor.htm

Varoum
10-16-2011, 08:01 PM
Did some reading on the CZ 527 6.5 Grendel conversion http://www.bing.com/search?q=CZ%20527%206.5%20Grendel&FORM=BB07LB&PC=BB07&QS=n

All and all it is a go. One think I liked best is the chamber pressure is higher in a bolt action rifle. Nice!




Here is what CZUSA has to say about selling CZ 527 chambered in 6.5 Grendel.

CZ-USA a écrit : « There are no plans to chamber the 527 in 6.5 Grendal at this time. We will forward your request to CZUB. Thx »

hm2 clark
10-18-2011, 12:38 AM
The CZ 527 is a great little action. My only 2 compaints are (1) the rifle is safed when the saftey is forward, not backward and (2) All the scope rings I have found sit the scope too high. My CZ Grendel was done by Brockman Arms.

Varoum
10-18-2011, 04:50 AM
All the scope rings I have found sit the scope too high.

very light
http://www.conetrol.com/images-pg/CZdt.jpg

http://www.hallmfg.com/html/scope_rings.html

PrecisionFirearms
10-18-2011, 05:14 PM
We build bolt action rifles in 6.5 Grendel using Lilja Barrels and Stiller Precision Actions. Also use the Accuracy International Stock. Prices start at 3800.

bwaites
10-18-2011, 05:29 PM
We build bolt action rifles in 6.5 Grendel using Lilja Barrels and Stiller Precision Actions. Also use the Accuracy International Stock. Prices start at 3800.

OUCH!!

All good stuff, but still, ouch!!

How about a version built off a Savage action as a budget model? That should come in well under $1500 and still allow a decent profit.

Sniper20
10-18-2011, 06:55 PM
That would be awesome, but if I'm going to spend that much on a rig, then I'm going to go with something bigger so I can really reach out and touch someone... From what I have read/seen I think I am going to look for a bolt 6.5 Creedmoor or maybe something like the .260. I think the Creedmoor is in my favor as I'm a ginormous Hornady fan... So I think I gotta stick with what works for me.

Varoum
10-19-2011, 06:35 AM
Is the CZ 527 mag able to accept OAL of 2.420? Quote below is from http://www.6mmbr.com/65grendel.html

6.5 Grendel Cartridge Specifications
Case length is 39mm. Case head diameter is .445". Case capacity is 35.0 grains of water and about 32.5 grains powder. The cartridge was developed to maximize performance in the AR15 platform. In that role, magazine-length loads are limited to 2.255" OAL. However, in single-round loading or in a bolt-action rifle, OAL can be extended with bullets up to 130 grains as far as 2.420".

patdaly
10-20-2011, 04:23 AM
That would be awesome, but if I'm going to spend that much on a rig, then I'm going to go with something bigger so I can really reach out and touch someone... From what I have read/seen I think I am going to look for a bolt 6.5 Creedmoor or maybe something like the .260. I think the Creedmoor is in my favor as I'm a ginormous Hornady fan... So I think I gotta stick with what works for me.

Give the Savage 12LRP in either 6.5 Creedmore or .260 Remy a look. Fortier ran a stock 6.5 Creed. with Hornaday factory ammo thru its paces and got something stupid like a .3 or .4 print at 100. You can get them on Gunbroker for under 900 new.

JASmith
10-20-2011, 06:30 AM
Give the Savage 12LRP in either 6.5 Creedmore or .260 Remy a look. Fortier ran a stock 6.5 Creed. with Hornaday factory ammo thru its paces and got something stupid like a .3 or .4 print at 100. You can get them on Gunbroker for under 900 new.
Add to that a decent scope and you get awful close to the $1500 bwaites suggested!

Sniper20
10-20-2011, 02:34 PM
I would be interested to see a model 10 with this on it:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/666123/choate-custom-tactical-rifle-stock-savage-10-short-action-staggered-feed-4275-screw-spacing-with-adjustable-length-of-pull-and-cheek-rest-varmint-barrel-channel-composite-black

I think something like that would be great for what I use... (hunting and target).

Varoum
10-20-2011, 03:17 PM
It is not out on the market yet but it will be soon


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g4X2AAqibwk

Sniper20
10-20-2011, 03:56 PM
Definitely sexy as stated in the video... What are the specs on that? What is the weight as well as the price (projected anyway) if you don't mind me asking... Anywhere I can read more on it?

Varoum
10-20-2011, 04:14 PM
I asked them for more info. The message I got back said: We have put you on an email list. Once we are ready to provide more info. You will receive an email...

http://www.eberlestock.com/2011%20Sniper%20System.htm

LRRPF52
10-20-2011, 04:45 PM
Give the Savage 12LRP in either 6.5 Creedmore or .260 Remy a look. Fortier ran a stock 6.5 Creed. with Hornaday factory ammo thru its paces and got something stupid like a .3 or .4 print at 100. You can get them on Gunbroker for under 900 new.

The Creedmore limits you to one source of brass...Hornady. I like Hornady products, and use them a lot. When it comes to brass, there are much better out there, so .260 Rem has much more appeal to the hand-loader, unless you can afford to load 1-time and throw the Hornady brass away. I get .3-.4 MOA accuracy with my .260 Auto-loader shooting 5-round groups, not 3-round, and any custom barrel/action/ammunition combination will yield sub 1/2 MOA loads in any of the (3) 6.5mm cartridges derived from the .308..i.e., the .260 Rem, 6.5x47 Lapua, and 6.5 Creedmoor. If you were to choose one of these over the .260 Rem, the Lapua would be the way to go, as it sucks less powder, and yields impressive velocities with its higher pressure limitations than either.

My partner had a custom RPA built in 6.5x47 Lapua, with a 25" barrel, and gets over 3000fps pushing the 140gr Berger VLD's. As I spotted for him in our last competition, he made numerous, consecutive, 1st-round hits on man-sized pop-up silhouettes at 900m in coastal wind conditions like it was fun with that rifle...truly impressive.

Sniper20
10-20-2011, 06:07 PM
The Creedmore limits you to one source of brass...Hornady.

