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Schwag173
01-17-2012, 02:20 AM
I have bids for a new barrel from both Black Hole Weaponry and Lothar-Walther. The differences are that for $105 less, BHW uses 416R stainless steel, polygonal rifling and will black coat it for me. For $105 more, LW uses LW50 stainless steel, button rifling and won't black coat it. Both are saying 8 weeks for delivery.

While I lean towards Lothar-Walther, I'm interested to hear the opinions of those of you that are in the know.

Also, if it matters, BHW calls it .264 LBC and LW calls it 6.5 CSS.

bwaites
01-17-2012, 04:08 AM
Schwag,

Black Hole is here in Moses Lake, about 5 miles from my house. No one I know has played with one of their barrels in .264 LBC, though I've looked at a fairly big bunch of their barrels in .308 and .223, and at several rifles built with them. They looked great, but unfortunately, I haven't talked with anyone who has shot them for groups.

Looking at the National shooting scene, I can't find anyone who has used a polygonal barrel and won for the last 10 years at least. I am told that the popularity of polygonal has come and gone several times over the last 60 years or more, and there are some pistols that have done well with it. Accuracy rifles, though, have almost invariably been of traditional lands/grooves barrels.

I've been waiting for someone to take the leap and give them a try with the Grendel!

Tooreal
01-17-2012, 01:34 PM
264 LBC was Developed by Les Baer & is the same thing as the Grendel. Just a different name that companies can use to make the " barrels under but" dont have to pay the expensive lease and naming rights to use. Glock uses the Polygonal rifling and their guns & they shoot Great.. There is another pistol company that uses the rifling and it may be H & K ? Anyway I have 3 Black Hole Weaponry Barrels that are in the 264 LBC-AR platform Caliber & they shoot Great.. My 18" 1 in 9 twist Heavy Barrel is a Tack Driver!!! I have pictures here on my cell phone but I dont know how to post them on here? Anybody know how or do I have to put them on photo bucket first?

leopard6.5
01-17-2012, 03:04 PM
Tooreal: I hate to bring this up again but what "expensive lease and naming rights to use" are you referring to?

If you are claiming that Bill A. and AA had huge licensing fees for doing an official 6.5 Grendel product you need to do more research or talk to Bill A. directly instead of repeating things that aren't true.

According to my conversation with Bill A., there were no licensing fees charged and the only requirements were strickly quality control requirements so the products didn't reflect negatively on the Grendel.

Besides, if the 264 LBC was developed by Les Baer and is the same exact thing as the 6.5 Grendel, that would legally be trademark infringment.
My understanding of the 264 LBC from Les, is that there is a slight difference in the measurements from the 6.5 Grendel, enough to keep out of trademark problems but not exactly the same.

People can choose to use whichever they want but their choice should be based on the facts.

Lee

By the way, I own both Les Baer products and AA products so I don't have a bias to push one way or the other.

bwaites
01-17-2012, 04:43 PM
The Les Baer chamber is a .295 neck traditional chamber which will chamber most Lapua brass cased factory ammo with no issues, and was designed specifically to take advantage of the 123 Hornady AMAX. The Grendel chamber is a compound throated chamber designed specifically to shoot a large variety of different ammunition well. They are significantly different, while still chambering the same ammunition under most circumstances.

Lee is 100% correct on licensing fees. The issues with others using the Grendel name were always about business practices and quality control, not about licensing fees.

blackfoot
01-17-2012, 04:52 PM
Is polygonal the same thing that Shilen has called "Ratchet Rifling" for years?

bwaites
01-17-2012, 05:18 PM
Is polygonal the same thing that Shilen has called "Ratchet Rifling" for years?

Some consider "ratchet rifling" a variation on polygonal. Here's a pic I've had for quite a while that I admit I robbed from some other board. Unfortunately, there was no attribution there, either, so I'm not sure where it came from!

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4627/hgrbarrelsandriflingpro.jpg

There is a variation on polygonal rifling also. It can be either "male" or "female" depending on what part of the polygon engages the bullet.

