Training Under Physical Stress

[LR1955]

Guys:

In the 'Physical' thread, Warped and Buck commented on training while under physical stress.

In that thread, Warped stated: "I recently volunteered to train a few police officers, unfortunately they did not appreciate me making them run around a car until their hearts were in their throats and then to pick up a rifle and shoot."

OK guys -- look at this type of training and offer your comments about such things as points you would emphasize, conditions, standards, etc. I think good comments would probably assist guys who are sitting on a range wondering what else they can do aside from sitting on a bench and sand bagging a rifle.

LR-1955

[warped]

Gene I am sure you and others are aware why I made them shoot while their hearts were trying to beat their way out of the chest.

When adrenaline hits, they will be experiencing that same difficulty in controlling a weapon and hitting the intended target.

Many of them shoot fairly often, without stress fire they may well not be able to perform while under fire.

[rkflorey]

You are spot on about physical induced stress to try and imitate the physiological stress that occurs in real life. Sometimes the whining is just a way to deal with the fact that they are not in shape and don't want to admit it, in other cases it's a way the ones in shape try to encourage the others to deal with it and move on.
The military and the more experienced civilian tactical units I have had the chance to train with all use physical stress as a training tool, and as training is expensive, they would not stick with something that was not working.
Keep up the good work, and the ones that get into the training will improve faster than the ones who don't. What some of these officers don't understand is that it is alot easier for the instructor to stand at a static line and point than it is to run around with the shooters and keep them motivated.
We had an exercise that started officers at the fifty yard line, behind misc. pieces of cover that required them to shoot from uncomfortable positions. After firing 5 rounds on paper targets we made sure the line was safe and rifles were onsafe then the group runs down to their targets to check and tape them. The group runs back to the firing line and shifts to the next piece of cover in line. A range officers confirms the range is clear and the next shooting position/ cover is used. This continues until every officer fires from all positions. We used roll over prone, firing through small openings, unlevel ground etc. and whatever cover you can imagine or pull from on the job experience to shoot from over or around. The instructors get a good workout themselves and with a couple of groups it can get tiring.
We got alot of bitching but overall the end feedback was great. We called it the Gauntlet.

[LR1955]

You are spot on about physical induced stress to try and imitate the physiological stress that occurs in real life. Sometimes the whining is just a way to deal with the fact that they are not in shape and don't want to admit it, in other cases it's a way the ones in shape try to encourage the others to deal with it and move on. The military and the more experienced civilian tactical units I have had the chance to train with all use physical stress as a training tool, and as training is expensive, they would not stick with something that was not working. Keep up the good work, and the ones that get into the training will improve faster than the ones who don't. What some of these officers don't understand is that it is alot easier for the instructor to stand at a static line and point than it is to run around with the shooters and keep them motivated.
We had an exercise that started officers at the fifty yard line, behind misc. pieces of cover that required them to shoot from uncomfortable positions. After firing 5 rounds on paper targets we made sure the line was safe and rifles were onsafe then the group runs down to their targets to check and tape them. The group runs back to the firing line and shifts to the next piece of cover in line. A range officers confirms the range is clear and the next shooting position/ cover is used. This continues until every officer fires from all positions. We used roll over prone, firing through small openings, unlevel ground etc. and whatever cover you can imagine or pull from on the job experience to shoot from over or around. The instructors get a good workout themselves and with a couple of groups it can get tiring. We got alot of bitching but overall the end feedback was great. We called it the Gauntlet.

RK:

What did you learn that you know you can repeat on demand, no matter the conditions, and have confidence that you will be successful? If anything, how was it trained and how did the drills contribute to your success -- or failure?

LR1955

[LR1955]

Gene I am sure you and others are aware why I made them shoot while their hearts were trying to beat their way out of the chest. When adrenaline hits, they will be experiencing that same difficulty in controlling a weapon and hitting the intended target. Many of them shoot fairly often, without stress fire they may well not be able to perform while under fire.

Randy:

What did you train them to do right and how did you evaluate them in terms of performance and confidence?

LR55

[warped]

I think the ones who would listen, will be able to cope with an adrenaline dump, understand how to deal with increased breathing and how to break the shot on the ebb.

I looked for increased ability to hit the targets under stress, I truly did not care how well they were shooting at rest, that is too easy.