Can't you convert .308 brass to the 6.5 CM? I have also heard excellent reviews on the 6.5x47 Laupa. What would the price difference be? Obviously the bullets are the same, but what is a good gun to get that cal in? What is the popularity in hunting applications? I know they are great for target, but target rifles don't always make good hunting rifles...

JASmith
10-20-2011, 06:18 PM
Can't you convert .308 brass to the 6.5 CM? I have also heard excellent reviews on the 6.5x47 Laupa. What would the price difference be? Obviously the bullets are the same, but what is a good gun to get that cal in? What is the popularity in hunting applications? I know they are great for target, but target rifles don't always make good hunting rifles...
Of course you can, but it's extra effort.

Further, unless you are worried about a trivial difference in barrel life, the added volume, availability of .260 ammunition and cases would seem to overwhelm the 6.5 Creedmore -- unless your really want to shoot the longer bullets seated way out and load from the magazine.

Hornady found a way to let you do that and still have close to .260 Rem ballistics by using their Superformance magic. Duplicating those ballistics with components available to handloaders may be a bit of a challenge.

Varoum
10-20-2011, 07:11 PM
I love Hornady products.

I have the Hornady's 8th edition reloading book next to me. A 140gr bullet both 24in barrel 7.5 twist rate Primer WSR Cases Hornady top speed with .260 is 2700fps with all 8 powder brand listed.

6.5 creedmoor is 2725fps with 4 powder brand listed out of 13. 6.5 Creedmoor is 2700fps with 7 powder brand listed out of 13. 6.5 Creedmoor is 2650fps with 10 out of 13. And 2600fps with 13 out of 13. From the same Hornady book 6.5 Creedmoor with superformance powder is 44.7gr for a top speed of 2700fps. Similar data with 129gr, 160gr, 123gr and 95-100gr bullets. Up here in Canada the 6.5 Creemore is gone from the stores.

My choice .260R all the way and I will not look behing my shoulder. Case closed for me.

Editing: Before someone ask, the 6.5 Grendel was tested with a 14.5 barrel on an AR platform. They did tested the 140gr bullets but Quote We found that in our 14.5in test barrel that muzzle velocities of the 140gr bullets dipped low enough to preclude adequate terminal performance and for that reason we chose not to include data for the 140gr bullets. end of quote.

LRRPF52
10-20-2011, 07:13 PM
Can't you convert .308 brass to the 6.5 CM? I have also heard excellent reviews on the 6.5x47 Laupa. What would the price difference be? Obviously the bullets are the same, but what is a good gun to get that cal in? What is the popularity in hunting applications? I know they are great for target, but target rifles don't always make good hunting rifles...

You don't need to use .308 brass, but yes, you can, with neck-trimming. Or, you could start with the parent case, the 30 TC, and neck that down. There are no issues with loading .260 Rem to 2.800" for mag-length, since all the 140gr VLD projectiles fit in it fine. I really think the 6.5 Creedmoor was more of a "Hey, we have a 6.5-08 too!" Kinda deal. There really aren't any performance advantages that I can see to warrant its existence over the .260 Rem and 6.5x47 Lapua.

You can chamber the Lapua in anything you want, short-action wise in a hunter configuration, and brass is also single-source, very expensive, but extremely durable.

bwaites
10-20-2011, 07:19 PM
You don't need to use .308 brass, but yes, you can, with neck-trimming. Or, you could start with the parent case, the 30 TC, and neck that down. There are no issues with loading .260 Rem to 2.800" for mag-length, since all the 140gr VLD projectiles fit in it fine. I really think the 6.5 Creedmoor was more of a "Hey, we have a 6.5-08 too!" Kinda deal. There really aren't any performance advantages that I can see to warrant its existence over the .260 Rem and 6.5x47 Lapua.

You can chamber the Lapua in anything you want, short-action wise in a hunter configuration, and brass is also single-source, very expensive, but extremely durable.

The real sales pitch for the Creedmoor was that it was a target rifle for guys who didn't reload, with a competitive factory load and the recipe printed right on the box. That way you knew how to load what was a known quantity. Interestingly, of the people I've talked to, the factory load really did shoot well, and many claimed consistent .5MOA groups from factory loads.

I like the Lapua the most, because from what I can tell, the cartridge is a little more efficient than the .260 so far as powder loads go, but I would buy a .260, because of the availability of factory ammo and, now, Lapua brass.

Its the only AR-10 I actually want.

justified
10-21-2011, 08:25 PM
The American Rifleman reviewed the Savage Lightweight hunter in 6.5 Creedmore this month. (November Edition) Light at 5.5 lbs and has the accutrigger. Hard to beat at an MSRP of around $700.

I'm thinking about one of these for a walking/stalking hunting rifle.

Varoum
10-22-2011, 09:59 PM
Why waitin til November


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECKsFicSbrw

Ordered one this morning. Dont know went I'll get it.

Thanks Justified
Oh almost forgot caliber is .260R

jonbearman
10-24-2011, 04:32 AM
Yes savage does make a rifle in 7.62x39 in two versions and all you have to do is change the barrel.I would contact northland shooters supply and ask for jim briggs.He is a sponser on savage shooters forum,he sells 3 different barrel companys to choose from.He has shilen and criterion(kreigers button rifling div.) and mcgowen.It is better to call him.He is listed under the commercial sponsers pages.

adamjp
11-03-2011, 11:12 AM
Hi, my first post on this new version of the forum.

Firstly I'm in Australia, so my Grendel will be a bolt gun, AR-15s are not legal here. I've been planning a Grendel for the last two years and have had all the pieces sitting ready since January this year. I've been waiting for my gunsmith to get legal at his new address (he changed states and has to reapply for dealer licences). Good gunsmiths are not that common here in Australia.

I've just started a semi-custom build using a Zastava m85 action (aka Mini Mauser or Rem799). So far I've lapped the lugs and that is all. I have a couple of other rifles on these actions (6/223 and 6PPC) and am very familiar with how to slick them.

PacNor No.3 stainless select barrel and a 6.5 BPC reamer trimmed to 21in in length.

Stock by Bell & Carlson, not as light as I'd like, but solid and a good shape.

