Iron Sights for AR's

[LR1955]

Guys:
Since a-lot of guys want to use irons in some capacity, it may be of value to everyone to see what types of irons guys use specifically on an AR frame, for what purpose, and how well those particular irons have worked. Let me throw this out and see what you guys are using and why. No need to comment on all of them.

If you were to buy irons for hunting medium game to 300, what would they be and why?

If you were to buy irons for LEA, Military or Action Shooting purposes, what would they be and why?

If you were to buy irons to improve your own marksmanship ability when firing from unsupported positions (Standing, Kneeling, Prone, Seated), what would they be and why?

What, are your lessons learned from buying, mounting / dismounting, and using iron sights on your AR’s?

LR1955

[LRS_Ranger]

I'm a big fan of the Troy flip up sights.. then again, those are the only ones that I have used. They have been flawless for me, and hold up to all my abuse. They fold flat enough for me to fit my Larue mounted 1-4 optic right on top. They are pretty much the same as the old military sights I used in basic training as well, so I have that familiarity.

[LR1955]

I'm a big fan of the Troy flip up sights.. then again, those are the only ones that I have used. They have been flawless for me, and hold up to all my abuse. They fold flat enough for me to fit my Larue mounted 1-4 optic right on top. They are pretty much the same as the old military sights I used in basic training as well, so I have that familiarity.

LRR:

Who made that flip up rear sight that was issued and flipped up on its own when the carbine would recoil? That one was a P.O.S. not only because it wouldn't lock down but its design was pretty lousy too.

LR1955

[warped]

I only have a few weapons with irons any more, the AK, the FAL, one AR15 with standard front and rear flip up BUIS.

I am going to buy one more pair of MI BUIS though for my 14.5" bbl 5.56mm, to go along with the Vortex Viper PST 1-4x scope.

[warped]

Gene I forgot who made it but I know there were several very angry calls made to Crane.

[LRS_Ranger]

LRR:

Who made that flip up rear sight that was issued and flipped up on its own when the carbine would recoil? That one was a P.O.S. not only because it wouldn't lock down but its design was pretty lousy too.

LR1955

I'm not sure... I had an issue backup iron, but I never had it fail.. didn't really ever use it after I zeroed it anyway though. It didn't fall apart even after a lot of abuse though. I probably have an extra one or 2 somewhere, I'll look and see who makes the thing...

[VASCAR2]

I have several Midwest industries flip up rear sights with the A-2 dual aperture. In use these sights are very durable and are used in the same manner as the A-2 rear except no elevation adjustment. These sights are good out to 300 yards. I also have one of the reduced size MI fold down rear sights which I sighted in for my 6.5 Grendel. I don't have room on the top rail with my scope mount but I carry the sight in my rifle case in the event something happens to my scope. I used the MI backup iron sight behind my E O tech on my duty rifle and my dedicated 22 AR training rifle. With the way my eye sight is depreciating I don't think I could see well enough in most light to use the iron sights past 300 yards.

[LR1955]

I'm not sure... I had an issue backup iron, but I never had it fail.. didn't really ever use it after I zeroed it anyway though. It didn't fall apart even after a lot of abuse though. I probably have an extra one or 2 somewhere, I'll look and see who makes the thing...

LRSR:

There were a couple of different style BUIS issued since the M-4 series came out but this one did exactly what Warped and I claimed. And it did it regularly and just about without fail. Never saw any of them fall apart aside from shearing one of the locking screws. And I haven't seen it happen with them as often for the last couple of years.

LR1955

[Rootshot]

I havea Matech sight on the rear and a MI gas block height HK style on the front. The Matech is elevation adjustable. I had no trouble hitting steel at 220 and 330 yards. Beyond that its a little sketchy.

--Rootshot

[BlueOvalBruin]

The best thing going right now for practical rifle in “Limited” division (Iron sighted rifle) is to use a 20-22” barrel and mount a JP front sight gas block (JPGS-2FS) just behind the comp to maximize the sight radius. The barrel OD out front needs to be .75” to mount it. It is clamp on (no set screws) and already has the .050” front sight width. Mate it with a DPMS fixed rear sight and zero at 300yds.

The lyman globe type sights cover too much of the target and aren’t as robust. There are too many things to snag on and too many screws to lose adjustment.

[tx4guns]

Buy once, cry once. Troy are the only ones I'd buy, and I will be pulling the trigger on some very soon.