OldCannon
01-17-2012, 06:08 PM
I'm really curious about the BHW barrels. Technically, there's nothing at all wrong with polygonal rifling, so if it were me, I'd get one (I probably will anyway, just to check it out :) )

bwaites
01-17-2012, 06:17 PM
264 LBC was Developed by Les Baer & is the same thing as the Grendel. Just a different name that companies can use to make the " barrels under but" dont have to pay the expensive lease and naming rights to use. Glock uses the Polygonal rifling and their guns & they shoot Great.. There is another pistol company that uses the rifling and it may be H & K ? Anyway I have 3 Black Hole Weaponry Barrels that are in the 264 LBC-AR platform Caliber & they shoot Great.. My 18" 1 in 9 twist Heavy Barrel is a Tack Driver!!! I have pictures here on my cell phone but I dont know how to post them on here? Anybody know how or do I have to put them on photo bucket first?

The most sure way is to use Imageshack or Photobucket to host. I know that quite a few members have isssues seeing pictures hosted at other sites, but those two seem to work for everyone. I'm excited to see the results of the polygonal barrels. They are widely used in pistols, but the rifle guys don't seem to have bought into the accuracy promises.

bwaites
01-17-2012, 06:20 PM
I'm really curious about the BHW barrels. Technically, there's nothing at all wrong with polygonal rifling, so if it were me, I'd get one (I probably will anyway, just to check it out :) )

Although it won't affect many Grendel shooters, polygonal rifling has been reported to "lead up" when shooting lead instead of jacketed bullets. Glock even says not to use lead bullets in their pistols.

Tooreal
01-17-2012, 06:44 PM
Hello Leopard & Bwaits,
I own a 6.5 Grendel & now also 3 of the 264 LBC-AR Rifles.. I had the Grendel and wanted to build another one, I called Liberty barrel Comoany and about 3 others wanting to buy another 6.5 Grendel barrel for a long range rifle. I was told the same thing by every company that i called, & that was the licensing agreement to use the 6.5 Grendel naming rights had gone up significantly and everyone had decided that it was just too much money.. That is exactly what was told to me by everyone that I contacted.. Alexander Arms was the only place that I could find one for sale. I mean no disrespect at all but thats what Iwas told when trying to find a new barrel.
As far as any difference in the 2 calibers, I have both of them & load ammo for 1 caliber and the rounds work Great in each Named AR, even the Factory ammo works great in either one and I've tried them all..
Eric

leopard6.5
01-17-2012, 07:31 PM
Eric: I never said Grendel ammo wouldn't work in both. All I said is for you to say the measurements of each are exactly the same is incorrect. There is a measurement difference in the neck of the Grendel( .300) and the LBC( .295). Granted .005 of an inch isn't much but it is a difference.
Someone who is brand new to the Grendel( and maybe new to shooting firearms) should be made aware of the difference and not be given the blanket statement that they are both the same.
They can then make an informed decision based on what is fact.

Bill A. has said on this forum and the old forum that there was never a monetary portion to the licensing agreement and that it was strickly a quality control issue.
I was told the same thing by Les, Steve Satern and several others, so who do we believe?
Once again, until someone can show me in writing where the licensing fees were, I choose to believe the man who owns the trademark.
You can believe who you choose to also, that's your choice but unless you have proof these fees were charged then what you heard is hearsay.
We can agree to disagree about who we believe but we shouldn't say things like they are gospel without proof.

I do also have some inside info that leans me the way I am answering your post but I would prefer to not post it in an open forum.
However, if you want to pm me I'll be happy to share it with you just for your own knowledge.

Sorry Bill and the OP, so now back to the regularly scheduled programming.

Lee

bwaites
01-17-2012, 07:58 PM
Tooreal,

I wasn't trying to pick on you. I know some of what has circulated as "truth" when it comes to licensing of the Grendel. We know that licensing fees were not an issue so far as costs. There were other issues that pertained to the license that were difficult for some of the licensees to reconcile within their business, but it wasn't a license fee that caused the problem. If it indeed was simply a fee issue, at least one of those companies would have posted it on one of the boards they frequent. They haven't.

There is a reason for that, it wasn't because of the fee.

There were never many companies actually licensed to build Grendel barrels. On the cut rifle side, there was only Satern, and Les Baer, I believe, if you count them as a barrel maker. On the button side, there is ER Shaw, who provided the barrels to AA, and Shilen who did the same. Also Liberty barrels, who provided them for Midway. Liberty/Satern are the same company, at least they have the same address and contact information. For a long range barrel, the only viable option was Satern, then, since no one else offered longer than 20" barrels.

