30 MAJOR (as in major power factor)

I currently have my new cartridge up and running in an ar15 and in a bolt gun.
The cartridge is called "30 Major". Using my Pressure Trace system indicates pressures below 40,000 psi in a load that makes major power factor. So far there have been ZERO malfunctions and accuracy loads have shown excellent results. Recoil with a brake is comparable to an un-braked 223 caliber ar15! I have been biting my tounge for a while now about this as it has been in the works for some time but the paperwork is all with a patent lawyer and it is time to see if there is any real interest in an AR15 that makes major with reasonable pressures and reliability. I am very excited with the results I am seeing so far and look forward to your input. Thanks--Mike Ezell

Mike, is it based on the 6.5 Grendel case?

If it's based on the Grendel case, I'll move this thread to the Grendel Wildcats section. If it's based on some other case, I'll move this thread to General Discussion.

Let's keep this section on-topic with discussion focused on competition applications for the 6.5 Grendel cartridge. Thanks.

John

It is a Grendel based cartridge with competition being it's primary purpose.

Mike,

Sounds great! I'll be back in the US after the new year. If you would like some folks to test it out, I along with some fellow competitors and instructors would be happy to run it through the ringer.

The biggest obstacle in a major power factor rifle becoming super popular is stage design in USPSA/IPSC (the only place...so far...but that's for another topic) that recognizes a power factor. We've talked about it in other threads, but in Europe, e.g. it's pretty standard to see paper targets out at 100-400m. In the US we would just have a flasher out there. The obvious problem with a flasher is no advantage to shoot MPF. If we can beat this hurdle, and the ammo is affordable/reloadable and mags are as reliable as good quality "affordable" AR mags (Magpul, Brownells, etc.) then you'll have a winner.

Rich

I was thinking 7mm in the Grendel case could do well also - although probably not as low as 40K psi you have with the 30cal.

I currently have my new cartridge up and running in an ar15 and in a bolt gun.
The cartridge is called "30 Major". Using my Pressure Trace system indicates pressures below 40,000 psi in a load that makes major power factor. So far there have been ZERO malfunctions and accuracy loads have shown excellent results. Recoil with a brake is comparable to an un-braked 223 caliber ar15! I have been biting my tounge for a while now about this as it has been in the works for some time but the paperwork is all with a patent lawyer and it is time to see if there is any real interest in an AR15 that makes major with reasonable pressures and reliability. I am very excited with the results I am seeing so far and look forward to your input. Thanks--Mike Ezell

Mike:

Sounds to me like a 7.62X39 with a sharper shoulder. 6.5 Grendel opened up to .30 caliber.

What weight and design of bullet and at what velocities?

LR1055

In the MPF load that is currently working so well, I am using a 155 Sierra @ 2100 fps from a 16" barrel. Accuracy has been very good with low SD and ES.
The biggest difference between the 30 Major and a 7.62x39 is that the case taper on the x39 is not condusive to reliability in an ar15 platform. My primary concerns with this caliber were ..
1.)RELIABILITY
2.)RELIABILITY
3.)RELIABILITY
4.)Major power factor with good pressures
5.)Accuracy

You should see the steel plates fly when that 155 grain bullet hits em'.
Pressures have to be verified but I see no indications that the pressure is out of line with what my test equipment is registering.

Accuracy is better than my 30BR with less wind drift and less recoil in my bolt guns.

I am very excited as I feel ther is a place for this cartridge in the 3-gun market and possibly in BR as well. I will admit that while I thought it should be an accurate round, I have been very surprised just how accurate it is.
Mike

Mike,

Jackie Schmidt, local BR shooter and Mod over at benchrest.com has been shooting a 30PPC for a year and a half or so, and has been very happy with its performance. Of course, he is shooting 118g flat base Robinett bullets out of a 17 or 18 twist barrel - just like the 30BR shooters.

He reports it is right there with the 30BR in accuracy.

In the AR, the 30PPC would be the logical choice over the BR simply due to the boltface size.

In a bolt gun, at least one with a boltface that will work with both a PPC and BR case, however, I would still lean towards the 30BR just because the 6BR brass is so much cheaper than Grendel brass.