[student28]

I have collapsable irons on my grendel made by Sabre Defense Industries. I have not used them yet. I mounted my acog before I sighted them in and now don't want to move the acog at this point - it is DEAD on. When I need to, I will get them where they need to be, but for now, they remain unused. In the Corps, I was deadly with the standard irons on the m16 (fixed). I was able to shoot a "possible" 10 for 10 in just under ten seconds from the 300m in the prone position. I always qualified expert before I reached the 500m line and was able to put the round in the face of the silhouette - even knocking out the spindles of the shot spotters. But what I really enjoyed doing was skipping the rounds off the very top of the burm - skimming it - so it threw dirt onto my buddies pulling in the pitts!! lol. I was already qualified expert by that point so it was ok for some extracurricular.

[warped]

Yeah the irons on the old M16A1 were pretty good, I am sure the old Vets like Gene recall beating the front post into the 12 o'clock and then continuing to shoot 39-40 out of 40 on ranges out to 350-400yds.

We were younger then and the eyes were much better.

I really want to get lasik

[bwaites]

I really want to get lasik

Best money I ever spent! I was 20/800 before Lasik, with terrible vision for 25+ years. Woke up the next day and had 20/13 vision.

I've aged, and now I'm at 20/20, but still way better than anything I would have imagined!

Bill

[LR1955]

Yeah the irons on the old M16A1 were pretty good, I am sure the old Vets like Gene recall beating the front post into the 12 o'clock and then continuing to shoot 39-40 out of 40 on ranges out to 350-400yds. We were younger then and the eyes were much better. I really want to get lasik

Randy / Guys:

Actually, the A-1 was more a pain than the A-2 because we needed a sight adjustment tool to adjust windage and the A-1 rear sight did not adjust elevation at all so you zeroed it and if your zero was OK the small aperture rear sight had a battle sight zero of about 350 meters. If you wanted to shoot farther, you had to hold over or adjust the front sight. Both of which are impractical unless you are on a KD range where you have the time and you are using a six foot square target frame of white paper with a nice black bullseye or silhouette centered in the middle of that white paper.

The A-2 rear sight solved the distance problem as it adjusts elevation but I still believe that the major design flaw with both the A-1 and A-2 were the need to adjust the front sight for elevation in order to zero. After a while the front sights become badly damaged and bent so when you adjust elevation you may also adjust windage. A major design flaw that could have been fixed with the A-2 but wasn't.

When I was issued an A-1, we qualified on a 300 meter Train Fire range. There wasn't any reason to qualify at farther distances due to doctrine, limitations of the A-1 and its ammunition, availability of ranges that would allow for longer distances with feedback, and historical precedent in terms of when the Infantryman would use his rifle. In fact, I do not believe the Army had any qual that went past 300 when I was using the A-1.

LR55

[warped]

IIRC Ft. Dix had 350yds

Also several other courses were used at Bragg, Benning and also while OCONUS. (if another unit was not hogging the range) sometimes we just joined them.

Those huge units really took up the time on the ranges.

Heck, there were times we needed to travel just to get on a range.

Yeah we used holdover but it worked damned well and really did help for when you needed to engage at distances past what the sights allowed.

I can still recall getting the very first XM16E2 in our unit, damn there was a lot of rifle envy.

I got the first M16A2 in our unit when they were being fielded as well, the sights were nice and the bbl was so much better.

I may not have always gotten dibbs on the newest gear, I did however always seem to get the newest or best condition rifles.

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

I'm using a MaTech rear and a MagPul BUS front with KNS sight post on my 5.56. I plan to replace the front later on.

[LRRPF52]

If you look at the original AR10 from Gene Stoner's design in 1955, it had an elevation wheel in the rear sight housing. This reappeared on the M16A2 about 30 years later. I actually prefer the Model 601/602 AR15 & M16 to the A1 and A2, but the A2 is set up to be a more AMU or Marine Marksmanship Unit rifle for the KD range than a fighting rifle, as long as the 3-round burst trigger is replaced.

I have seen what LR1955 is talking about when a slightly bent front sight post gets zeroed dead on for windage with the rear sight, but then needs a quarter or 3/4 turn in elevation, and the windage is now off.

The PRI flip-up sight solves this problem by providing a fully-hooded circular front sight, so the likelihood of it getting bent or damaged is reduced significantly.

LRRPF52

[Bill Alexander]

Building guns I have to cater for a number of shooters and budgets. I use both Midwest Industries and Troy folding sights. Both provide good sight picture but I prefer the hooded front sight as this seems to more naturally align especially at short ranges such as the shoot house. The Troy is certainly a superbly made unit.

Diverting to the reason for this post, I have recently been playing with the diamond head sights. These are very well made, similar to Troy in quality, but have a diffent aperture type, being a square set up onto its corner. Initially not intuative, this seems to work well and does not cause the eye disruption when shooting at a wide variety of target shapes, especially at speed.

I would urge anyone seriously examining the use of iron sights to look at this concept and use this forum to comment upon what they find.

Bill Alexander