Satern/Liberty and AA had some issues not related to a licensing fee, and Satern made the decision to drop the Grendel, prior to AA dropping the trademark.

All of that said, it did create a short time where cut rifled barrels were hard to come by, especially in lengths reasonable for long range shooters.

Schwag173
01-19-2012, 02:36 AM
I played it safe (I think) and went with the button-rifled Lothar-Walther in 6.5 CSS. Sounds like I'll have no difficulty shooting Grendel ammo in it. Will 6.5 Grendel reloading dies cause me any heartburn with the 6.5 CSS chamber dimensions? I opted for the .300" neck.

VASCAR2
01-19-2012, 05:15 PM
The reloading dies are the same for 6.5 Grendel, 264 LBC and 6.5 CSS.

OldCannon
01-19-2012, 07:02 PM
Although it won't affect many Grendel shooters, polygonal rifling has been reported to "lead up" when shooting lead instead of jacketed bullets. Glock even says not to use lead bullets in their pistols.

This is true to an extent. Depends on the softness of the lead, etc, but a polygonal barrel will definitely retain lead as it travels down the barrel. You can shoot lead bullets in a Glock, but a) you void your warranty and b) You will need to de-lead your barrel after about 300-500 rounds.

6BRshooter
01-28-2012, 07:40 PM
Schwag, what barrel length did you order and what timeframe were you given for delivery? I ordered one 1-2-12, it showed instock on their website, and I am still waiting on it. Vascar2 where are you located at? I am out of Albion,Il (SE Il)

VASCAR2
01-29-2012, 02:54 AM
We're neighbors since I live near Allendale, I work part time in Albion.

Crushed
01-30-2012, 01:27 AM
I have been looking for a barrel too, Schwag and I seem to be running in tamdem. I hope tooreal can get his pictutes posted. Polygonal rifiling looks like it should work fine but since the benchies aren't using it with their 6mm ppc ' I'm very reluctant. BUT and it's a big BUT, they have a decient price and AVAILABILITY.

Schwag173
01-30-2012, 01:42 AM
6BRshooter & Crushed;

I traded e-mails with Woody of Lothar-Walther (lotharwalther@mindspring.com) and between the 2 of us we settled on these barrel specs:

* 18" LW50 stainless barrel.
* 6.5 CSS (what LW calls the Grendel)
* AR medium contour.
* Button-rifling, 1-in-8" rifling twist.
* .300" neck.
* .750" diameter at gas-block.
* Gas port drilled for mid-length tube.
* Barrel fluted in front and behind gas-block for weight reduction.
* 5/8"-24 muzzle threads, muzzle match.
* AR barrel extension & bolt.

Woody was great to deal with and told me it would be $580 and a 6-8 week delivery. I fired off my personal-check about 2 weeks ago ...

Crushed: If you go with the polygonal rifling let's compare notes regarding the results. I was very tempted to go that route but my cold feet compelled me to 'play it safe' with LW. I suspect the BHW barrel is perfectly fine.

LRRPF52
01-30-2012, 04:11 AM
$580 is the price I would pay for a cut-rifled, select match, no more than .001" deviation from chamber to muzzle, heavily-lapped, fluted barrel/bolt combo. I would pay no more than $400 for a button-rifled select match barrel in the same configuration.

Tooreal
01-30-2012, 04:15 PM
Crushed, I am going to try and add a link to pictures of 1 of the rifles that i built with a Black Hole Weaponry barrel. There are also pictures of 2 targets from where I shot the rifle at sunset, it was almost dark but I wanted to see how 20 rounds of Wolf Gold bullets would shoot compared to Hornady AMax bullets at 100 yards. There are 20 shots on each target and I was adjusting the scope to the best of my ability given the fact that it was almost dark & I really could not see the targets & where I was hitting well enough to adjust the scope. So minimal adjustments were made and I was really surprised at the grouping of the Wolf bullets. I have better pictures of the rifle and targets with different custom hand loads on my laptop, but it has been messing up and basically out to lunch for the last 2 weeks or more.
Lets try 1 at a time just like LRRPF52 suggested, thank you buddy. :D

http://<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed816.photobucket.com%2Falb ums%2Fzz86%2Ftoorealforthis%2F264%2520LBC-AR%2520sunset%2520targets%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.pbsrc.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s816.photobucket.com/albums/zz86/toorealforthis/264%20LBC-AR%20sunset%20targets/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.pbsrc.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div>