Attitudes for some of them changed and I saw that the ones without the superiority complex were the ones that benefited.

We previously had grabbed them by the back of the vests and moved them to simulate a situation where they could not get stable (pistol) it would work for offhand rifle as well.

BTW I was not alone that day as instructor, I had the course materials and plan but I did get a few assistants from my group of friends.

It is not easy to get enough 1 on 1 time and the extra hands and eyes help me a great deal, I don't have your vast experience working with people outside military or indigenous personnel while OCONUS.


The other thing that I tried to impart is that when shooting through a barrier or near an object, is to not get up on it or project the muzzle through, that gets you identified and shot or has the object creating a hazard when it gets hit by return fire, loopholes are not weapon ports.

They need area to maneuver and being that close does not leave room to move, stacking up on a corner is not good either when facing strong opposition, it makes the stack an easy target. It is merely the old drill of slicing the pie and not bunching up like they got taught elsewhere. Sometimes the bad guys have training too.

[LR1955]

I think the ones who would listen, will be able to cope with an adrenaline dump, understand how to deal with increased breathing and how to break the shot on the ebb.

I looked for increased ability to hit the targets under stress, I truly did not care how well they were shooting at rest, that is too easy.

Attitudes for some of them changed and I saw that the ones without the superiority complex were the ones that benefited.

We previously had grabbed them by the back of the vests and moved them to simulate a situation where they could not get stable (pistol) it would work for offhand rifle as well.

BTW I was not alone that day as instructor, I had the course materials and plan but I did get a few assistants from my group of friends.

It is not easy to get enough 1 on 1 time and the extra hands and eyes help me a great deal, I don't have your vast experience working with people outside military or indigenous personnel while OCONUS.


The other thing that I tried to impart is that when shooting through a barrier or near an object, is to not get up on it or project the muzzle through, that gets you identified and shot or has the object creating a hazard when it gets hit by return fire, loopholes are not weapon ports.

They need area to maneuver and being that close does not leave room to move, stacking up on a corner is not good either when facing strong opposition, it makes the stack an easy target. It is merely the old drill of slicing the pie and not bunching up like they got taught elsewhere. Sometimes the bad guys have training too.

Randy:

Roger -- you and your crew trained some common tasks such as stand off from barricades etc.

I was getting at skills. Did you guys train on any skills? For example, did you guys provide any training on stress control to enhance their performance? How about focused training on Situational Awareness with exercises where you could evaluate them?

If you guys did any skills training, can you comment on the techniques you guys instilled how did you guys evaluated them?

LR55

[warped]

Controlled breathing, how to inhale for two, let out for a four count, break the shot at the bottom of four but without hesitation.

This way they do not break the shot high, if there is a miss you can get the lower extremities, the high miss could be a bystander or other.

The common lesson was to be able to control the adrenaline and breathing in order to be able to perform as required.

This is something we all learned when guys like you made us run in full gear and then shoot, shoot and shoot more.

Push-ups and then shoot is another good stress drill.

Anything that takes them out of the comfort zone and can simulate the worst of conditions is a good lesson.

We also taught weak side and transition, using strong side on the opposite side of a object exposes far too much, your strong side can be injured or worse.

I will dig out the lesson plan and email you if I can find the hard copies that were left over.

[LR1955]

Controlled breathing, how to inhale for two, let out for a four count, break the shot at the bottom of four but without hesitation.

This way they do not break the shot high, if there is a miss you can get the lower extremities, the high miss could be a bystander or other.

The common lesson was to be able to control the adrenaline and breathing in order to be able to perform as required.

This is something we all learned when guys like you made us run in full gear and then shoot, shoot and shoot more.

Push-ups and then shoot is another good stress drill.

Anything that takes them out of the comfort zone and can simulate the worst of conditions is a good lesson.

We also taught weak side and transition, using strong side on the opposite side of a object exposes far too much, your strong side can be injured or worse.

I will dig out the lesson plan and email you if I can find the hard copies that were left over.

Warped / Guys:

I believe doctrine has changed from weak / strong side transition to using the strong side -- even if more of the body is exposed. The reason is simple, a right handed shooter has a higher chance of a hit if he shoots right handed and is also faster in his movements under these conditions so although he may expose more of his body shooting around a barricade, it is exposed for less time.

