Questions about hunting

[Hellorian]

I have been wanting to build an AR of some type lately and have a couple of questions and statements.

1. I do not want to build a .308/7.62.
2. interested in 5.56 or 6.5 grendel mainly

A couple of friends have me doubting the 6.5 grendel. I would be using it for plinking, coyotes, and deer. Coyotes would probably be a max of 300 yards (how the field is) and for deer the limit would be what I was comfortable with. Two friends - one respected for his hunting and the other on a swat team keep telling me a 6.5 grendel wouldn't be a good gun for both coyotes and deer and they didn't think it would be ethical for deer. So my overall question is for people who hunt with the 6.5 grendel. I am interested knowing loads, distance, and type of game taken.

I have seen 817 yard shots on coyotes and saw pics of 400'ish yard kill on an elk. The longest shot I can see myself taking would be around 600 yards on a whitetail. Is this plausible to those of you who hunt with the 6.5 grendel?


PS neither of my friends have ever shot a 6.5G. One has an ar15 5.56 and the other has a lot of experience with firearms, but never shot an ar of any type.

Any and all information is appreciated.

[BjornF16]

Grendel is more than adequate for deer and coyotes. My first Grendel has taken 5 whitetails over the last two seasons, all using handloaded Hornady 129SST. I took it elk hunting in November loaded with AA factory Barnes 120 TSX (but didn't see any elk).

I'm taking my latest Grendel out this week for deer, hog, coyote using Berger 115 grn.

As far as max range...well that depends (scope, bullet/barrel ballistics, personal skill, etc). Some writers recommend a minimum of 800 ft-lbs of impact energy for an ethical kill on North American deer. That will equate to approx 400-500 yds in a Grendel shooting 120 grn bullet. I've read elsewhere 500 ft-lbs of energy...

Then of course, bullet design and impact area will play a factor...too many variables, it just depends.

The strength of Grendel is that it is a .264 bullet (which appears to be an optimum sectional density - maximizes penetration potential as well as great ballistic coefficients for long range shooting).

IMHO, you can't go wrong with a Grendel as your cartridge in AR-15 platform.

[JASmith]

The Grendel is at least as capable as the 243 Winchester, 257 Roberts, and 30-30 Winchester for deer and coyote. All four are better than the 6.8 SPC in terms of game-anchoring potential

Ask your friend to look over this article: http://shootersnotes.com/grendelmania/grendel-potential-for-large-game/ for a discussion of why.

[Costa]

Go with the Grendel.

Some 85gr. sierras loaded up with 28.5 grains of IMR 8208 and 7.5 primers is very accurate and deadly on yotes. For dear I have the custom 115gr. berger loaded by AA. Have killed a deer with it, but shot a 225lb hog with it around 450 yds and dropped it.

[Whelenon]

I agree with BjornF16 and suggest you take a look at your maximum range and how much ft/lb of energy is delivered. Can you, with good shot placement, make an ethical kill? How much energy needed for an ethical kill is debatable, I've read 3-5 time the animals weight(150lb deer = 450-750 ft/lb) you have to make that decision. For me and my hunting requirements <450yds the Grendel is an excellent deer/coyote round, no doubt in my mind.

Almost forgot, welcome to the board.

[Hellorian]

I appreciate the comments. My longest kill was just over 600 yards - dropped a good size doe from my hunting blind. But I have read stories of people shooting deer with good placement but because of lack of damage it gets away and some are lucky enough to track it and find it eventually. It seems like quite a few hunters give up too easily after a hit and just shoot again instead of finding wounded animal.

Again thanks for the comments and info. I will read the article - I think I will make the 6.5G

[Kikn]

It seems like quite a few hunters give up too easily after a hit and just shoot again instead of finding wounded.

I wouldn't want to be that person when the game warden sees it....

My friend Joe was guiding a duck hunt and his shooter made an ill advised shot and the duck was swept away down river rather quickly. Neither Joe noir the dog was able to catch up to the duck. Shortly there after he was approached by the game warden and told that he was watching and was glad he went after the duck do he didn't have to take punish them according to the law...

[toolsofthetrade]

I would be curious why they think the 6.5 would be less than satisfactory for deer?
sounds like ignorance to me...no disrespect, just saying maybe they aren't familiar with the cartridge.

[hm2 clark]

It's good you can hit out to 600 yards. My limit is around 400. I believe that at 600 yards the 6.5 grendel with a 120gr hunting bullet can penetrate to a deers vitals, and kill it on the spot, if you can place the bullet. At ranges beond 250 yards I try and remember that it's not energy that kills a deer, but rather penetration and exsangunation. Without knowing your hunter friend, does he have expierence with the 6.5x55 @ 600 yards? The Grendel kills deer about as well. And as for asking your swat friend??? What does that have to do with deer hunting? Rest asured the Grendel kills as well as a .308.......depending... on bullet choice...shot placment ...deer size ...barrel length..

[Costa]

Just a thought here, but you could go to a .260 remington or 6.5-08. This will move you up to an AR10 platform, which will cost and weigh more, but based on my ballistic calculator the extra velocity will give you approximately 100ft-lbs more energy at 600 yards than the same bullet in the grendel. It could make the difference between a clean kill vs a wounded animal.