Crushed
01-31-2012, 06:13 AM
Schwag, I have cold feet about polygonal too. I'm going to be safe and order a 24" from AA for $320? (sumpthin like that) Your barrel sounds better than AA but on fixed income now so strechin my Chiniese Yen as far as it can go. I (and everyone else) would like to hear from you when you get it. Stay Safe Thanks.

samalama76
01-31-2012, 01:26 PM
This is one of those situations where you may have to use your "gut feeling" to make this purchase. I personally feel that the amount of people using polygonal rifled barrels is very small compared to all the other more traditionally rifled barrels people are using, so you are not going to find a ton of people who have actual first hand knowledge. As far as BHW barrels are concerned, the science is there and you will find that most everyone who owns a BHW barrel has nothing but good things to say about them accuracy wise, but ultimately it is going to come down to 2 things, Faith and Trust. Faith that the science and data behind polygonal rifling is correct, and will work for your purposes, and trust, in the fact that no matter which barrel you end up buying, is the right one for you. Best of luck and don't forget to have fun with this whole process!!

6BRshooter
01-31-2012, 09:14 PM
Accuracy int. uses only LW barels for their stupidly accurate rifles. As
do many Olympian shooters .

LRRPF52
02-01-2012, 12:08 AM
Crushed, I am going to try and add a link to pictures of 1 of the rifles that i built with a Black Hole Weaponry barrel. There are also pictures of 2 targets from where I shot the rifle at sunset, it was almost dark but I wanted to see how 20 rounds of Wolf Gold bullets would shoot compared to Hornady AMax bullets at 100 yards. There are 20 shots on each target and I was adjusting the scope to the best of my ability given the fact that it was almost dark & I really could not see the targets & where I was hitting well enough to adjust the scope. So minimal adjustments were made and I was really surprised at the grouping of the Wolf bullets :D . I have better pictures of the rifle and targets with different custom hand loads on my laptop, but it has been messing up and basically out to lunch for the last 2 weeks or more.:confused:
[URL="http://s816.photobucket.com/albums/zz86/toorealforthis/26"]

Or this, [URL="http://s816.photobucket.com/albums/zz86/toorealforthis/264%20LBC-AR%20sunset%20targets]

I hope this link works...
Eric

I can't get these links to work. If you edit your post, you can direct link by using the picture icon in the tool bar. Go to photobucket, go down from the picture you want to link, and a direct link option box will be there. Click that for a copy, then paste it into the picture icon option box in the message. It's pretty easy.

Schwag173
02-01-2012, 11:24 AM
Accuracy int. uses only LW barels for their stupidly accurate rifles. As
do many Olympian shooters .

So does Larue Tactical, at least for their Stealth uppers anyway. The 16" barreled Stealth I have averages 0.4" groups with my 77gr reloads. This is why I felt a little 'safer' with LW. If this new Grendel barrel disappoints me I'll be sure to let you all know.

6BRshooter
02-01-2012, 02:20 PM
I have a 22" LW inbound in the next couple weeks also in 6.5 g. I have a 243 fast twist savage prefit from LW that aves 1/4 moa out to 500 yds

kvwpwr
02-04-2012, 08:03 PM
I have bids for a new barrel from both Black Hole Weaponry and Lothar-Walther. The differences are that for $105 less, BHW uses 416R stainless steel, polygonal rifling and will black coat it for me. For $105 more, LW uses LW50 stainless steel, button rifling and won't black coat it. Both are saying 8 weeks for delivery.

While I lean towards Lothar-Walther, I'm interested to hear the opinions of those of you that are in the know.

Also, if it matters, BHW calls it .264 LBC and LW calls it 6.5 CSS.

Actually, LW and BHW both use button rifling and both use polygonal rifling. Button rifling is the method used to produce the rifling. Polygonal is the shape of the rifling.

The biggest difference is BHW uses a 3 groove polygonal rifling and LW uses a 5 groove(I think its five).

I have a LW on my 10/22 and its a tack driver. I'll be ordering a LW for my 6.5 shortly.