Here is a training point that may be of value and it isn't a hit on Warped. He said that they emphasized the LEA shooting when their breath was out totally in order to ensure shots stayed low due to collateral damage risks.

What assumptions are being made and are they valid?

Also, how does this focus on taking a shot when the breath is totally exhaled affect attentional focus and situational awareness?

Think about it in terms of guys who have just done some sort of hard exercise such as sprinting around police cars and doing push ups.

Again -- no hit on Warped but the scenario brings up excellent points on focus and training.

LR1955

[bucktact6.5]

I have tried both when it come's to controlled breathing under physical stress. For me the half way out exhale before my shot work's better. But that's more than likely my fault for not being in top physical condition!

[Anschutz]

Here at West Point we have had two main events that were stress fires. We had our squad of 7-9 depending on availability and targets that would pop up from 50m to 300m. They used smoke, Artillery Sims, and had NCOs, Officers and Cadre walking by screaming in your ear that your men were going to die if you missed. We set up fields of fire. Alpha Team got one side of the range and Bravo got another. Each team selected one member to engage targets past 200m. Then we would "target talk" and engage in our sectors. For example a combatant and civilian target pop up at 50 left sector and 125 meters center I would yell "left side 50 meters, kill 'em... middle 125 civvie, civvie don't shoot". To take care of the noises and other pressures there are three things you need to do. 1) Do everything just as you would if they weren't there 2) Breathe normally 3)Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. It will take a good bit of practice but effective once you grasp it.

[noone]

There was a really interesting cardio/stress exercise at a close quarters rifle match recently. Three targets placed 50 yards down range. There are three barricades, each one having an eight by eight inch port ten inches off the ground. Shooters fire one round (ONLY ONE) through each port at the single target downrange. There is one target for each barricade, move to the next port, fire only one round, and repeat at each port for two minutes. Your score is however many hits you get in the target during that 120 seconds. The first 45-75 seconds aren't too bad...the last minute or so can be a real gasser though.

There simply isn't any denying the lack of cardio in this exercise. The port is too low for kneeling or seated, and too high for prone...it is designed to be awkward as hell, and it works great.

[warped]

I would use a modified high prone.

Elbow on the ground, lower arm raised and flat palm like a rifle rest, upper torso raised up on firing elbow as well.

I have found some other unorthodox positions, that one is pretty normal.

My problem is that I need a better cardio fitness, I need to either ride my bike or start chasing younger women...

[bwaites]

IMy problem is that I need a better cardio fitness, I need to either ride my bike or start chasing younger women...

Yeah, that will improve your cardio, from ducking the punches and running from the stuff your wife is throwing!

[warped]

Yeah, that will improve your cardio, from ducking the punches and running from the stuff your wife is throwing!
Exactly!

[noone]

Warped,
High prone was my thought when I saw the barricades. But the barricade port is deliberately designed so you can't get a sight picture from prone...not even if you elevate the front of your body. The only position that works is to kneel down, and put your rifle on it's side and shoot that way. You can't get low enough in seated, and you can't go high enough in prone..devilishly clever design on the ports.

[noone]

There used to be a famous course of fire out here that started at 400 yards using 3 paper IPSC targets. You shoot two rounds only on each target, then move forward ever 50 yards repeat this until you shoot the final 6 shots are offhand at 200 yards. As time is also a factor, and there is a time limit, there is no way to run slowly to sandbag lest you run out of time. I think most of the 200 yard shots are misses due to cardiovascular issues. Even if you go at a slow jog, with all the rising, running, and getting into position, I was always sucking wind by the 250 yard line.

[txgunner00]

There was a monthly match at my local shooting range they called a "precision rifle match". It was set up a lot like a 2 gun carbine match except you engaged targets out to 800 yds. Most stages involved using a pistol to "fight" your way to a FFP and then engaging steel targets from intermediate to long ranges. Super fun and very valuable training. Unfortunately. they guy putting them on had to take a break and they haven't been restarted.

[LRRPF52]

The most important ingredients missing from every practical firearms course or competition I have attended are:

1) Fear of imminent bodily harm or death
2) Pain from injury

They are extremely difficult to produce in a training environment, although the Wermacht did a "good" job of it by allowing a certain percentage of casualty losses in training.