[Whelenon]

When I was looking at AR's I considered the 260 Remington and 6.5 Creedmoore but that meant the AR-10 platform and a 10-12 lb gun. I wanted a light weight hunting rifle so I went with the AR-15. For the AR-15, I considered the 6.8 SPC and the Grendel. I went with the 6.5 because it's just a better all-around cartridge. So I ended up with an effective deer hunting rifle w/scope that's super accurate, has low recoil and weighs 7-1/2 lbs. That's sweet.

[Hellorian]

Now the big thing is deciding what the build is going to be. I will be posting some questions in the building section. I basically know what I want, it will be finding what I want and see what others w/ more experience think too. I will post it when I get back from shooting tomorrow probs.

[Mutt]

Don't take Grendel advise from friends ..... especially friends who have never even seen a Grendel cartridge.

It's about as effective as a .308

[speederx7]

Don't take Grendel advise from friends ..... especially friends who have never even seen a Grendel cartridge.

It's about as effective as a .308

exactly...

[Ullr]

The Grendel is nowhere near as effective as a .308. At the muzzle, the .308 has 1000 FPE energy more than the Grendel - that's about 60% more. At 300 yards, the .308 has more energy than the Grendel does at the muzzle. At 500 yards, the Grendel is below 1000 FPE, while the .308 can easily be hauling 1350 FPE at that distance. The .308 can do all of this with a bullet that is designed for hunting, that makes a 40% bigger hole than the 6.5, and that has 50% more mass and a higher sectional density than the Grendel. The Grendel is a fine hunting cartridge, but it is no .308.

The Grendel is more like an extended range .30-30. The two start out with about the same energy, but the Grendel holds on to it for about twice the distance thanks to its skinny, pointy bullets. That is nothing to sneeze at. The .30-30 was the laser death ray of its time, and was used to great effect on deer, elk, and moose out to 150 yards or so. The Grendel can bring that .30-30 hurt out to 300 yards. That isnt a .308 (which carries that same impact out to 500 yards) but it is a damn fine hunting round.

Proof:

684

:)

[LRRPF52]

I have to agree that the .308 simply has way more retained energy on target, unless we start talking about some of the heavier 6.5 projectiles past 500yds, like the 140gr VLD's and 144gr FMJ. The .308 also has a lot more recoil than the Grendel, but their trajectories are very similar.

I think the "extended range .30-30" is an appropriate layman's explanation of the Grendel, since we have similar case capacities. An "extended range 7.62x39" would be even more descriptive. I have owned 3 different .308 AR10's, and I have no plans to ever build one again, I can say that. I do have a .260 Rem AR10 that I love, but I ain't humpin it all over the place anytime soon, which is where the Grendel comes in.

My next build will most likely be an 18" or 20" Grendel with a totally different enlarged bolt and barrel extension, so I can ignore the limitations of the AR15 bolt size, and hot-rod the Grendel to push 100fps faster across the projectile weights. I already know the case can take it.

[Whelenon]

I guess for most everything starts and ends with the 30 caliber bullet so I agree if you want to compare it to a mainstream cartridge it's the 30-30 but I think the 257 Roberts is more comparable in terms of energy delivered. IMHO

[JASmith]

Kinetic energy at the target is OK as long as you are looking at about the same caliber and bullet.

Penetration depth and expanded bullet size are better indicators when going over large differences in caliber and bullet weight.

We get that metric by taking the momentum density (m*v/dia^2) and multiplying by the weight (m). I know it sounds strange, but Steve Johnson worked that out while he was at Hornady and it seems to make sense. The method is implemented at http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator.

The Grendel fares very well against the .243 Win, .257 Roberts, and 30-30 as well as being significantly better than the 6.8 SPC when using this metric.

[stokesrj]

The only thing wrong with these comparisons is the notion that more energy is equal to more dead. It doesn't take much energy to humanely dispatch an animal if the energy is applied correctly. I've taken a lot of game with the .308 and 30-06 which are both very effective big game cartridges. However, I have also taken a lot of game with low energy cartridges and even more with a bow and arrow. What I have learned is that shot placement is the most critical factor by far.
Marketers try to brand effectiveness and boil it down to simple issues such as caliber or bullet, but taking a game animal humanely is much more complex than the convenient brand marketer would like.
Though complex it is also simple, to take a game animal cleanly means that removal of a vital organ is required. Very few foot pounds of energy are required to disrupt the nervous system of most big game animals. However extreme accuracy is required, but if accomplished death is quick and mobility is not an issue. examples would be a brain or spinal shot near the brain.
Cardio vascular shots require more energy because, depending on the shot angle, penetration of significant muscle and/or bone may be required to reach the vital organs and remove their function.
Based on my field experience of taking several hundred head of big game, I would summarize that the Grendel is as capable as the .308 if used with knowledge and precision. And, just for the record I have had difficult recoveries on big game with less than optimum shot placement with the .308. The only animal I have failed to recover was a mountain goat I shot with a .300 Weatherby Magnum that I shot a around 50 yards. The bullet I was using was a 200 grain Nosler Patition, and shot placement was through the center of the shoulder muscles broad side. The goat walked a few steps and jumped over a cliff into Price William Sound.
If I were to take that shot over today, and using a Grendel, I guarantee you I would anchor that goat with one shot.
Bob
Bob

[HANKA]

So, Bob, you had just a little trouble tracking that goat? No blood trail? ;)

John

[VASCAR2]

Reading on this site is just as addictive as the 6.5 Grendel rifles. Best entertainment tonight for sure!

[vanguard138]

And no DUI.....LOL

[Hellorian]

I will be heading over to the build forums with some questions for people.