Black Hole Weaponry or Lothar-Walther?

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  • Black Hole Weaponry or Lothar-Walther?

    I have bids for a new barrel from both Black Hole Weaponry and Lothar-Walther. The differences are that for $105 less, BHW uses 416R stainless steel, polygonal rifling and will black coat it for me. For $105 more, LW uses LW50 stainless steel, button rifling and won't black coat it. Both are saying 8 weeks for delivery.

    While I lean towards Lothar-Walther, I'm interested to hear the opinions of those of you that are in the know.

    Also, if it matters, BHW calls it .264 LBC and LW calls it 6.5 CSS.
  • bwaites
    Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 4445

    #2
    Schwag,

    Black Hole is here in Moses Lake, about 5 miles from my house. No one I know has played with one of their barrels in .264 LBC, though I've looked at a fairly big bunch of their barrels in .308 and .223, and at several rifles built with them. They looked great, but unfortunately, I haven't talked with anyone who has shot them for groups.

    Looking at the National shooting scene, I can't find anyone who has used a polygonal barrel and won for the last 10 years at least. I am told that the popularity of polygonal has come and gone several times over the last 60 years or more, and there are some pistols that have done well with it. Accuracy rifles, though, have almost invariably been of traditional lands/grooves barrels.

    I've been waiting for someone to take the leap and give them a try with the Grendel!

    Comment


    • #3
      264 LBC was Developed by Les Baer & is the same thing as the Grendel. Just a different name that companies can use to make the " barrels under but" dont have to pay the expensive lease and naming rights to use. Glock uses the Polygonal rifling and their guns & they shoot Great.. There is another pistol company that uses the rifling and it may be H & K ? Anyway I have 3 Black Hole Weaponry Barrels that are in the 264 LBC-AR platform Caliber & they shoot Great.. My 18" 1 in 9 twist Heavy Barrel is a Tack Driver!!! I have pictures here on my cell phone but I dont know how to post them on here? Anybody know how or do I have to put them on photo bucket first?

      Comment

      • leopard6.5

        #4
        Tooreal: I hate to bring this up again but what "expensive lease and naming rights to use" are you referring to?

        If you are claiming that Bill A. and AA had huge licensing fees for doing an official 6.5 Grendel product you need to do more research or talk to Bill A. directly instead of repeating things that aren't true.

        According to my conversation with Bill A., there were no licensing fees charged and the only requirements were strickly quality control requirements so the products didn't reflect negatively on the Grendel.

        Besides, if the 264 LBC was developed by Les Baer and is the same exact thing as the 6.5 Grendel, that would legally be trademark infringment.
        My understanding of the 264 LBC from Les, is that there is a slight difference in the measurements from the 6.5 Grendel, enough to keep out of trademark problems but not exactly the same.

        People can choose to use whichever they want but their choice should be based on the facts.

        Lee

        By the way, I own both Les Baer products and AA products so I don't have a bias to push one way or the other.

        Comment

        • bwaites
          Moderator
          • Mar 2011
          • 4445

          #5
          The Les Baer chamber is a .295 neck traditional chamber which will chamber most Lapua brass cased factory ammo with no issues, and was designed specifically to take advantage of the 123 Hornady AMAX. The Grendel chamber is a compound throated chamber designed specifically to shoot a large variety of different ammunition well. They are significantly different, while still chambering the same ammunition under most circumstances.

          Lee is 100% correct on licensing fees. The issues with others using the Grendel name were always about business practices and quality control, not about licensing fees.

          Comment


          • #6
            Is polygonal the same thing that Shilen has called "Ratchet Rifling" for years?

            Comment

            • bwaites
              Moderator
              • Mar 2011
              • 4445

              #7
              Originally posted by blackfoot View Post
              Is polygonal the same thing that Shilen has called "Ratchet Rifling" for years?
              Some consider "ratchet rifling" a variation on polygonal. Here's a pic I've had for quite a while that I admit I robbed from some other board. Unfortunately, there was no attribution there, either, so I'm not sure where it came from!



              There is a variation on polygonal rifling also. It can be either "male" or "female" depending on what part of the polygon engages the bullet.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm really curious about the BHW barrels. Technically, there's nothing at all wrong with polygonal rifling, so if it were me, I'd get one (I probably will anyway, just to check it out )

                Comment

                • bwaites
                  Moderator
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 4445

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Tooreal View Post
                  264 LBC was Developed by Les Baer & is the same thing as the Grendel. Just a different name that companies can use to make the " barrels under but" dont have to pay the expensive lease and naming rights to use. Glock uses the Polygonal rifling and their guns & they shoot Great.. There is another pistol company that uses the rifling and it may be H & K ? Anyway I have 3 Black Hole Weaponry Barrels that are in the 264 LBC-AR platform Caliber & they shoot Great.. My 18" 1 in 9 twist Heavy Barrel is a Tack Driver!!! I have pictures here on my cell phone but I dont know how to post them on here? Anybody know how or do I have to put them on photo bucket first?
                  The most sure way is to use Imageshack or Photobucket to host. I know that quite a few members have isssues seeing pictures hosted at other sites, but those two seem to work for everyone. I'm excited to see the results of the polygonal barrels. They are widely used in pistols, but the rifle guys don't seem to have bought into the accuracy promises.

