Training....we don't need no stinking training!!

[bwaites]

From the May 2011 American Rifleman:

According to the Army standards and training manual, PAM 350-38 (2009 version), a Regular Army light infantryman should fire about 1,200 rounds a year, assuming he participates in everything: basic marksmanship, day-night qualification, unit live-fire exercises, shooting in NBC gear, thermal and infrared (IR) sights, etc. His Guard and Reserve colleague should expend 660 rounds. But interviews show that almost nobody comes remotely close to that figure. Furthermore, for “plain vanilla” soldiers with access to shooting simulators, and who do not use thermal or IR sights, the specified annual expenditure is 490 rounds for active and 294 for Guard and Reserve.

I shoot about that many (1200) 7mm WSM rounds in a year, between practice and competition, and I shoot a very light F class schedule. I shoot 3-4 times that much Grendel, and 3-4 times that much 5.56.

I shoot about half that in handgun, (I need to shoot handgun more!).

We expect our warfighters to be proficient when they don't shoot any more ammo than some competition courses shoot in 2 days!!

WOW....Just WOW!!

NOT GOOD, NOT GOOD AT ALL!

[RStewart]

All I can say is 'WOW!"

[texasgrunt]

Peacetime between Desert Storm and OIF as a Marine Infantryman I would say we fired about 500 rounds annually. I had a secondary MOS as a range coach, so my count was quite a bit higher. But I always wondered why the range time was so low. Now as for blank ammo, we threw thousands of rounds in the brush every year to avoid the crazy carbon build-up. They usually sent us on high blank count training right before the GC inspection (go figure)! We spent more time cleaning our rifles than actually shooting.

[LR1955]

Bill / Guys:

This is why I view the NRA and the American Rifleman as unreliable sources when it comes to the military. I can't count the number of times some moron from the NRA has made the same stupid statement without stating how they came up with their numbers.

I imagine that their author either used anecdotal evidence or maybe found a STRAC manual (ignoring its date) and did some basic math based off of authorizations and units at full strength.

It may be true for CS and CSS units but it damn sure isn't for the Infantry or SF. And it is only true for the CS and CSS if their Commanders failed to ask for more ammo to train their Soldiers. I have not seen one unit commander at Battalion or Brigade level denied 5.56 because they shot more than their STRAC allowance for a year. This goes along with a CSA policy that originated in the early part of the GWOT where it was emphasized that every Soldier is an Infantryman and must train with their individual weapons.

When Infantry units do CQM training, it is not uncommon for them to blow through 400 - 500 rounds per man per day -- for a number of days. That 1200 number would be used up within three days of any conventional Infantry unit running any sort of CQM training. And they will do this type of training regularly throughout a year. As well as weapons density training, live fire training, zero and qualification, and probably a couple other ammo intensive training subjects I can't remember right now.
Although our guys are far better marksmen than probably any military on earth and particularly the enemies we are fighting today, blowing more ammo out of a carbine doesn't make anyone a better marksman -- combat, competitive, hunter, LEA, etc. That part the Army doesn't get as they still think that if 200 rounds in one day per man is good, 400 rounds in one day must be twice as good.

Siince the GWOT, there has not been any limit on 5.56 ball that I can recall. There has been shortages of 7.62 linked, .50 cal M-2 Ball linked, M-118 SB and LR, and 9mm but the shortages were cleared up relatively quickly -- within a couple of months -- and these shortages occurred circa 2K4 and 2K5.

So, the NRA ought to actually find out the facts by getting actual Class V consumption data, get up to date tables of organization so they can see who in these units uses what types of ammunition, take the TOE authorized personnel numbers and reduce them by 15%, then see how much ammo is consumed by what MOS during a year.

5.56 Ball? I have never seen a Regular outfit not get as much as they wanted, providing they actually requested it.

LR1955

[bwaites]

Thanks LR1955!

The reason I posted was to get your input and input from the other, "been there" guys! This was supposedly from the 2009 manual so its supposedly current.

Do the DM and sniper guys get enough M118 LR? Whats their process and how difficult is it? I know in talking to some of the guys they sometimes had a hard time finding enough for training and qualifying in the past.

[Sniper20]

As far as the sniper guys, I am not attached to a sniper unit, but have a few buddies of mine that are. They don't get to the range every drill weekend, but when they do, they usually have sore shoulders. They claim to do about 100+ rounds a day, and that is for a 2-3 day weekend.