Hello WTR,
I have spoken with jackie about his 30ppc and from what I know the cartridge is doing what he wants it to do and well. the grendel case is .075" longer than the ppc and gives very near 30BR powder capacities.
The 6.5 brass from Alexander is 50.00/100 and the lapua 6br is more like 60.00/100(it's all going up so fast that I can't keep up with it all). the extra space along with ease of expanding good brass from 6.5 to 30 cal were factors in what base cartridge was used. Not to mention the fact that grendel has proven to be a reliable gun and good components are available that we know work in the 6.5. There are things that need to be modified when you go to 30 cal but nothing that has proven to be a problem so far to address.I have seen velocities that equal the 30Br from this cartridge with the lighter bullets with no pressure problems in a bolt gun. You have to admit that the ppc/grendel case design has proven to be very efficient and accurate. Arguably better than the BR case of which I am a fan of as well.
Thank you for your input. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel,just fill a need with a good and reliable cartridge.---Mike

Need pix! :D

John

Target on left measures 1.038" for 3 shots fired from a 30 Major AR15 16" bbl with 3x weaver scope @ 100yds. One hole is hard to see as it is in the vertical line above the center point. And yes there are 2 shots in the other hole!
Target on right is same load fired from 30 Major Benchrest gun with 24x scope @ 100 yds. It is also hard to see the three shot group as it in the horizontal line 1/2 inch to right of center measuring .140".

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/mwezell/30major013.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/mwezell/30major011.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/mwezell/30major006.jpg
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/mwezell/30major003.jpg

Nice, I like the close-ups of the cartridges. It does a body good to see shiny brass and clean copper bullets! ;)

Technical question: Did you keep the 30 degree shoulder?

John

The shoulder angle remains unchanged. Part of the beauty of this little round is that the components are available to make loading this round very simple once the dies are aquired. A person can go from grendel to 30 Major in a progressive press or single stage press without even adding a step to the process for expanding the necks. The loaded rounds are pretty and shiny aren't they? Ran a couple of 6.8 mags full through it today with no failures. Seemed to work as well as the grendel mags. The PRI was a little hard to load and lost 2 rounds of capacity probably because of the follower but the c products 6.8 mag worked great with twenty-six 30 Major rounds stuffed inside easily.
Even tried a Beowolf mag and it worked too!

In the MPF load that is currently working so well, I am using a 155 Sierra @ 2100 fps from a 16" barrel. Accuracy has been very good with low SD and ES. Mike

Mike:

A 155 SMK at 2100 fps?

Do you need an aiming circle and stakes to shoot at 400 yards?

Gene

Mike,

So reloading wise, are you just taking a 7.62 neck sizing only die and opening up the case mouth to open the bullet diameter and still retain the shoulder dimension or did you have "custom" dies made?

After that, I'm guessing it's a custom barrel (.30 cal bore) with the revamped shoulder and case mouth dimensions.

Seems sweet! A 155 is easy to get and at 3100 should scream. 1:10 or 1:12 would be a great twist for it too.

Rich

ETA: If there's any assistance that I can provide, I'll be back in the US after the New Year (hopefully for good). I'd love to come out to KY and try out a rifle in this caliber for use in 3-Gun!

Mike:

A 155 SMK at 2100 fps?

Do you need an aiming circle and stakes to shoot at 400 yards?

Gene

That load is is taylored to make major power factor with light recoil in an AR15. Few matches in USPSA or IPSC in the U.S. present shots that far.

The testing that I have done so far has been at 100 and 200 yds. Although, I did use the 30 Major BR gun in a 300 yard group match at 300 this weekend. I didn't do as well as I had hoped but it wasn't the fault of the round. The group was about 2-1/2 inches for 5 shots.( this was a br match where it normally takes a group size of under 1" to win it) 3 of the 5 were well under an inch and the other 2 were almost touching but not with the other 3. Another shooter there said that the wind switched and this would explain the group. I was hoping for good things as 200 yard groups have been very good and I wanted to stretch it out a little more. I will do more long range testing a little later. The load I was using is a tad faster from the bolt gun.

Mike,

So reloading wise, are you just taking a 7.62 neck sizing only die and opening up the case mouth to open the bullet diameter and still retain the shoulder dimension or did you have "custom" dies made?

After that, I'm guessing it's a custom barrel (.30 cal bore) with the revamped shoulder and case mouth dimensions.

Seems sweet! A 155 is easy to get and at 3100 should scream. 1:10 or 1:12 would be a great twist for it too.

Rich

ETA: If there's any assistance that I can provide, I'll be back in the US after the New Year (hopefully for good). I'd love to come out to KY and try out a rifle in this caliber for use in 3-Gun!