One of the best training experiences I had in my military career was when a guy who was a Mogadishu vet came up behind me on one of the rare instances that we were shooting on a KD range. I was in the prone, shooting slow-fire for groups with my M4, and all of a sudden, I felt the tip of his jungle boot just above my family jewels, ready to crush them if he wanted with ease. He slowly applied slight pressure every time he saw me getting ready to break the shot, but I just chose not to flinch and drive on, as there was nothing else to do. That would be an extremely unnerving experience for most people, since you couldn't move or do anything other than continue to shoot. Cool heads prevail in those situations.

Most courses or competitions settle for getting your cardiovascular system pumping to simulate stress, but there is night and day difference between adrenal response stress, and cardiovascular stress, while they can be combined of course.

[Schwag173]

The most important ingredients missing from every practical firearms course or competition I have attended are:

1) Fear of imminent bodily harm or death
2) Pain from injury

They are extremely difficult to produce in a training environment, although ...


The possible exception to this is paintball and/or SIMunitions. While they aren't live-fire, I was always strongly motivated to avoid getting hit. Face shield/helmets are a must, but getting thwacked in the thigh, arm or nads with a projectile was a real concern. And the colder the temp, the harder the projectile is. It can hurt, been there ...

[txgunner00]

Simunitions are no joke. Every time I got hit I bled. I learned quickly how to not get hit. :)

[LRRPF52]

The best simunitions force-on-force exercises are conducted with shirts off, as the hero mentality with the pads and protective gear disappears real quick. There was a guy who owned and ran a range complex outside the Bragg area that used to do this when he saw guys doing things that they normally wouldn't do under fire.

I've witnessed certain units specifically targeting exposed limbs and hands to get around this problem, when everyone was fully-kitted up. Good training-totally different than a BS MILES gear exercise. MILES will earn someone a slot in hell, whoever invented it.

[bwaites]

Paintball with TShirts and gyms shorts, cups optional. Face masks required. No other padding or shields.

Some guys can run through the hail of paintballs, even then. For them, refrigerated paintballs seems to solve the problem!

[LRRPF52]

We need taser paint balls and sims. I had an idea I was keeping close to my vest, even though it was on Starship Troopers, but I think it was debuted at SHOT this year. It's a laser engagement system that interfaces with a suit you wear, that shocks the snot out of you. I wanted to do a sublayer with electrodes running throughout the surface area, to simulate accurate hits anywhere on target.

[txgunner00]

The best simunitions force-on-force exercises are conducted with shirts off, as the hero mentality with the pads and protective gear disappears real quick. There was a guy who owned and ran a range complex outside the Bragg area that used to do this when he saw guys doing things that they normally wouldn't do under fire.

I've witnessed certain units specifically targeting exposed limbs and hands to get around this problem, when everyone was fully-kitted up. Good training-totally different than a BS MILES gear exercise. MILES will earn someone a slot in hell, whoever invented it.

No joke. Some of the most worthless garbage I've ever dealt with.

[txgunner00]

Paintball with TShirts and gyms shorts, cups optional. Face masks required. No other padding or shields.

Some guys can run through the hail of paintballs, even then. For them, refrigerated paintballs seems to solve the problem!

Oooo- getting awfully brave there... especially with someone that likes to play dirty from time to time. Not that I know anyone like that.:o

[txgunner00]

We need taser paint balls and sims. I had an idea I was keeping close to my vest, even though it was on Starship Troopers, but I think it was debuted at SHOT this year. It's a laser engagement system that interfaces with a suit you wear, that shocks the snot out of you. I wanted to do a sublayer with electrodes running throughout the surface area, to simulate accurate hits anywhere on target.

Now THAT sounds like some good training!

Beep, Beep, Beep. ZZZZZtttTTTT. Ahhhhhhh! LOL

Only down side is you could take cover behind what would normally only be concealment, but that's a problem with any of them.

[Variable]

The best simunitions force-on-force exercises are conducted with shirts off, as the hero mentality with the pads and protective gear disappears real quick. There was a guy who owned and ran a range complex outside the Bragg area that used to do this when he saw guys doing things that they normally wouldn't do under fire.

