New AR and Cartridge

Fellows, dig this, found it on the Hornady website http://www.hornady.com/media/Sell_Sheet_450_Bushmaster.pdf

Joe

Yep, they have had advertisements in almost every gun magazine already! Once again lots of $$$ behind the introduction. It will be interesting to see how well it competes with the .50 Beowulf.

Well I first saw it with Bushmaster. Hornady is behind it so it's liable to take off. For one thing it's 45 caliber so there are a lot more bullets available for it. I noticed the rifling twist on it is extremely slow, 1 turn in 45 inches I believe. That's slower then even a lot of muzzle loaders.

Joe

...actually I should revise my previous statement. Looks like it will be more of a competitor with the .458 SOCOM than with the .50 Beowulf.

The Beowulf will attract those still looking for the "big .50".

The .458 SOCOM, however, has a direct competitor in the .45 Bushmaster. The Bushmaster will likely load more rounds in a magazine being straight walled.

Can't remember where I read it, but it was stated that 15 cartridges would fit into a 30 round magazine.

Joe

...actually I should revise my previous statement. Looks like it will be more of a competitor with the .458 SOCOM than with the .50 Beowulf.

The Beowulf will attract those still looking for the "big .50".

The .458 SOCOM, however, has a direct competitor in the .45 Bushmaster. The Bushmaster will likely load more rounds in a magazine being straight walled.

It will be interesting to see the performance and how Hornady achieves it. Recently they have been building their proprietary cartridges with special high energy powders not available to hand loaders. If the 450 Bushmaster does this, then 458 Socom will likely our perform it in handloads.

It will be interesting to see the performance and how Hornady achieves it. Recently they have been building their proprietary cartridges with special high energy powders not available to hand loaders. If the 450 Bushmaster does this, then 458 Socom will likely our perform it in handloads.



I am curious also. I note they have not posted any velocities...

I thought I read somewhere that the heaviest bullet you could use is in the 200-250gr range.. and it takes a .452 bullet

Its going to be a direct competitor to the 458 SOCOM.

Ant

Still I wonder, even with a .452 250 gr bullet why the twist is so slow, 45 acp runs a 16 twist.

Joe

Well I first saw it with Bushmaster. Hornady is behind it so it's liable to take off. For one thing it's 45 caliber so there are a lot more bullets available for it. I noticed the rifling twist on it is extremely slow, 1 turn in 45 inches I believe. That's slower then even a lot of muzzle loaders.

Joe


I called Hornady today about a custom FL die and inquired about the 450 Bushmaster. As far as design, it's Bushmaster's baby and Hornady is just providing a bullet and loading the ammo. The SAAMI specs haven't even been finalized, that's the reason why you see no velocity figures yet.

P.S. I bugged them about everything from another style of .20 bullet to producing 408 Cheytac dies, some lighter weight 6.5mm AMAX & VMAX bullets and thinking outside the box and producing Jones style bushing dies.

Way to go 457. I'd still like to know what the god awful slow 45 twist. My God, even Marlins cowboy rifles in 45 Colt are, or were, a 38 twist. A 45 twist is doggone near a muzzleloaders twist.

Joe

Way to go 457. I'd still like to know what the god awful slow 45 twist. My God, even Marlins cowboy rifles in 45 Colt are, or were, a 38 twist. A 45 twist is doggone near a muzzleloaders twist.

Joe


Off of the top of my head, it has to be to obtain the most velocity. FWIW, it's still only a pistol bullet and is not in the same ball park as the 458 SOCOM which can launch 500-600 grain slugs. Matter of fact, the 458 SOCOM loaded with the discontinued Barnes 500 RN solid is awesome.

I use to be with a big cast bullet group. They know and have done it all. I'm talking about pistol bullets here with this Bushmaster round. It's proved out that a 1 in 38 twist in 45 Colt the bullet becomes inaccurate at distance, like say 100 yards. If you look at revolver twist, S&W 45 cal twist is about 1 in 18.75. Ruger's is in that ball park. So a 1 in 45 twist is way too slow and that round isn't going to be pushing a 45 bullet much faster, if any at at, then say a 454 Casull. I think it's too slow. There's also a study in which a group of people now don't think that you lose very much accuracy, or any at all, in over stablization.

Joe

I use to be with a big cast bullet group. They know and have done it all. I'm talking about pistol bullets here with this Bushmaster round. It's proved out that a 1 in 38 twist in 45 Colt the bullet becomes inaccurate at distance, like say 100 yards. If you look at revolver twist, S&W 45 cal twist is about 1 in 18.75. Ruger's is in that ball park. So a 1 in 45 twist is way too slow and that round isn't going to be pushing a 45 bullet much faster, if any at at, then say a 454 Casull. I think it's too slow. There's also a study in which a group of people now don't think that you lose very much accuracy, or any at all, in over stablization.

Joe

I took some measurements and made some assumptions based on what I saw in that picture and from what I was told today. I plugged them in to come up with a 238 grain bullet, .452 dia. This bullet with a 1:45.6" twist @ 2000 fps would provide a stability factor of 1.5.

Somebody thinks it's not too slow as there are working models so we'll have to wait and see.

I would like to see shoot out between 3 round. Every thing equal, as to trigger pull to brrl length/wght.l

We're working on a bigbore shoot sometime next summer actually. My thoughts on the 450Bushy is that with a 250gr max bullet going at 2000fps, it will not have near the energy as the 458 or 50B at 100-200 yards. We're running 335gr bullets at 1950fps or so as plinking loads in the 50B!! Dangerous game or hog loads are 400gr or 350gr bullets typically. I bet you cannot run a 530gr steel tipped dangerous game bullet one minute and then a 300gr Gold Dot the next in a 450Bushy!! You can in both the 458 and the 50B!!

I would like to see shoot out between 3 round. Every thing equal, as to trigger pull to brrl length/wght.l

No reason it can't happen. I got together with a bunch of guys that all had Marlin 1895's in differing barrel lengths. It turned out we were all within 50 miles of each other. Just put it out there and see who is interested. I've got a Beowulf and always am looking for an excuse to shoot it with other "enthusiasts". Plus, it's a great chance to shoot other peoples guns and find out for myself if I really need that caliber.

GMMC testing 458scm. in a AR rifle w/16" brrl. there getting over 1800 fps. and they have 25 more brrl being made. A person in ILL. loads there ammo for testing. I talk w/them last weekend at gunshow inn MO..

Hornady website says a 250gr .452 bullet (tipped) at 2200fps.

Not a .458 socom, but not too shabby, either.

In all honesty, it sounds like the reverse of what they tried to do with the .307 and .308. The .308 was developed for semi autos, but some bright boy wanted a similar cartridge for levers. Something like a beefed up .30-30. The end result is the .307 which is a .308 with a flat nose (or the new soft poly tips now) and a .30-30 sized rim.

In this case they want a semi auto .45-70 I think...not that I am complaining. I LIKE big bores.

In all honesty, it sounds like the reverse of what they tried to do with the .307 and .308. The .308 was developed for semi autos, but some bright boy wanted a similar cartridge for levers. Something like a beefed up .30-30. The end result is the .307 which is a .308 with a flat nose (or the new soft poly tips now) and a .30-30 sized rim.

In this case they want a semi auto .45-70 I think...not that I am complaining. I LIKE big bores.



According to the Bushmaster website, it is based on a 6.5x.284 cartridge cut off at the neck for a .452 bullet...

Velly Interesting!

I am guessing it requires a .473 bolt face and a matching barrel extension.
:cool: :D