                  Comment

                  • bwaites
                    Moderator
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 4445

                    #10
                    Originally posted by OldCannon View Post
                    I'm really curious about the BHW barrels. Technically, there's nothing at all wrong with polygonal rifling, so if it were me, I'd get one (I probably will anyway, just to check it out )
                    Although it won't affect many Grendel shooters, polygonal rifling has been reported to "lead up" when shooting lead instead of jacketed bullets. Glock even says not to use lead bullets in their pistols.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hello Leopard & Bwaits,
                      I own a 6.5 Grendel & now also 3 of the 264 LBC-AR Rifles.. I had the Grendel and wanted to build another one, I called Liberty barrel Comoany and about 3 others wanting to buy another 6.5 Grendel barrel for a long range rifle. I was told the same thing by every company that i called, & that was the licensing agreement to use the 6.5 Grendel naming rights had gone up significantly and everyone had decided that it was just too much money.. That is exactly what was told to me by everyone that I contacted.. Alexander Arms was the only place that I could find one for sale. I mean no disrespect at all but thats what Iwas told when trying to find a new barrel.
                      As far as any difference in the 2 calibers, I have both of them & load ammo for 1 caliber and the rounds work Great in each Named AR, even the Factory ammo works great in either one and I've tried them all..
                      Eric

                      Comment

                      • leopard6.5

                        #12
                        Eric: I never said Grendel ammo wouldn't work in both. All I said is for you to say the measurements of each are exactly the same is incorrect. There is a measurement difference in the neck of the Grendel( .300) and the LBC( .295). Granted .005 of an inch isn't much but it is a difference.
                        Someone who is brand new to the Grendel( and maybe new to shooting firearms) should be made aware of the difference and not be given the blanket statement that they are both the same.
                        They can then make an informed decision based on what is fact.

                        Bill A. has said on this forum and the old forum that there was never a monetary portion to the licensing agreement and that it was strickly a quality control issue.
                        I was told the same thing by Les, Steve Satern and several others, so who do we believe?
                        Once again, until someone can show me in writing where the licensing fees were, I choose to believe the man who owns the trademark.
                        You can believe who you choose to also, that's your choice but unless you have proof these fees were charged then what you heard is hearsay.
                        We can agree to disagree about who we believe but we shouldn't say things like they are gospel without proof.

                        I do also have some inside info that leans me the way I am answering your post but I would prefer to not post it in an open forum.
                        However, if you want to pm me I'll be happy to share it with you just for your own knowledge.

                        Sorry Bill and the OP, so now back to the regularly scheduled programming.

                        Lee

                        Comment

                        • bwaites
                          Moderator
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 4445

                          #13
                          Tooreal,

                          I wasn't trying to pick on you. I know some of what has circulated as "truth" when it comes to licensing of the Grendel. We know that licensing fees were not an issue so far as costs. There were other issues that pertained to the license that were difficult for some of the licensees to reconcile within their business, but it wasn't a license fee that caused the problem. If it indeed was simply a fee issue, at least one of those companies would have posted it on one of the boards they frequent. They haven't.

                          There is a reason for that, it wasn't because of the fee.

                          There were never many companies actually licensed to build Grendel barrels. On the cut rifle side, there was only Satern, and Les Baer, I believe, if you count them as a barrel maker. On the button side, there is ER Shaw, who provided the barrels to AA, and Shilen who did the same. Also Liberty barrels, who provided them for Midway. Liberty/Satern are the same company, at least they have the same address and contact information. For a long range barrel, the only viable option was Satern, then, since no one else offered longer than 20" barrels.

                          Satern/Liberty and AA had some issues not related to a licensing fee, and Satern made the decision to drop the Grendel, prior to AA dropping the trademark.

                          All of that said, it did create a short time where cut rifled barrels were hard to come by, especially in lengths reasonable for long range shooters.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I played it safe (I think) and went with the button-rifled Lothar-Walther in 6.5 CSS. Sounds like I'll have no difficulty shooting Grendel ammo in it. Will 6.5 Grendel reloading dies cause me any heartburn with the 6.5 CSS chamber dimensions? I opted for the .300" neck.

                            Comment

                            • VASCAR2
                              Chieftain
                              • Mar 2011
                              • 6219

                              #15
                              The reloading dies are the same for 6.5 Grendel, 264 LBC and 6.5 CSS.

                              Comment

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