Currently using custom dies but 30 Major dies are forthcoming.
The MPF load I am using currently is at 2100 FPS with a 155 grain .308 diameter bullet.
The 30 Major will make it's 3-gun debut next month,most likely in Iron Man.
I'd be happy to have your input in this and would welcome you to come by and try it out.---Thanks, Mike

This is a very interesting development. I like using components I already have, like .308 bullets and such. Have you shot any 125gr loads yet? I have some 125gr Nosler Ballistic tips that I used to load for my .30-06 Competitor Corp pistol that would work nice I bet. Sold that, but not because I didn't like it, I just needed another gun! Anyways, I would be curious what velocities the 125gr would run at. I am running the 120grSMK's with IMR4320 in the Grendel and it groups super at 100-150yds, but velocity is only around 2200fps. I don't really care, as it is just a fun gun to shoot, but having a .308 bullet at or above that velocity that grouped well at sub-200yds it would be a nice carbine setup.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread...

I 've not tried the nosler bt's but it should be easy to get those velocities with the right powder. The bigger bore of the 30 Major makes it quite forgiving. I'll try to get some more info up later.

mwezell, I am very interested in this cartridge of yours, can you tell me, have you loaded anything approaching 50,000 psi and if so, what velocities did you get ?

If you haven't, could you give me your best guess what velocity you think your 155's could hit from your 16" barrel at 50,000 psi ?

I reckon you could hit 2400 fps, even from your 16 incher, but I have a tendency to over estimate these things.

Thanks in advance :)

mwezell, I am very interested in this cartridge of yours, can you tell me, have you loaded anything approaching 50,000 psi and if so, what velocities did you get ?

If you haven't, could you give me your best guess what velocity you think your 155's could hit from your 16" barrel at 50,000 psi ?

I reckon you could hit 2400 fps, even from your 16 incher, but I have a tendency to over estimate these things.

Thanks in advance :)


Hello bigjohn! I think that 2400fps with a 155 gr bullet is pushing it a bit from a 16 in bbl AR15.I can tell you that I have been at around 2600 in a bolt gun and had no promlems. It seems that about 2100fps is the best way to get MPF. Send me a PM and Iwil give you my Ph # and can dicuss pressures a little deeper with you. The 30 caliber bullet does make it quite forgiving but with the faster powders that work best, one can get carried away pretty fast---Mike

Just was sitting at my reload bench thinking about what to play with and got the idea to neck up a WOLF 6.5G piece of brass with my 30-06 die just for shits and giggles. Figured the pressures would be good out of an AR, was just looking at the 300Whisper yesterday for subsonic and supersonic both. I just knew someone on here had to have done it for real, then I find this thread which I had already responded to with interest a while back!! DUH!! Still interested of course, so any updates??

Another spam bump - Grendelizor is slacking off :D :D

Doesn't the other side already have one of these?

Jackie Schmidt, local BR shooter and Mod over at benchrest.com has been shooting a 30PPC for a year and a half or so, and has been very happy with its performance. Of course, he is shooting 118g flat base Robinett bullets...
At what muzzle velocity?

How does powder capacity of 30PPC and 30Major compare to 30Kurz? To .308x1.5" Barnes?

Any sources for .308x1.5" or 30 Kurz brass? I'd like to get one or two empty cases to make dummy rounds.

Can anybody post representative 30Kurz and/or .308x1.5" muzzle velocities for bullets circa 125 grains?

At what muzzle velocity?

How does powder capacity of 30PPC and 30Major compare to 30Kurz? To .308x1.5" Barnes?

Any sources for .308x1.5" or 30 Kurz brass? I'd like to get one or two empty cases to make dummy rounds.

Can anybody post representative 30Kurz and/or .308x1.5" muzzle velocities for bullets circa 125 grains?


Stanc, using Aussie IMR4227 he's shooting the BIB 112's around 2950 fps and the Euber 118's about 2900 fps.

Not sure if you will find a current source for either brass case. If my forming dies had 20 degree shoulder bushings I would make you a few .308 x1.5's.

Example, why fool with the .trouble of making the .308x1.5 when one can just neck up 6BR brass to 30BR. The only real difference is that the "1.5" has a 20 degree shoulder and is about .050 shorter as it was the basis for the Remington BR cases which originally were around 1.510 in length.

I have data which has the .308 Barnes at 2680 fps using H4198.