Custom picatinney rail and a Kahles 2-7 sitting on top.

Lapua brass, Forster Dies with a Redding 6mm PPC bushing neck die holding a 276 bushing.

Should be finished in January, just in time for me to do load development in the hotest time of the year. I'm really looking forward to getting it, more so than the tricked Rem700 switchbarrel (6.5x47 Lapua and 7mm SAUM) he is building for me at the same time.

I plan on using what is sold as H4895 and Varget (AR2206H and AR2208 here) and will be loading for 108gn Scenars (paper), 100gn TTSX for deer/goats/pigs and and 95gn VMAX for small fluffy critters (rabbit/fox).

Texas Sheepdawg
11-03-2011, 03:07 PM
I would love a 6.5 Grendel in a Browning A-Bolt or Ruger M77MKII.

JASmith
11-03-2011, 03:18 PM
Joining the Bandwagon, how about a Savage Weather Warrior in 6.5 Grendel?

Sniper20
11-03-2011, 04:01 PM
I would love the savage, but I don't like the barrels they have. I am one for a bull barrel. I just don't like the thinner barrels... They need to make the BAS-K series in a 6.5 (CM or Grendel...) Yes, you can re-barrel it, but I like the beefy look they have.

JASmith
11-03-2011, 04:11 PM
You mentioned a bull barrel. Is that the reason you don't like the Savage barrels, or is there an accuracy or longevity issue we need to be concerned about?

Traxx
11-03-2011, 04:31 PM
Savage does offer bull barrels

Sniper20
11-03-2011, 04:41 PM
No, I LOVE my savage. I have the BAS in 308 and she is accurate as can be. Only had it for a few years, so no word on the longevity. I would like to see them bring out a few more caliber choices with different models though. I think the Creedmoor is going to be a huge hit (that is a whole other can of worms, and has been discussed on other threads), and I might be in the market for one. But about the only gun that I like so far is the Ruger target series. I have seen some Savages in the 6.5 (forget the model) but I want to see more. I'm not sure why they call the BAS model "law enforcement" as they are huge and bulky, but that is my favorite model so far. I would like to see those chambered in a 6.5.

adamjp
11-03-2011, 10:32 PM
Why the interest in a Grendel in an action much larger than you need? IMHO it is at it's best in the little actions.

If you are going to use a Savage, Ruger, Remington, Browning 308 sized action just go with the 6.5x47 Lapua (far better brass than the US copy Creedmore). It would be like putting a Grendel in an AR-10/SR-25 type rifle.

A 6.5x47 Lap will throw a 120gn Prohunter at 3000fps from a 24in barrel, 2800 from a 20in barrel. My two 6.5 Lap rifles (Model 70 bullbarrel & Ruger No.1 RSI) are awesome riflesand work very nice on the range and in the field. Even a 260Rem would be a nice choice, particularly if you want to throw the 140gn+ class of bullets.

hm2 clark
11-04-2011, 12:03 AM
My (convulated) thought process as to why I have a Grendel in a (little bit) longer action than necessary goes somthing like this. (1) I allready had long actions 6.5s (x55 and 06) (2) I allready had a Grendel with dies bullets ect. (3) I had a short action surplus to needs. (4) A 6.5 06 or 6.5x55 wont fit in the surplus short action. (5) a grendel will fit in a short action and then I can load over max oal. (6) So in the intrest of keeping things simple.. I built a grendel on a short action remington.

adamjp
11-04-2011, 12:13 AM
Yep, I can understand that. Are the little Zastava actions still available in the US or did Remington kill the market when they muscled in for the short time they sold the 798/799? The actions only are under $400 here in Australia and it does not take much modification to have them work reliably with the Grendel.

Might want to talk with you about the 6.5/06. I'm planning one on a spare Ruger No.1 action I have.

hawk45
11-04-2011, 10:38 PM
Just buy a Stevens 200, get an action wrench and nut wrench, sell the barrel and stock for $75, order a B/C or Choate stock and a barrel to your specs from PacNor. You'd be at about $700 before optics.

adamjp
11-04-2011, 10:45 PM
Just buy a Stevens 200, get an action wrench and nut wrench, sell the barrel and stock for $75, order a B/C or Choate stock and a barrel to your specs from PacNor. You'd be at about $700 before optics.
Stevens 200 would need a new bolt head to work with the Grendel. Otherwise thet are a nice cheap action of decent quality.

For me the rifle is not an option as it is too large, no longer sold here, and the bolt heads to suit are unavailable due to US Govt export laws.

shuter
11-07-2011, 04:47 PM
Thoughts on starting with a stainless Savage 16 FHSS in .223 here: http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/16FHSS/ and replacing bolt head with a Sharps Shooters Supply part for the PPC, then a Pre Fit Pac-Nor Barrel chambered for "6.5 Grendel Match"? Looks like barrel would run about $415 + install, and bolt head about $75. Seems like a reasonable cost for a nice little low-recoil deer rig in stainless with Accustock, etc.? Thoughts?

One question is, would a Savage 16 action built for .223 likely feed 6.5 Grendel cartridges reliably? I'm looking at the hinged floorplate model probably, because of wanting to build a hunting rig.

Thanks for the help guys! First post here. I have 1 Grendel on an AR platform that was a custom build. Will post pics soon.

Shuter

JASmith
11-07-2011, 06:04 PM
Shuter,

Welcome aboard!

I just ordered the .243 version http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/116FCSS with the same purpose in mind.

I'm hoping the magazines for the 7.62X39 Model 10 FCM Scout http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCM+SCOUT will work in our rifles and that any tweaking for reliable feeding is straightforward.

You might also find interesting insight at http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/.

Let us know what you discover!

Cheers!

shuter
11-07-2011, 11:20 PM
Thanks, JA. I've posted the question on the Savage forum and will report back.

shuter

JASmith
11-07-2011, 11:35 PM
Thanks Shuter -- that's one thing less on my plate!