Tooreal
02-05-2012, 12:28 AM
Kvwpwr, I hope this helps, and you may be able to get a barrel even quicker from these company that bought into their business. Here's the link to one of the companies & some barrels;
http://www.tacticalammunition.com/Rifle-Length-Barrels_c95.htm

The other place is High Mountain Hunting Supply located in Moses Lake and Wenatchee.
But their website is under construction..

:cool:

LRRPF52
02-05-2012, 04:40 AM
When I was doing accuracy testing for a certain precision rifle manufacturer, I had a chance to compare LW and Krieger barrels on a daily basis, 3 days per week, 0900-1700. LW can handle a much higher volume than Krieger can, but the Krieger barrels shot better than the LW's. For the price, I would pay for the Krieger. If someone is wanting a polygonal barrel, it seems hard to beat the price of the Black Hole Weaponry barrels. I've seen some LW barrels that would shoot a ragged 4-shot group in the 1/4 MOA region, and then have a flier way out of the cluster for some reason. I heard the same complaint from the Bench Rest crowd with certain calibers like 6mm and 6.5mm, and the one of the ones I saw that did that was a 6mm pipe.

In .338 LM, I could get them to shoot .5 MOA after a few break-in groups, where they would start out at 3 MOA for the first 1-3 groups, then settle into a super tight group. It's just interesting to see some of these things happen with barrels from different makers, since the Krieger barrels would often print a 1/2 MOA group right from the start. This was shooting from a rifle rest, with Lapua factory ammo by the case. Any barrel that didn't shoot got rejected, re-inspected, and either sent back or test-shot by another shooter after being dropped into another rifle chassis.

I am interested to see how the BHW barrels print in the real world.

Tooreal
02-05-2012, 08:00 AM
886887888884889885

LRRPF52, Man you sure had a Dream job shooting rifles and testing them all day, and I'm sure it helped your shooting abilities too... I have some pictures of my BHW rifle that I built and the groups were at 100 yards. I loaded these with my old Dillon RL550B that I purchased back around 1990:eek: I was using New Lapua Brass, CCI 450 Magnum Small Rifle Primers, Nosler 120 Grain Ballistic Tips and Hodgdon BL-C-(2) powder and this one I'll be using a lot :cool:.
I finally got the other link to work, thanks to you LRRPF52. :-)

LRRPF52
02-05-2012, 11:34 PM
Sweet pics. That is a nice blaster for sure, and it shoots! How many rounds in that group? Looks like 3, and since you measured extreme edge-to-edge, you have a .6" - .264" group = .336" or 1/3 MOA, which is great.

I had done a lot of grouping exercises under the tutelage of SOTIC instructors from 1st SFG, where they had us pull off our M3A's and use the Palma disc sights on our M24's at 400yds, until we could at least shoot a 1.5 MOA or better group at that range, IIRC. The basics of rifle marksmanship have always been something I am chasing and re-evaluating year-to-year, and I was refreshed to be exposed to LR1955's approach to it from the Sport's Psychology and SOTIC perspectives working together.

Anyway, I need to order a BHW 18" for the next Grendel build, since that is the barrel length I wanted originally anyway.

Tooreal
02-10-2012, 03:26 PM
LRRPF52,

Thank you for the complement on my rifle build, I sure do like it and it does what I need it to do ;-)
That is a 3 shot group, 2 on the left (almost through the same hole)and 1 shot to the right. I was shooting some new loads wanting to find the best one with this bullet and powder, and I found the one that I'll be using for this rifle.. I use to love to shoot my AR's with open sights at 300 yards, we would shoot at Milk Jugs filled with water, pumpkins and targets. It was really amazing how well we could do with open sights and it sue was fun too. Now we no longer have access to that property (it's been developed) so now I am limited to the Gun Range at a Wildlife Management Area, and it only goes out to 100 yards but it's better than nothing..
I have 2 more uppers that I am going to build, but I had surgery on my right hand 2 weeks ago to repair a torn ligament in my finger. They put a pin in my finger, opened up my finger & repaired the ligament, then put my hand in a hard cast to keep me from moving my Middle, Ring & little finger.. The cast covers most of my hand & goes almost to my elbow, so I won't be building my uppers anytime in the next 2 months, Grrrrrrr. I had just got a really nice 24" SS Fluted Bull Barrel by Saber Defense in 6.5 Grendel to build, but it's now on hold.. So is Most of my typing and internet use because of the cast..
Have a Great day & I'll be back on the forum soon.