30BR (http://www.6mmbr.com/30BR.html)

Mike

Not sure if you will find a current source for either brass case. If my forming dies had 20 degree shoulder bushings I would make you a few .308 x1.5's.
Mike, are such bushings readily available? If so, any idea of cost?
...why fool with the trouble of making the .308x1.5 when one can just neck up 6BR brass to 30BR. The only real difference is that the "1.5" has a 20 degree shoulder and is about .050 shorter...
If it were for shooting, I would very much concur. However, I'm contemplating a magazine article in which I'd like to show the .308 Barnes, not 30BR.

Stan

Mike, are such bushings readily available? If so, any idea of cost?

If it were for shooting, I would very much concur. However, I'm contemplating a magazine article in which I'd like to show the .308 Barnes, not 30BR.

Stan


I've seen it referred as the .308x1.5 and .308x1.5 Barnes. First I would get a reamer print to verify.

For the bushings here's what I use, minus the internal spacer and two 2-3 additional bushings. I have a machinist make these double ended bushings to my specs. If the outer sleeve looks familar it is the body of a Lee collet die.

The price varies according to his steel current prices but IIRC, 4 bushing set, spacer and body sleeve is around $150, additional bushings are $25 a piece. The caveat is that your shoulder angle is course fixed, these are cut at 30 degrees. Since, the 308 Barnes has a 20 degree shoulder angle you will still need a .308 x 1.5 FL die(RCBS 56330). Actually, you need a FL die regardless.

For about $110 shipped Hornady makes an excellent custom die,in fact they have the best internal finish of any die maker period. However, lead times have increased remarkly from the 4-5 weeks of old. I ordered a custom FL die the second week of August with an expected 10-12 week lead time and I still haven't seen it yet, as of 8/23 they were 4000 factory die sets behind.

Now, $300 might a bit much to spend for a magazine article. However, just off the top of my head here's a brainstorming idea. Get yourself a cheap .308 FL die, take it to a machine shop and have them chuck it up in a lathe and take .490-.510 off the base. Reloading dies are carbide heat treated so they will need to use a carbide insert to cut it down. Next get you some 7mmBR brass and then expand the necks to .30 cal. Then, I think if you run this brass into your modified .308 die, depending upon how it's adjusted, it will set the shoulder back slightly and change the shoulder angle from 30 to 20 degrees.

This should get you close.


Also, here's a link to another style (single ended bushing) of case forming die set. I have a very similar set to these which were made by the late BR shooter/machinist Skip Otto but I rarely use them now because the double ended ones are less labor intensive and are a pleasure to use.

http://www.leesixinc.com/accessories1.html


Mike

Thanks, Mike. I didn't expect so much info. Shortening a .308 die sounds like the most practical option.

Only problem I see with using the 7mmBR brass is I noticed mention of the "donut" which needs to be neck turned out, maybe it is ok to leave though, not sure. It sounded like the 6mmBR brass was a better option. I love reading about different wildcats and their history! It is fascinating...

Only problem I see with using the 7mmBR brass is I noticed mention of the "donut" which needs to be neck turned out, maybe it is ok to leave though, not sure. It sounded like the 6mmBR brass was a better option. I love reading about different wildcats and their history! It is fascinating...


Curly, if you are going from 6mm to .30 cal I don't think 6BR brass is a better option concerning forming. I can tell you from experience that going from 6BR to 30BR leaves big donuts in case necks. Think about it, the closer that the parent case diameter to the formed case diameter, the lesser the donut effect and in this case it would transitioning from 7mm to .30 cal.

When I responded to Stan I was holding both Lapua 6BR and Rem 7BR cases and also taking into account the current location of the neck shoulder junction. I've made both 30BR and 338 Whisper cases from 6BR and 7BR brass and from a pure caseforming operation, I prefer using Remington 7BR brass. However, it is not nearly as robust as Lapua brass.

Besides, Remington 7BR brass can be purchased in 20 count boxes, whereas Lapua can't and I don't think anyone carries 20 count Norma 6BR brass anymore. I've given up on Remington 6BR brass for radical caseforming as it's terribly soft from slightly below the shoulder on up to the mouth.

I like wildcatting, it's combination of physics class, chemistry and shop class rolled into one and then sometimes the light just comes on.

I realize all the logical reasons for the 7mm being easier to form up given the less amount of expanding, I was just going by what was stated on that site that was referenced above. I think it had to do with the construction of the brass or something. I'll quote it next time, that way taking out any questions as to the origin of the comment.

OK, back to work men!!!