Now on my side of it, I'm an MP in the Guard, and our primary weapon is the M9 pistol (Beretta 92FS) and I am LUCKY to shoot more than 50 rounds a YEAR. Our unit goes to the range once a year to qualify. We get a few "familiarization" rounds, and then the qual rounds. I usually have to go through a few times... Do I ever fail my qual? I only fail (in my eyes) when I score less than 100% hits. I'm quite proficient as I reload and I'm a recreational shooter. Now, for the others in my unit, not so much. So they are put in a lane next to me... see where this is going???

It's really sad because our M4 qual is the same way. We get 9 rounds to sight the rifles in, and then it's to the qual. I'm in a small little detachment, but it's still necessary in my eyes to stay up on your skills. It's like a surgeon that only gets one practice cut before performing triple bypass surgery. I think this is one reason that I'm opposed to the Guard. I love it, but there is just too much politics in it for me. The state claims that they need more funding, but they have all these O-6 and E-9's running around telling all the units how great they are, and they don't even know what our MOS is! Want to save some funding??? Cut officer pay and bull like that (sorry, little off topic there...).

Anyway, I would say those numbers are HIGH for what I have experienced... I have attended the TAG shoot for the state of NE once in my 7 years in the military, even though I have been offered to go MULTIPLE times, but the unit "does not have the funding" from the state. Not sure how they want us to get better when they don't give the opportunity...

[LR1955]

S20:

Everyone. Note I was careful to emphasize Regulars in my comments. Not the Guard or Reserve.

LR1955

[LR1955]

Thanks LR1955!

The reason I posted was to get your input and input from the other, "been there" guys! This was supposedly from the 2009 manual so its supposedly current.

Do the DM and sniper guys get enough M118 LR? Whats their process and how difficult is it? I know in talking to some of the guys they sometimes had a hard time finding enough for training and qualifying in the past.

Bill:

What manual are you referring to and how did the NRA come up with their figures?

DM's may get issued a Enhanced Battle Rifle for a deployment but the unit ends up turning them in so another unit can use them. The Army generally doesn't issue the EBRs soon enough in a pre-deployment cycle for anyone to get trained on them. Also, my personal experience with upwards of about 100 EBR's as of now indicates that most of them shoot issued M-80 ball more consistently than M-118. And I have yet to see an EBR that I would trust with my life.

Once again, there is no ASI or MOS for a DM. They do not have a special rifle or shoot special ammunition -- unless they are issued the EBR on deployment. Some units get the EBR on deployment and others don't. The DM for the most part shoots his issued M-4 Carbine with an ACOG and issued M-855 ball. I do not believe STRAC has a specific authorization for a DM other than a few more rounds of 5.56 M-855 a year if they go that far.

The question about sniper guys getting enough M-118 LR is not the right question to ask as it does not correlate with combat readiness in terms of the conventional side. If the 118 is used for training that has a rational purpose and with standards that can correspond with combat, then the 118 is being used well.

The problem with sniper teams on the conventional side is that most posts do not have sufficient range facilities the sniper teams can use to improve their combat readiness and take advantage of 118.

As for how much 118 a unit can get, we had shortages big time circa 2K4 to maybe 2K6 but we still got enough to prepare guys very well for Iraq and Afghanistan. After about 2K6 a unit could get more 118 but it was harder to get than ball ammo just because it is way more expensive so not as much is produced. If a unit justified its requirement for more 118 very well, I never saw it denied.

No, I can't tell you how many rounds are needed to sustain or improve a conventional sniper as it isn't the quantity of ammo that is an issue. It is the quality and consistency of training and the availability of training ranges for snipers.

LR1955

[Sniper20]

S20:

Everyone. Note I was careful to emphasize Regulars in my comments. Not the Guard or Reserve.

LR1955

I didn't mean to insinuate that this was the regulars way. I know they get much more range time than we do, and especially infantry. I didn't mean to discredit you by any means.

[bwaites]

Bill:

What manual are you referring to and how did the NRA come up with their figures?

Per the original post: According to the Army standards and training manual, PAM 350-38 (2009 version)


DM's may get issued a Enhanced Battle Rifle for a deployment but the unit ends up turning them in so another unit can use them. The Army generally doesn't issue the EBRs soon enough in a pre-deployment cycle for anyone to get trained on them. Also, my personal experience with upwards of about 100 EBR's as of now indicates that most of them shoot issued M-80 ball more consistently than M-118. And I have yet to see an EBR that I would trust with my life.

Once again, there is no ASI or MOS for a DM. They do not have a special rifle or shoot special ammunition -- unless they are issued the EBR on deployment. Some units get the EBR on deployment and others don't. The DM for the most part shoots his issued M-4 Carbine with an ACOG and issued M-855 ball. I do not believe STRAC has a specific authorization for a DM other than a few more rounds of 5.56 M-855 a year if they go that far.