I've witnessed certain units specifically targeting exposed limbs and hands to get around this problem, when everyone was fully-kitted up. Good training-totally different than a BS MILES gear exercise. MILES will earn someone a slot in hell, whoever invented it.
I like my agencies sims training. Ours is pretty good in my opinion. When we go through the shoot houses in Quantico we aren't allowed to wear any padding, and we are also checked to make sure. We wear the face mask and throat protector only. We do wear our BDUs though, and no one volunteers to go through it in a t-shirt!LOL.

I did shoot the living dog snot out of one of our instructors who was crazy enough to jump out at us with two glocks blazing in some kinda weird Hollywood move once. He was only wearing a polo shirt and some royal robins, and he looked like he went through a pile of broken glass with hornets in it after we stopped shooting.LOL. I actually felt bad for him once I saw how bad he got pasted. His arms were shredded and his chest and back were really bad. I get so wound up doing that stuff that I couldn't get off the trigger soon enough. He was close when he popped out, and I shot him 11 times before he could make himself fall all the way down. My supe was up front with me and he shot him three times too. We had to count the remaining rounds in our mags to figure it out.

[txgunner00]

I like my agencies sims training. Ours is pretty good in my opinion. When we go through the shoot houses in Quantico we aren't allowed to wear any padding, and we are also checked to make sure. We wear the face mask and throat protector only. We do wear our BDUs though, and no one volunteers to go through it in a t-shirt!LOL.

I did shoot the living dog snot out of one of our instructors who was crazy enough to jump out at us with two glocks blazing in some kinda weird Hollywood move once. He was only wearing a polo shirt and some royal robins, and he looked like he went through a pile of broken glass with hornets in it after we stopped shooting.LOL. I actually felt bad for him once I saw how bad he got pasted. His arms were shredded and his chest and back were really bad. I get so wound up doing that stuff that I couldn't get off the trigger soon enough. He was close when he popped out, and I shot him 11 times before he could make himself fall all the way down. My supe was up front with me and he shot him three times too. We had to count the remaining rounds in our mags to figure it out.

DAMN. I bet he regretted that in the morning.

We had a brain donor in my unit, as everyone does, that though it would be funny to "execute" a sergeant nobody liked. Shot him at point blank range in the top of his head and it triggered a seizure. Scarry shit. Brain donor got NJP.

[LRRPF52]

I like my agencies sims training. Ours is pretty good in my opinion. When we go through the shoot houses in Quantico we aren't allowed to wear any padding, and we are also checked to make sure. We wear the face mask and throat protector only. We do wear our BDUs though, and no one volunteers to go through it in a t-shirt!LOL.

I did shoot the living dog snot out of one of our instructors who was crazy enough to jump out at us with two glocks blazing in some kinda weird Hollywood move once. He was only wearing a polo shirt and some royal robins, and he looked like he went through a pile of broken glass with hornets in it after we stopped shooting.LOL. I actually felt bad for him once I saw how bad he got pasted. His arms were shredded and his chest and back were really bad. I get so wound up doing that stuff that I couldn't get off the trigger soon enough. He was close when he popped out, and I shot him 11 times before he could make himself fall all the way down. My supe was up front with me and he shot him three times too. We had to count the remaining rounds in our mags to figure it out.

That's the right answer. I will say that face shots should be avoided, even though you're wearing masks, and use masks, not just goggles. I kid from Ranger Regiment had a sims go under his Bolle goggles, and it damaged his eye pretty bad. I don't know if he recovered or not from it, but it was pretty serious. This was some pre-deployment training at Bragg in 2002, IIRC. Better to pass that lesson on from hearing it, than wearing it.

[bwaites]

Back 10-15 years ago I played a lot of paintball, and one injury that we all were scared to death of were eye injuries. However, the eye and the testicle actually are very similar in density and toughness. While we only allowed players to play who played with full face masks, some players chose to go without cups.

Well, they did until a guy posted his story online, including pictures, of his testicular injury. 300 FPS doesn't sound fast when you are used to discussing 2-3000 FPS, but when a paintball hits at close to that velocity, tremendous trauma ensues. Its a testament to how well designed we are that sometimes there isn't even a welt or bruise.

Sims, paintballs, even airsoft pellets can do tremendous damage, especially at the ranges that most hits happen.