Retooferab
02-11-2012, 12:31 PM
I built my 6.5 with a BHW 18" barrel threaded and shooting it through my ThunderBeast 30P-1 suppressor and I'm getting under .6 groups with 85, 100, and 120 grain sierras. I'm waiting to get some 123 Amaxes to try but I'm confident they will shoot well in it. The BHW wasn't my first choice on barrels but I took a risk on them as they were on sale for $160 shipped so I bought three of em figuring if I didn't like them I would still be able to get my money back. If the other two work as well as the first one I'll be more than satisfied with them.

Tooreal
02-12-2012, 04:46 PM
Retooferab,
You seem to be getting exellant accuracy from your BHW barrel too & I am really happy to hear that because I have a 300 Blackout barrel just like yours headed my way from Black Hole Weaponry. I plan on shooting it suppressed too, so Im really Happy to know it'll be a tack driver.. ;-)

Retooferab
02-13-2012, 02:52 AM
Don't want to steal this thread but I've got 300 also. It's a 10.5" barrel mine is a Fireball though. Pm me and we can discuss these or start a new thread.

LRRPF52
02-14-2012, 01:19 AM
LRRPF52,

Thank you for the complement on my rifle build, I sure do like it and it does what I need it to do ;-)
That is a 3 shot group, 2 on the left (almost through the same hole)and 1 shot to the right. I was shooting some new loads wanting to find the best one with this bullet and powder, and I found the one that I'll be using for this rifle.. I use to love to shoot my AR's with open sights at 300 yards, we would shoot at Milk Jugs filled with water, pumpkins and targets. It was really amazing how well we could do with open sights and it sue was fun too. Now we no longer have access to that property (it's been developed) so now I am limited to the Gun Range at a Wildlife Management Area, and it only goes out to 100 yards but it's better than nothing..
I have 2 more uppers that I am going to build, but I had surgery on my right hand 2 weeks ago to repair a torn ligament in my finger. They put a pin in my finger, opened up my finger & repaired the ligament, then put my hand in a hard cast to keep me from moving my Middle, Ring & little finger.. The cast covers most of my hand & goes almost to my elbow, so I won't be building my uppers anytime in the next 2 months, Grrrrrrr. I had just got a really nice 24" SS Fluted Bull Barrel by Saber Defense in 6.5 Grendel to build, but it's now on hold.. So is Most of my typing and internet use because of the cast..
Have a Great day & I'll be back on the forum soon.

I'm spoiled where I live now, since there are miles of desert/mountainous environment to shoot in, with mother nature supplied man-sized rocks made of granite. You get immediate target feedback when you hit rocks, even at distance. I was shooting my wife's AR for fun this past weekend after teaching a CCW/Fighting with Handguns course, and even at 375yds with M193 55gr FMJ's, the dust was kicking up off rocks into the air so that anyone could readily see where you were hitting.

Sorry to hear about your hand. Get well soon. Eat well, and maybe look into some helpful supplements like Glucosamine Condroitin, Joint Formula (no, not that Tennessee whacky tobacky), and hydration with pure water. Eating Jello will help with bones and connective tissue healing, as it's made of animal cartilage.

grin&dull
05-16-2012, 06:05 PM
1st let me clarify Iím still in the build process but I would like to put in my 2 cents on at least part of this subject. I ordered a Black Hole Weaponry 18Ē .264 lbc barrel from one of their distributors I got a BHW 16Ē 5.56 barrel oops. Returned it and got a BHW mystery barrel next unmarked or stamped. Something just didnít seem right so I emailed and called Andy at BHW between the 2 of us we donít know what I have but are pretty sure itís a BHW barrel of some kind and caliber but not .264 lbc.
OK hereís the good part: he said send him the barrel and the bolt and heíll send me a BHW 18Ē .264 lbc barrel and bolt that we know are matched. Thatís above and beyond customer service from Black Hole Weaponry to take care of the customer the distributor screws up.
From all the reading and looking at groups I donít know or care if their barrels shoot the absolute tightest groups at 600 meters (not a big issue in my world) Iíd recommend them just on giving a crap about the people who buy their product.
Plus I want it noted I didnít say anything about a company with ďSurplusĒ at the start of their name but I would think they would be hiring in the shipping department soon.