The question about sniper guys getting enough M-118 LR is not the right question to ask as it does not correlate with combat readiness in terms of the conventional side. If the 118 is used for training that has a rational purpose and with standards that can correspond with combat, then the 118 is being used well.

The problem with sniper teams on the conventional side is that most posts do not have sufficient range facilities the sniper teams can use to improve their combat readiness and take advantage of 118.

As for how much 118 a unit can get, we had shortages big time circa 2K4 to maybe 2K6 but we still got enough to prepare guys very well for Iraq and Afghanistan. After about 2K6 a unit could get more 118 but it was harder to get than ball ammo just because it is way more expensive so not as much is produced. If a unit justified its requirement for more 118 very well, I never saw it denied.

No, I can't tell you how many rounds are needed to sustain or improve a conventional sniper as it isn't the quantity of ammo that is an issue. It is the quality and consistency of training and the availability of training ranges for snipers.

LR1955

That helps. I think we all recognize that simply sending rounds downrange is much less effective than appropriate instruction while doing so.

[LRRPF52]

Before we deployed to OIF, a team from 3rd SFG took a bunch of us out to do CQM at one of the ranges on Bragg. I put over 1100 rounds through my M4 in about 4 hours or less. That was not common though, by any means. We qualified more often than CS and CSS units, and did a lot of live fires during Squad LFX's, running battle drills and such. That was in the 82nd.

In 1st Brigade, 25th ID circa 1998, I think the line dogs had a regular LFX schedule, but I was in one of the Scout Platoons. We did some fun night-fire exercises in addition to regular qualification, but nowhere near as much shooting as I did in Korea on the DMZ.

In LRS, I didn't shoot a lot, but they were secretly getting us ready for deactivation, while allowing as many of us to re-enlist as possible before doing so, since the unit was so great to be in.

I think we qualified once a quarter in 1/506th Infantry on the DMZ in Korea, and did a lot of life-fire exercises focusing on METL tasks. We did a lot of sniper ranges with the M24's, and had 1st SFG run a SOTIC MTT for us. We got a SGM from SFOD-D, who immediately had a flat range built right next to BN HQ for CQM as well.

Throughout my time on active duty, I always shot as much as I could on my personal schedule. This really started to become more of a high-volume consumption when I was in LRS, 25th, and especially the 82nd. I don't feel, from my perspective, that we shot anywhere near enough in any of the units I was in, and practically every unit shot itself in the foot by switching weapons around so much: once you had a good zero and qual confidence with your blaster, you got another one reassigned because the armor and XO decided to re-arrange the rack numbers.

Every qual range, I would double-time back and forth between the ammo shack and my firing position between iterations, just to get trigger time. It didn't matter if I scored Expert every time, I just wanted to burn targets, since the Army's qualification range is one of the funnest stages of fire (if you can turn off all the BS coming from the people running the range, which was easy for me as an NCO), and use your better shooting techniques, versus that garbage they teach in BRM.

The military can take dozens of 18-24 yr-olds, tons of assault rifles, thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition, radio-controlled pop-up target ranges with 3D figures holding AK's, and turn it into a miserable experience.

[bwaites]

The military can take dozens of 18-24 yr-olds, tons of assault rifles, thousands upon thousands of rounds of ammunition, radio-controlled pop-up target ranges with 3D figures holding AK's, and turn it into a miserable experience.

How is that even possible! LOL :)

[LRRPF52]

How is that possible? Put people in charge of the range who use it as an opportunity to belittle soldiers, yell at them, criticize them, shove steel cleaning rods down the barrels from the muzzle end to "rod them onto the range", then condescend to the shooters, when half of them can't even shoot Expert themselves. Sorry, I was just having 82nd flashbacks...If leaders would just follow the regulations, crack open FM3-22.9 and read about peer coaching, Training the Trainer, wind reading, diagnosing groups, advanced rifle marksmanship ranges, etc., it would be a different story maybe.

Often you have a mass range that is more of an exercise in getting as many soldiers qualified, versus assessing and enhancing the unit's marksmanship capabilities or proficiency. Any range larger than a platoon-size will usually be a waste of time, unless you are already a good shooter and can repeatedly qualify Expert without help. The rest of the clan get rammed through, with little to no coaching, mentoring, diagnosing, or continual education, because the leadership climate is about stats, and much of the junior NCO corps has not been trained in how to properly conduct quality marksmanship instruction.