They are good training if used properly. At one point, there were enough of us playing competitively that we tried to talk the local sherriffs and PD's into using us as a hostage taker/terrorists aggressors. I wasn't available, but the guys that played said that the poor cops took a serious beating, and wouldn't try it again. The regular paintballers were MUCH more aggressive and focused than the cops, who simply hadn't had that kind of experience previously. Some of them began playing competetive paintball because of the experience, while others bad mouthed the paintball group as cheaters.

LRRPF and I have discussed this previously, but it comes down to being willing to keep going, period. Most cops have to work hard to develop that mentality in the face of fire, and its not natural to those who have not been soldiers previously, especially.

[Variable]

Back 10-15 years ago I played a lot of paintball, and one injury that we all were scared to death of were eye injuries. However, the eye and the testicle actually are very similar in density and toughness. While we only allowed players to play who played with full face masks, some players chose to go without cups.

Well, they did until a guy posted his story online, including pictures, of his testicular injury. 300 FPS doesn't sound fast when you are used to discussing 2-3000 FPS, but when a paintball hits at close to that velocity, tremendous trauma ensues. Its a testament to how well designed we are that sometimes there isn't even a welt or bruise.

Sims, paintballs, even airsoft pellets can do tremendous damage, especially at the ranges that most hits happen.

They are good training if used properly. At one point, there were enough of us playing competitively that we tried to talk the local sherriffs and PD's into using us as a hostage taker/terrorists aggressors. I wasn't available, but the guys that played said that the poor cops took a serious beating, and wouldn't try it again. The regular paintballers were MUCH more aggressive and focused than the cops, who simply hadn't had that kind of experience previously. Some of them began playing competetive paintball because of the experience, while others bad mouthed the paintball group as cheaters.

LRRPF and I have discussed this previously, but it comes down to being willing to keep going, period. Most cops have to work hard to develop that mentality in the face of fire, and its not natural to those who have not been soldiers previously, especially.
I forgot about cups. Those are allowed, but I've never worn one. I don't remember anyone else using one either. I did fold up a chintzy hand towel and stuff it in my pants the first time we did it, but I haven't since.

My main real complaint about sims or paintball (and I know there's nothing really that could be done about it) is that concealment becomes cover. I constantly harp about it to anyone around me when we train. When someone is concealed around the corner I won't wait for them to pop back out. I'll shoot them through the corner (depending on the circumstances of course). Plywood and sheetrock are not cover, and most of the the structures in my duty environment aren't either. I always worry about cops treating a bad guys concealment as cover.

[Schwag173]

... Plywood and sheetrock are not cover, and most of the the structures in my duty environment aren't either. I always worry about cops treating a bad guys concealment as cover.

Exactly; train as you fight, fight as you train. Years ago, I arranged for my local LE training program to be held at a rural rifle club that let us drive our patrol-cars right out onto the range. It was best for the guys I was training because that's 95% of our shooting incidents - in and around patrol-cars. Anyway, things went great for a couple of years until one guy accidentally put a nice clean .40" hole through his passenger-door mirror (didn't notice it until the next day). The pencil-pushers then put the halt on my training and put us back on the centuries-old static firing-line paper-target routine. Instead of chalking up a rare $100 repair expense as an accident and the price of effective, possibly life-saving training .... they'd rather mandate training that was valuable only on paper. Gotta love office-dwellers ...

[txgunner00]

Back 10-15 years ago I played a lot of paintball, and one injury that we all were scared to death of were eye injuries. However, the eye and the testicle actually are very similar in density and toughness. While we only allowed players to play who played with full face masks, some players chose to go without cups.

Well, they did until a guy posted his story online, including pictures, of his testicular injury. 300 FPS doesn't sound fast when you are used to discussing 2-3000 FPS, but when a paintball hits at close to that velocity, tremendous trauma ensues. Its a testament to how well designed we are that sometimes there isn't even a welt or bruise.

Sims, paintballs, even airsoft pellets can do tremendous damage, especially at the ranges that most hits happen.

They are good training if used properly. At one point, there were enough of us playing competitively that we tried to talk the local sherriffs and PD's into using us as a hostage taker/terrorists aggressors. I wasn't available, but the guys that played said that the poor cops took a serious beating, and wouldn't try it again. The regular paintballers were MUCH more aggressive and focused than the cops, who simply hadn't had that kind of experience previously. Some of them began playing competetive paintball because of the experience, while others bad mouthed the paintball group as cheaters.