Varoum
11-21-2011, 06:31 PM
For a bolt rifle, how long the barrel could be for the Grendel?

hm2 clark
11-22-2011, 12:46 AM
Varoum, barrel length answer is as always... It depends. What is your goal? Fo accuracy it proobably does not matter. How far do you intend to shoot? Which bullets do you intend to shoot? How heavy a rifle do you want? For me I like a handy light accurate carbine capable of taking deer/pigs/cyates to 400+ yards with 120 gr bullets; so my bolt grendels are 16&18 inches. If I had to do it over again I might go with 18-20 inch barels. If I hunted Canada, (Moose, Elk BIG Deer) I would probably want to push somthing like the 130gr Swift Sicoroco to 2500+fps so I would use a 22-24 inch barrel. If I hunted Antcosti Island I would be content with the 16 inch barell.

Varoum
11-22-2011, 09:26 AM
Coyotes from 300 yards and up up up

You sure know the good places to hunt.

hm2 clark
11-23-2011, 01:52 AM
For coyotes (say <60 lbs) most any bullet will do. I would probably use a 123 gr Lapua because of its high BC and little drop. I like shorter barrels so I'd think a 22 inch barrel would work out to 700 yards. I cant hit a coyote @ 700 yards though.

Varoum
11-23-2011, 03:08 AM
Great info HM2clark thanks

Stacyp
11-24-2011, 01:44 PM
Another thought... Should I just look at a 6.5 Creedmoor? Gives more punch and has a better range... Might do that, but was looking at improving accuracy... With the stuff that I hunt/shoot a bolt works good. I have not tested the Grendel on yotes yet, but I can't wait!
Depends what you want to do with the rifle. I'd rather have a .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor in a bolt gun. Range is much better and you can use multiple brass choices. If you are shooting long range, the increased velocity will help considerably.

hm2 clark
11-24-2011, 08:08 PM
Agreed, depends what you want to do with the rifle. For Canadan moose I'd rather have a 6.5x55 or 6.5-06 in a bolt gun. Range is much better and you can use multiple brass and bullet choices. You can seat the long 140 and 160 grain bullets you need for trully big game. They help considerably.

BjornF16
05-05-2012, 02:26 PM
I just ordered the .243 version http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/116FCSS with the same purpose in mind.

I'm hoping the magazines for the 7.62X39 Model 10 FCM Scout http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCM+SCOUT will work in our rifles and that any tweaking for reliable feeding is straightforward.


Smitty, any updates on your findings? (sorry if I missed a post elsewhere).

JASmith
05-05-2012, 03:55 PM
Not yet -- but thanks for your prompt! Just sent a note to http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/ with a slightly generalized form of the question. It looks like I will have to call Savage because they don't list a technical support (or other) email.

It is only 5 or six months before I have a barrel in hand where it becomes an issue. Even then it would be "nice to have" because most of my shooting for the project will be single-shot.

And, yes, I have been distracted enough by other projects that I haven't tried contacting the Savage Custom Shop or their technical help folks. Same is true of posting the question at http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/ ---

If someone does contact Savage or others on the question, I would be most interested in their findings.

BjornF16
05-05-2012, 04:01 PM
Magazine maximum length questions:

For bolt action rifles, is the .223 Rem maximum magazine length also 2.26 (like AR15 magazine)? What is the magazine maximum length for 7.62x39mm bolt action rifles (Savage, CZ, etc)?

I noticed that the COL for 7.62x39mm is 2.205"...I want to make sure I don't have a COL limitation due to magazine on a Grendel conversion.

JASmith
05-05-2012, 04:51 PM
I am not an expert on this topic -- which is why I have posted the way I did.

What I do know is that the magazine-length is different, depending on the rifle. I have a circa 1964 Browning in 222 Rem Magnum that has a magazine length right at the COAL for most factory ammunition. My son can load longer COAL in his .223 AR and CZ 527.

Opus Dei
05-05-2012, 07:02 PM
Bjorn, I see you registered over on the Savage forum. I'm starting my own project and got a 10 in .243 two weeks ago and have since changed boltheads. I'll be interested in what is said about the factory 7.62X39 DBM. Since I don't intend to use that cheap plastic stock with a blind magazine, I've been looking at alternative stocks/DBMs and have seen how 6BR shooters modded AI .308 magazines. Any stock that takes AI magazines/bottom metal for a CF Savage isn't cheap, especially with the DBM conversion factored-in.

hm2 clark
05-05-2012, 08:36 PM
tho oal magazine max length in my 527 that started out in 7.63x39 2.162-or so.

BjornF16
05-05-2012, 08:52 PM
So a CZ 7.62x39 conversion will have a shorter Grendel cartridge length than the AR based 2.26"?

Here is a comment from the SAVAGE forum regarding Savage 10 FCM 7.62x39mm Scout rifle magazine length:

"The FCM is set up for a standard short action detachable mag. The 7.62x39 mag that comes with it has an overall internal mag length (because of a spacer that Savage puts in the rear) of approximately 2.46 inches.

You could easily replace that mag body, spring & follower with a .223 mag body, spring & follower or a standard short action .308-family mag body, spring & follower if you so desired."

It appears to me that the Savage option is more attractive since it will allow for longer cartridges than allowed in the AR platform.

The 10 FCM is a AccuStock platform...if I go this route, I'll probably keep the factory stock and see how it shoots with a Pac-Nor barrel in Grendel Match. I think the 2.46" magazine would be plenty, so no need to switch to .308 magazine (and have to modify it for Grendel).

JASmith
05-05-2012, 09:21 PM
Bjorn,

Thanks for the research -- it looks like the comment that "...You could easily replace that mag body, spring & follower with a .223 mag body, spring & follower or a standard short action .308-family mag body, spring & follower if you so desired..." means that one could use the 7.62X39 magazine in a .308 length magazine well.

BjornF16
05-05-2012, 09:55 PM
it looks like the comment that "...You could easily replace that mag body, spring & follower with a .223 mag body, spring & follower or a standard short action .308-family mag body, spring & follower if you so desired..." means that one could use the 7.62X39 magazine in a .308 length magazine well.

Smitty, that is the way I interpreted it as well...

I think that also means you could use ANY .308 family Savage DBM rifle and convert it to Grendel using their 7.62 magazines and bolt.

McMillan has some stocks that would fit your .243 Savage.