The most instructive and beneficial marksmanship exercises I have ever experienced were at the platoon-level or smaller. Company-sized ranges should be banned.

[bwaites]

I was being a little sarcastic. The government can find ways to lose money on a brothel in Nevada, they certainly can find a way to make 18-25 year olds hate shooting a rifle!

[LR1955]

I didn't mean to insinuate that this was the regulars way. I know they get much more range time than we do, and especially infantry. I didn't mean to discredit you by any means.

S20:

I didn't take it that way so don't sweat it. It is just that the Guard has more problems dealing with Class V than the Regulars even though the Guard has 'Full Timer's' whose job is to allocate and forecast ammunition. It is amazing that the Guard gets done as much as it does. So, I am very careful to differentiate between the Regulars, Guard, and Reserves. I would not be surprised if a Guard Infantry outfit only sees 1200 rounds of 5.56 per Rifleman during a FY -- unless they were specifically training for deployment.

As for your 9mm, I contend that if your unit wanted more, they could get more. However, it would be a lot harder to do than a regular MP outfit and it would take much more time to get.

Again though, folks would be amazed at how much the Guard does accomplish given two days a month and two weeks a year. It is pretty impressive.

LR1955

[texasgrunt]

Regarding the experiences you had during qualifications with the 82nd, that is one thing I did not experience with my units in the Marines. We actually spent a week dry firing, working on breathing, trigger control and sight alignment/picture. There was minimal hazing during this week or the following qualification week, but then we ran qualification alot more like a civilian marksmanship scenario with fixed location targets. The most stress we had was during 200yd rapid fire in the kneeling and 300yd rapidfire in the prone (10 rounds in 1 minute). I always wondered why we did it his way as we were not likely to have the convenience of not being a target during combat. It did instill some really good shooting habits, in me anyway. One well placed is better than 20 spray and pray...

After further memory diving, I guess we did fire a bit more than I indicated in my earlier post. We spent about 6 weeks a year at Puhakaloa (PTA) and ran almost continual field training, and ran through around 500-800 rounds. Line platoons probably did a little better (I was with anti-armor/demolitions platoon and spent a fair amount of my time on the SMAW range or the demo range). Still, I know we tossed more blanks in the shrubs than 855's down range.

grunt

[LRRPF52]

I actually edited out an entire paragraph of my last post discussing the USMC marksmanship program as it used to be, with specific descriptions mirroring yours (civilian marksmanship KD course), and how that background manifest itself in prior service guys from the Marines now shooting on an Army Qual range with UKD pop-up targets with 3 seconds of exposure...some adapted, others not so much. From what my buddies in the Marines are telling me about the new qual tables, they really enjoy them and have related how there is more of a practical focus in the new stages, but the old tables are still part of the scheme.

Why toss blanks in the shrubs, when you can throw them in a burn barrel? :rolleyes:

[texasgrunt]

We weren't allowed to play with matches and only the burn barrel guys were the POGs! When at Pendleton, we did use them to project cleaning rods through rattlesnakes. That was fun.

[LRRPF52]

When we first got M16A2's, we dutifully broke them in with cleaning rods and blanks. I was extremely surprised to see a cleaning rod fly as far as it did, and embed itself in a tree at about 150m...wonder what the BC is on a steel section of GI cleaning rod...

[texasgrunt]

We did set fire to a training area near San Mateo with blank hot brass from our M-60's. It was a pretty funny scene. Initially our boot lieutenant had us form up in a column of twos and doubletime to the fire area where we were then told to use our flak jackets to beat out the flames. Then when he figured out the flames were FAST and taller than we were he again called for us to form up so we could beat an orderly retreat from the scene. He didn't have much luck on an "organized advance to the rear", but we did set a bunch of individual land speed records. I think we wound up burning about 1000 acres or so. That was in 1992... Ah, the memories!

[LRRPF52]

In Korea, a fire started on one of the machinegun ranges, and the Korean civilian range control guys tried to fight a fire downhill, from an uphill position...they lost that battle, unfortunately for them, and perished in the flames.

[Harvest123]

Not that this is even close, but for trigger control, sight picture, manipulation of the mechanics of the firearm, I use a 22 conversion - which is dead accurate in cqb situations. I have also found that using a 22Lr is less intimdating with the kids I work with. They get a different bang using .223, and they love it.

I am not saying this is an end all solutions, but for round down range using Buis and other optics seems to give trigger time that I can afford. Also, a good instructor is worth 50 shots for every one shot unsupervise

[Allen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFwprS_L6tg