LRRPF and I have discussed this previously, but it comes down to being willing to keep going, period. Most cops have to work hard to develop that mentality in the face of fire, and its not natural to those who have not been soldiers previously, especially.


Exactly; train as you fight, fight as you train. Years ago, I arranged for my local LE training program to be held at a rural rifle club that let us drive our patrol-cars right out onto the range. It was best for the guys I was training because that's 95% of our shooting incidents - in and around patrol-cars. Anyway, things went great for a couple of years until one guy accidentally put a nice clean .40" hole through his passenger-door mirror (didn't notice it until the next day). The pencil-pushers then put the halt on my training and put us back on the centuries-old static firing-line paper-target routine. Instead of chalking up a rare $100 repair expense as an accident and the price of effective, possibly life-saving training .... they'd rather mandate training that was valuable only on paper. Gotta love office-dwellers ...

This is a sad testament to how most people, even LEOs, don't live in the real world.

[LRRPF52]

Variable, I'm 100% with you on cover vs. concealment. I remember playing OPFOR for 2nd Ranger Battalion in Panama in 1997. We had set-up jungle patrol lanes, where we made contact with them, and they would execute a react-to-contact battle drill, followed by squad attack, where they used fire and maneuver to close with and destroy the enemy (us). We started blank, and then set up E-type and Ivan targets where we had been for them to go live. We had been using these huge trees with the fanned out bases that look like walls you can hide in between, for "cover".

Nope. After going back to our positions to do another blank-fire for the next squad, there were holes passing through our "cover" like it wasn't even there, and this was from 5.56 weapons. It cut through layer after layer of very large, water-rich trees like they were paper. It was a very sobering lesson in cover vs. concealment for me, as I realized that had I been there, I would have been hit with projectiles that still had a lot of energy in them.

Same with cars & most walls. Bricks and boulders seem to be the only real cover I can think of off the top of my head.

[Schwag173]

Engine blocks and to a lesser degree undercarriage/tire rims. Unless they specifically add armor, car-doors are worthless. I will say that weird things can happen. Personal experience: On a live-fire ex many, many years ago, my LEO was training In-Service at our academy and running us through a canned exercise using an old junker patrol-car that had been towed out onto the range. During the shoot we were to engage targets with our pistol from the driver's seat then retrieve the AR15 from the trunk (yes, this is where it used to be carried back then). From the open trunk, using the rear quarter-panel for "cover" we were to engage a few more targets. Silly me, I was a little too hunkered down behind my cover and the muzzle wasn't clearing the top edge of the trunk rim. I put three rounds of M193 55-grain FMJ into the upper edge of that car body at a range of about 3 inches and they did not penetrate all the way through. They went in, but never came out. It had to have been how the sheet metal was folded just right at that spot.

[LRRPF52]

I can see that. The m193 has such a thin jacket, that an extreme oblique shot like that could likely cause jacket sheer early, especially at over 3000fps. When it hits perpendicular to auto surfaces, it often goes through all the way. When it hits people, it's ugly.

[bwaites]

Plus, some of those old cop cars were HEAVY steel compared to what they use now. From what I've read, .357 Mag was developed partly because cops complained that .38 wouldn't penetrate car doors.

I can hardly think of a car door today that it wouldn't penetrate!

[Schwag173]

Plus, some of those old cop cars were HEAVY steel compared to what they use now. From what I've read, .357 Mag was developed partly because cops complained that .38 wouldn't penetrate car doors.

I can hardly think of a car door today that it wouldn't penetrate!


Hey, hEY, HEY!! Jeez, how old do you think I AM? It was a 1997 Ford Crown Victoria that had been run to death on our drive-course.

[bwaites]

Hey, hEY, HEY!! Jeez, how old do you think I AM? It was a 1997 Ford Crown Victoria that had been run to death on our drive-course.

You're the one who said, "many, many years ago"!

[Schwag173]

I think it was a 1993 Ford in 1997 (same body-style). I'm training cadets as we speak that were born around the time I started with my agency. <heavy sigh and a shake of the head>

[Harvest123]

This sounds like painful fun.