Opus Dei
05-05-2012, 11:42 PM
Smitty, that is the way I interpreted it as well...

I think that also means you could use ANY .308 family Savage DBM rifle and convert it to Grendel using their 7.62 magazines and bolt.

McMillan has some stocks that would fit your .243 Savage.So does H-S and Manners. Problem is if you factor in DBM, the price gets high enough to look at chassis. I believe I'm going to order a McRee, if I'm in for that $. Too bad B&C Duramaxx only seem to be available only for the staggerfeed models.

BjornF16
05-06-2012, 07:16 PM
Smitty,

Don't know if you've gone to SSS website or not, but here is a quote from their website that may help you with your blind box magazine to DBM conversion:

DBM & HFP MAGAZINE CONVERSION PARTS
Since the recent change over to the new center feed magazines, the system lends itself to be modular, and adaptable to most applications on current rifles. For the blind, detachable and hinged floor plate magazine configurations, the same magazine box is utilized. The blind magazine consists of a box and follower. For the detachable box magazine, it uses the same components, plus a snap on bottom cap. For the hinged floor plate model, the same components are used in conjunction with a magazine frame with the hinged lid. The detachable box magazine requires the appropriate magazine frame to retain the box. Both the DBM and HFP use the same stock; the inlet is the same for both sets of hardware.

With this in mind, we recently introduced a few new stock patterns to take advantage of the whole system of DBM, blind and HFP rifles. Now one may start with a blind magazine rifle and upgrade to DBM or HFP by adding the correct components.

http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/ - see "Original Parts"

JASmith
05-06-2012, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the info!

My 116FC, however, already has a detachable magazine. Main question was whether I could use a 7.62x39 magazine in a rifle that normally uses .308-length magazines. Your research has helped build my confidence that that should work as well.

Of course, I will check to see If Grendel cartridges will feed OK in my .243 magazine!

Thanks again!

Opus Dei
05-07-2012, 12:20 AM
Thanks for the info!

My 116FC, however, already has a detachable magazine. Main question was whether I could use a 7.62x39 magazine in a rifle that normally uses .308-length magazines. Your research has helped build my confidence that that should work as well.

Of course, I will check to see If Grendel cartridges will feed OK in my .243 magazine!

Thanks again!I know they won't work in a .243 blind magazine. I did try a .22/250 magazine, and it kinda worked. The more you loaded, the more they started getting cocked. It basically made a logjam as the pressure on the spring released.

JASmith
05-07-2012, 12:26 AM
Good to know!

Thanks!

eljefe
05-24-2012, 07:35 AM
Am looking at a BSA in 222 and a A&B 6.5 bbl to go. What do you guys think?
TIA

Opus Dei
05-24-2012, 12:18 PM
Bienvenidos, El Jefe!

A&B barrels are made by E.R. Shaw, IIRC. They're decent for the $. I have an J&T AR upper in 5.56 with a Shaw barrel, and it's been good to go.

Here's a link to compare some Grendel uppers-note the J&T upper accuracy. http://www.jprifles.com/press.php?document_id=166

JASmith
05-24-2012, 02:30 PM
I gather the .223 Remington is not an option in Ausralia?

Grimmy
05-24-2012, 08:13 PM
Ruger has a Hawkeye in 7.62x39 but no detachable box. Eveybody tells me to go bigger Creedmoor or 260 but I'm impressed with the Grendel and how efficient it is. So I willprobably build a Grendel bolt and buy a Creedmoor to launch the heavy bullets. Damn the problems you have to face being addicted to shooting!

AFRO408
05-24-2012, 11:40 PM
I gather the .223 Remington is not an option in Ausralia?

Why do you say that?? Not an option for what??

Tony

JASmith
05-25-2012, 12:15 AM
Why do you say that?? Not an option for what??

Tony
From what I understand, some countries or jurisdictions prohibit use of "military caliber" ammunition. For example, I understand that ordinary citizens in Australia were not allowed to own rifles chambered for the .303 British.

The question was prompted by the huge quantity of .223 ammunition and brass compared to the .222 Remington. Most folks would opt for the .223 if they are allowed to. Of course making .222 from .223 is a relatively straightforward operation, but...

ricsmall
05-25-2012, 12:24 AM
:
From what I understand, some countries or jurisdictions prohibit use of "military caliber" ammunition. For example, I understand that ordinary citizens in Australia were not allowed to own rifles chambered for the .303 British.

The question was prompted by the huge quantity of .223 ammunition and brass compared to the .222 Remington. Most folks would opt for the .223 if they are allowed to. Of course making .222 from .223 is a relatively straightforward operation, but...

I think he is planning on replacing barrel with a 6.5 G and opening the bolt face. I think.:confused:

JASmith
05-25-2012, 12:36 AM
:

I think he is planning on replacing barrel with a 6.5 G and opening the bolt face. I think.:confused:
You might be able to color me confused -- I read the "and" to mean he is planning to get both a 222 and a 6.5 Grendel rather than replace. Sorry for adding to the confusion!

ricsmall
05-25-2012, 12:42 AM
You might be able to color me confused -- I read the "and" to mean he is planning to get both a 222 and a 6.5 Grendel rather than replace. Sorry for adding to the confusion!

no, i was kind of confused myself! got to thinking after I posted that I probably shouldnt put words into ones mouth, as that usually results in a foot in my mouth!

JASmith
05-25-2012, 12:44 AM
'been there, done that -- kinda stings!

AFRO408
05-25-2012, 02:08 AM
From what I understand, some countries or jurisdictions prohibit use of "military caliber" ammunition. For example, I understand that ordinary citizens in Australia were not allowed to own rifles chambered for the .303 British.

The question was prompted by the huge quantity of .223 ammunition and brass compared to the .222 Remington. Most folks would opt for the .223 if they are allowed to. Of course making .222 from .223 is a relatively straightforward operation, but...

That was the case, after WWII, but not now. Gunsmiths here, got around that, by setting the SMLE barrels back one turn of the thread and shortening the .303 case to suit.
I think .223 would be the most popular round here, closely followed by the .243 & .308.

I'll be opening up the bolt face, on a customers BSA SF2, to fit the Grendel case.

Cheers,
Tony

JASmith
05-25-2012, 03:02 AM
Tony (FR0408),

Thanks for the clarification. Your client will see significantly less wind drift in addition to the other reasons for going to the Grendel.

eljefe
05-27-2012, 01:12 AM
Muchas Gracias, All,
I was a bit cryptic ( in retrospect!) what with discovering the 6.5, and then this forum...
Yes, to all Afro said. There seems to be a growing Australian presence here ;)

Will keep you all posted on progress.I didnt know the ER Shaw and Adams& Bennet connection.Thanks

Von Gruff
05-27-2012, 07:01 AM
Good to see you on board with the horde eljefe, and Afro too for that matter.

Von Gruff.

AFRO408
05-27-2012, 09:27 AM
Good to see you on board with the horde eljefe, and Afro too for that matter.

Von Gruff.

Thanks Von. I'm hoping to build a very accurate bolt gun, for eljefe and will probably build one for myself as well.

eljefe
05-27-2012, 01:28 PM
Good to see you on board with the horde eljefe, and Afro too for that matter.

Von Gruff.

Thanks VG
I like the "on board with the hoard" ;)
Maybe we 'down under wallahs' should start a sticky here on bolt Grendels, seeing that its going to be the only option?

Hi Tony,
Mate its heartening to read the part about you wanting to build one for your self too.Augurs well for me :D

Cheers All

Von Gruff
05-27-2012, 10:59 PM
Thanks VG
I like the "on board with the hoard" ;)
Maybe we 'down under wallahs' should start a sticky here on bolt Grendels, seeing that its going to be the only option?

Hi Tony,
Mate its heartening to read the part about you wanting to build one for your self too.Augurs well for me :D

Cheers All

I dare say there are a number of us who are bolt rifle by choice, so I will start a thread for the dedicated handloaders of bolt rifles.

Von Gruff.

AFRO408
05-27-2012, 11:05 PM
Thanks VG
I like the "on board with the hoard" ;)
Maybe we 'down under wallahs' should start a sticky here on bolt Grendels, seeing that its going to be the only option?

Hi Tony,
Mate its heartening to read the part about you wanting to build one for your self too.Augurs well for me :D

Cheers All

A bolt rifle section would be good, as there are some of us, in this world, who aren't allowed to own semi auto rifles.

I'll be building mine on a near new Stevens 200 that came in minus it's bolt. Seems that old mate had break in and the thieves stole his ammo and bolts, but not the rifles. I've ordered another bolt, in .223 head size and will open it up for the Grendel round.

Von Gruff
05-28-2012, 12:36 AM
Have postewd my bolt rifle intention here http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3002-Bolt-rifle-for-dedicated-handloaders

so as not to hijack this thread.

Von Gruff.

eljefe
05-28-2012, 02:15 AM
@ Tony-Now that'll be interesting, to see a non Stevens barrel go on...Are you planing an A&B too?
@ Von G, am sure a lot of us 'AR deprived' folk will benefit from loading data, neck bushing sizes etc.
Does /would the 6.5 Grendel fit into the Sambar legal category,I wonder?
Cheers All

AFRO408
05-28-2012, 09:20 AM
@ Tony-Now that'll be interesting, to see a non Stevens barrel go on...Are you planing an A&B too?
@ Von G, am sure a lot of us 'AR deprived' folk will benefit from loading data, neck bushing sizes etc.
Does /would the 6.5 Grendel fit into the Sambar legal category,I wonder?
Cheers All

1. I'll probably get a Walther bbl for it. Maybe a TSE. Don't know yet.

2.Wouldn't fit here in Aus. .270+ cal restriction. That's why I sold my 6.5x55 and built 7x57, in case I get the chance one day to go south and hunt Sambar.

Von Gruff
05-28-2012, 10:44 AM
Does /would the 6.5 Grendel fit into the Sambar legal category,I wonder?
Cheers All

No caliber restrictions here in NZ for hunting cartridge use but if I were after larger Sambar - wapiti sized animals I would use my 7x57 as Tony has also indicated, unless I had a fit of the "lets see what happes" and take the 404 Jeffery as I did once on a goat bomb up.
:cool::cool::cool:

Von Gruff.

adamjp
05-28-2012, 10:51 AM
Grendel bolters becoming more popular! I won't feel so alone at home anymore.

Hi gents, its a good source of Grendel info here. I'll get back to you about that reamer later on tonight. ;)

I went out yesterday with the shortened PacNor and the more I shoot it, the better it seems to perform. Can you tell which shot I pulled? Need to buy some more BM1 when I head up for the SHOT show in Sydney.

1544

AFRO408
05-28-2012, 10:56 PM
Grendel bolters becoming more popular! I won't feel so alone at home anymore.

Hi gents, its a good source of Grendel info here. I'll get back to you about that reamer later on tonight. ;)

I went out yesterday with the shortened PacNor and the more I shoot it, the better it seems to perform. Can you tell which shot I pulled? Need to buy some more BM1 when I head up for the SHOT show in Sydney.

1544

Nothing wrong with that group Adam. Short barrels, combined with short cartridges, work well, eh.

eljefe
05-29-2012, 01:49 PM
Sambar- Asking because of all the 6.5 & 'Elk interest' :)
Von G-Yup, would be a nice way to blood my 404.Got some interesting 350 gr GC CB to check out...
Ready when you are, Tony!
Adam, tha'ts a splendid effort.
... looks like I want my Grendel right now. So BM1 is in?Am still looking for Lil Gun ( for the 'Juice')

Von Gruff
05-29-2012, 10:36 PM
1. I'll probably get a Walther bbl for it. Maybe a TSE. Don't know yet.



Tony, What do you think of the TSE barrels. I have a couple and while they are very good shooters I do find the fouling to be a little more than I would have expected.

Von Gruff.

adamjp
05-29-2012, 10:43 PM
I need to get some more BM1 and work it up a little more. I think there is another half to full grain in it before pressure is an issue. Should get those Scenars out at nearly 3000fps - 2950 may be good.

I did do some workups with the 100gn NBTs over BM1 and manged to get them going at just over 3000fps (3043 IIRC) but I felt the brass was getting smashed a little hard. SD and ES numbers were single digit though.

One thing I have learnt is that what works in an AR15 Grendel is not always the best thing in a bolt Grendel. Still exploring this so I'm not confirmed on it yet.

eljefe
05-30-2012, 04:17 AM
Adam, there's the other bloke on AHN, who 's running a bolt Grendel, he used a quote Grendel reamer from PTG unquote, any idea whether its a bolt or AR reamer? He's running 2207.
Cheers

adamjp
05-30-2012, 05:14 AM
Yes, Andrew has put one set of loads down the tube on his m85 based Rifle. He is still waiting for his gunsmith to finish the rest of the rifle so he can work it some more.

His load of 2207 behind the 120gn Sierra ProHunters will only be delivering around 2400fps. Lots of room for development. FWIW he is using an A&B barrel.

No idea on his reamer specs, it was a new order from PTG when the first one got smashed in a tight spot of the A&B barrel.

AFRO408
06-01-2012, 09:50 AM
Tony, What do you think of the TSE barrels. I have a couple and while they are very good shooters I do find the fouling to be a little more than I would have expected.

Von Gruff.

I have been fitting TSE barrels since the late 90's and haven't had one come back as being faulty. Sure some of them foul up a bit, but if they look rough to me, then I run a lapp through them and they are fine then. If you know how to hand lapp, then do that, otherwise I would suggest that you shoot a couple of hard cast bullets, rolled in fine lapping paste, through them. That should fix the problem. Or give the bores a rub with Butches Bore shine. I'm told that that works as well.

The worst fouling barrel, I have fitted, was a Douglas CrMo .243, requested by the customer. Cost him $150 more and the throat was totally fouled up in two weeks. He was a pro 'roo shooter and didn't know how to clean a barrel either. He was really disappointed. I wonder why?? :)

LRRPF52
06-09-2012, 03:10 AM
I was just speaking with the guys from Lapua at a Wilderness Expo here in Finland, and one of them has a Sako 85 chambered in Grendel, with a varmint profile barrel. I did a major double-take when he said he's getting 940 m/s (3084fps) with the 123gr Scenar using N550. I made sure I understood him correctly as I took out the calculator function in my phone. They said it was a 600mm barrel, which is 23.6" long.

I asked if he was using a longer COAL, and he said he's uing the Lapua load manual recommended COAL.

adamjp
06-09-2012, 04:18 AM
I was just speaking with the guys from Lapua at a Wilderness Expo here in Finland, and one of them has a Sako 85 chambered in Grendel, with a varmint profile barrel. I did a major double-take when he said he's getting 940 m/s (3084fps) with the 123gr Scenar using N550. I made sure I understood him correctly as I took out the calculator function in my phone. They said it was a 600mm barrel, which is 23.6" long.

I asked if he was using a longer COAL, and he said he's uing the Lapua load manual recommended COAL.
Wow!!!! I'd like to see the pressure trace from a pierzo on that! That is a max load in my 6.5x47 Lapua - with 38.x gn of AR2208 (Varget).

I thought I was pushing it with a 108gn Scenar at that speed.

If you could ask him very nicely for some boltgun loads I would certainly appreciate it.

Buck2732
06-10-2012, 11:49 AM
Wow!!!! I'd like to see the pressure trace from a pierzo on that! That is a max load in my 6.5x47 Lapua - with 38.x gn of AR2208 (Varget).

I thought I was pushing it with a 108gn Scenar at that speed.

If you could ask him very nicely for some boltgun loads I would certainly appreciate it.

Plus one for me too please.

LRRPF52
06-10-2012, 04:41 PM
I keep thinking back on the conversation I had with him, and the only thing that makes sense for me is if he was talking about .260 Rem, but I was certain we were talking about the Grendel, as he said he has 2 Grendels, and at least one was a bolt gun, and he's getting 940 m/s with the 8 gram Scenar out of it.

hm2 clark
06-10-2012, 09:25 PM
Someone remind me please, "How much pressure does the the CZ 527 tolerate?" and "How much pressure does the Grendel generate?"

adamjp
06-11-2012, 12:35 AM
You may well be onto something there.

He may also have been talking about the 6.5x47 Lapua - a great case that equals the 260 Rem with bullets in that weight range. It is also capable of withstanding extreme pressure better than most. The 6.5x47 Lap has a H2O capacity of 48gn, the 260 54gn (but it loses more with seating the bullets deeper). IIRC the Grendel is fully 10gn under the 6.5x47 Lap case.

3080fps is quite doable out of a 24in barrel with the 6.5x47 Lap case and a 123gn Scenar. Stiff, but doable.


I just can't see those velocities with the Grendel case. Not if you want to extract it anyway. The CZ action, or the Mini Zastava are good, but their qualities are immaterial as the brass will liquify at pressures needed to drive a 123gn Scenar at 3080fps from a little Grendel case.

JASmith
06-11-2012, 01:04 AM
Someone remind me please, "How much pressure does the the CZ 527 tolerate?" and "How much pressure does the Grendel generate?"
adamjp has indicated that "The CZ action, or the Mini Zastava are good, but their qualities are immaterial as the brass will liquify at pressures needed to drive a 123gn Scenar at 3080fps from a little Grendel case."

So to complete the answer to your question, the targeted pressures for standard AR bolts are around 50,000 psi. This pressure level is set to assure very long and highly reliable bolt life. We have also been just told that the Grendel case, on the other hand, is designed for 58,000 psi.

The extra 8,000 psi or 16% pressure, has a significant impact on attainable muzzle velocity.

adamjp
06-11-2012, 04:37 AM
That it does, but I would estimate the pressures needed to throw a 123gn at those speeds from the Grendel case will be closer to 80k PSI. Only guessing mind you, someone with Quickload could help on this theory. My 6.5x47 Lap will achieve those speeds at the 65k PSI limit of that cartridge, just.

At pressures above 75k PSI brass flows like liquid and would probably lock the action up on both the CZ and the Mini Zastava when it flowed into the ejector slot.

Oddly the actions are probably able to contain pressures towards 90k PSI, although I'm not sure how it would look afterwards or how useable it would be.

Mutt
06-11-2012, 06:29 AM
Give me one ...... I'll take it to the range and tell you how it went ...... LOL. I'll even video running it on the chrono.

eljefe
06-11-2012, 03:28 PM
That it does, but I would estimate the pressures needed to throw a 123gn at those speeds from the Grendel case will be closer to 80k PSI. Only guessing mind you, someone with Quickload could help on this theory. My 6.5x47 Lap will achieve those speeds at the 65k PSI limit of that cartridge, just.

At pressures above 75k PSI brass flows like liquid and would probably lock the action up on both the CZ and the Mini Zastava when it flowed into the ejector slot.

Oddly the actions are probably able to contain pressures towards 90k PSI, although I'm not sure how it would look afterwards or how useable it would be.

Adam-
Cartridge : 6.5 mm Grendel
Bullet : .264, 123, Lapua Scenar GB489 6032
Useable Case Capaci: 31.925 grain H2O = 2.073 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.554 inch = 64.87 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N550

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.0 89 26.88 2145 1256 27783 5783 85.9 1.588
-09.0 90 27.18 2170 1286 28634 5872 86.5 1.568
-08.0 91 27.48 2195 1316 29509 5960 87.2 1.548
-07.0 92 27.78 2220 1346 30420 6047 87.8 1.528
-06.0 93 28.08 2245 1376 31359 6133 88.4 1.509
-05.0 94 28.38 2270 1407 32329 6219 89.0 1.490
-04.0 95 28.68 2295 1439 33333 6303 89.5 1.471
-03.0 96 28.97 2321 1471 34372 6385 90.1 1.453
-02.0 97 29.27 2346 1503 35446 6467 90.7 1.434
-01.0 98 29.57 2371 1536 36542 6547 91.2 1.416
+00.0 99 29.87 2397 1569 37706 6626 91.7 1.398
+01.0 100 30.17 2422 1602 38898 6703 92.2 1.378
+02.0 101 30.47 2448 1636 40130 6779 92.7 1.359
+03.0 102 30.77 2473 1671 41408 6853 93.2 1.340
+04.0 103 31.06 2499 1706 42731 6926 93.7 1.321
+05.0 104 31.36 2525 1741 44103 6996 94.1 1.302

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 99 29.87 2549 1775 46023 6834 97.6 1.285 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 99 29.87 2210 1334 30633 6090 82.2 1.523

adamjp
06-12-2012, 12:22 AM
Thanks for that.

It is interesting to note that there it appears impossible to load enough N550 in the case to acheive the stated velocity.

eljefe
06-12-2012, 02:03 PM
Guys, I was reminded of the COAL I used being 2.5 inch as compared to 2.260. So I ran a fresh set and here's where we stand:

Cartridge : 6.5 mm Grendel
Bullet : .264, 123, Lapua Scenar GB489 6032
Useable Case Capaci: 27.837 grain H2O = 1.807 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N550

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

+00.0 114 29.88 2560 1790 51340 6454 94.4 1.232 ! Near Maximum !

JASmith
06-12-2012, 02:17 PM
QuickLoad seems to have a temperature knob to twist.

I assume the loads were run at the default temperature.

I wonder what the calculated velocities would be if 0 deg F and 130 deg F were used?

LRRPF52
06-13-2012, 10:37 PM
I just confirmed that it was in fact a Grendel bolt gun, and it was an extreme pressure test to certify whether or not the Grendel could be used in EU hunting where they have certain velocity, bullet weight, and caliber minimums required for moose, and related competitions.

The load is considered dangerous in a bolt gun, and brass is toast after 1 firing. While discussing this today with one of the head R&D guys at Lapua, he said to think about the maximum pressure capacity of .300 Win Mag, then add about 20%. That is what it took to push the 123gr Scenar at 940 m/s from a bolt gun Grendel. I think .330 Win Mag is 64ksi SAAMI, so 20% on top of that is about 78,000psi-not recommended to try at home folks.

I am quite familiar with the 6.5x47 Lapua, and know several competitors who use it. I almost chambered my AR10 in it, but chose .260 Rem for brass availability. A buddy of mine pushes the 140gr VLD's from a 25" RPA at over 2980fps, and I know some Norwegian Snipers who push the 123gr Scenar well over 3200fps with the x47. Primer pockets will loosen quickly with those loads, to say the least, but the trajectory is awesome!

adamjp
06-14-2012, 09:38 AM
The load is considered dangerous in a bolt gun, and brass is toast after 1 firing.
Gee, I can't imagine why?

The CIP Specification for the 300 Win is 62k psi. So yes, nearly 75k psi.

JWP58
06-22-2012, 03:13 AM
Does savage make a .223 specific sized action? Or would you just use a regular short action (.308)?

JASmith
06-22-2012, 04:09 AM
Does savage make a .223 specific sized action? Or would you just use a regular short action (.308)?
The discussions I've seen suggest that it is a .308 length action.

A good way to confirm is to do a search on the the Savage Forum (http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/). Join up and post a query if the answer doesn't pop up!

adamjp
06-22-2012, 05:05 AM
I think the Savage 25 is a 223 sized action, but it has little in common with the standard Savage rifles. It is also quite a long action for what it is - unfortunately quite typical of Savage rimfires too.

Opus Dei
06-22-2012, 12:58 PM
Does savage make a .223 specific sized action? Or would you just use a regular short action (.308)?There's a bolt "buffer" that you can put on a short-action bolt assembly to index stripping .223-size rounds from a magazine. Really, I would term it a "limiter" or "stop", since it mitigates nothing but excessive bolt travel.

The model 10 Scout in 7.62X39 might be your best bet to start with.

eljefe
06-22-2012, 02:29 PM
QuickLoad seems to have a temperature knob to twist.

I assume the loads were run at the default temperature.

I wonder what the calculated velocities would be if 0 deg F and 130 deg F were used?

Coming from where I am-Victoria, both temperatures should be possible in the span of a day ;)
QL has so much to twist, I probably need a loong time to tweak it in its entirety-All I got to do is wait for the Grendel to get into my sweaty hands...
Cheers