6 AR

Guys:

Just shot a 6 AR a buddy of mine made for me. Had enough time to test four or five loads last weekend and zero it at 25 yards. Shot it Over the Course today.

No doubt about it, that 6 AR is competitive. A quantum improvement over the Grendel for the purpose of High Power. 2780 fps with a 107 Sierra. Back in the ball park is all I can say.

Now, I will still shoot the Grendel as I want to mess around with some bullets I am making in 6.5 but otherwise -- 6 AR for Over the Course.

LR1955

Guys:

Just shot a 6 AR a buddy of mine made for me. Had enough time to test four or five loads last weekend and zero it at 25 yards. Shot it Over the Course today.

No doubt about it, that 6 AR is competitive. A quantum improvement over the Grendel for the purpose of High Power. 2780 fps with a 107 Sierra. Back in the ball park is all I can say.

Now, I will still shoot the Grendel as I want to mess around with some bullets I am making in 6.5 but otherwise -- 6 AR for Over the Course.

LR1955

You should try the Berger 108 as well

Just shot a 6 AR a buddy of mine made for me.

No doubt about it, that 6 AR is competitive. A quantum improvement over the Grendel...
Aha! Further confirmation that 6mm is indeed the optimum caliber. ;) :D

(Sorry, John. I just couldn't resist. :) )

Aha! Further confirmation that 6mm is indeed the optimum caliber. ;) :D

(Sorry, John. I just couldn't resist. :) )


I one of my earliest posts over 2 yrs ago I commented on the merits of the 6BR and how close the Grendel is to it case capacity and that I thought it would do well in 6mm, boy did I hear it from the "bigger bullet" crowd.

No doubt about it, the 6mmAR is a great cartridge. Steve Satern was in my neck of the woods today for a high-power meet, so I had lunch with him and two other guys.

I asked what he thought about the 6mmAR and the 6.5 Grendel as far as over-the-course and he thought they'd probably go neck and neck, even though "on paper" the 6mm has the edge. He seemed to think there's something to the greater mass of a larger bullet in the wind (there's other barrel factors, but that's probably just bragging! ;)).

He says this, in part, because, at Camp Perry last week, with his 6.5 Grendel using the 123 SMK he was able to match the windage of a guy next to him shooting a 6XC.

The consensus at the table was that if you're a "6mm guy," you'll do just fine with the 6mmAR. And if you're a "6.5mm guy" you'll do just fine with a 6.5 Grendel. That's on the mechanical level, you still need to be able to judge wind, hold steady, and make a clean trigger break!

I'm all for competitors using the best tools for each particular discipline, so let us know how it goes, LR! :D

John

Aha! Further confirmation that 6mm is indeed the optimum caliber. ;) :D

(Sorry, John. I just couldn't resist. :) )

Sorry Stan, I just couldn't resist! :D

Guys:

Just shot a 6 AR a buddy of mine made for me. Had enough time to test four or five loads last weekend and zero it at 25 yards. Shot it Over the Course today.

No doubt about it, that 6 AR is competitive. A quantum improvement over the Grendel for the purpose of High Power. 2780 fps with a 107 Sierra. Back in the ball park is all I can say.

Now, I will still shoot the Grendel as I want to mess around with some bullets I am making in 6.5 but otherwise -- 6 AR for Over the Course.

LR1955

I had a feeling you would find the 6mmAR to your liking. You seemed to be describing it when talking about what you found lacking in the Grendel.

On a side note. I threw in the towel on USPSA pistol competition. The rub is there is no way to practice as you can't shoot on the practical range without a certified Range Officer and despite many hours of driving to ranges where officers promised to appear, they did not (Except for Blake Bennett, who is a saint). I asked around and many other USPSA shooters complained bitterly about the same problem. Since the sport is dominated by drawing from a holster, firing two shots into lots of spaced targets as fast as possible, a static range is virtually worthless for practice. Thirty shots into a target at 10 yards in 30-40 seconds with 3 reloads, NOT from a holster, will get you a rude scolding or booted off the range at any static range.

I did Bill Drills in my living room until I finally decided I wasn't interested in standing in my living room dry-firing at scale targets. It got so bad my double-action accuracy was getting better than my single action. If someone is interested in sitting on their couch practicing reloads or shooting faces on their TV then by all means sign up for USPSA. If you actually want to show up at matches, not suck, and enjoy some camaraderie with other shooters, look elsewhere. My take is that grading everyone on the curve against each other eliminates any interest people have in helping each other outside of immediate family. A big disappointment.

Sorry Stan, I just couldn't resist! :D
That's okay, Roy. I reckon I deserved it. ;) :) :p

Too bad about your lack of facilities for pistol practice. :( No suitable place out in the boonies you can go?

He says this, in part, because, at Camp Perry last week, with his 6.5 Grendel using the 123 SMK he was able to match the windage of a guy next to him shooting a 6XC. John


John:

So, a 123 Sierra at 2700 fps equals a 6 mm 115 VLD at 3100 fps?

I think I would argue that one. There is too much a difference between bullet design and velocities.

Also, IMHO given two shooters of identical ability, I predict the one shooting the 6 AR will beat the one shooting the 6.5 Grendel in any NRA High Power Event.

Lower recoil and a better bullet shot at faster safe speeds.

I also predict that one will go through 6 MM barrels at a rate of 1 1/2 or 2 each 6 MM barrels per 6.5 Grendel barrel.


LR1955

My take is that grading everyone on the curve against each other eliminates any interest people have in helping each other outside of immediate family. A big disappointment.

Roy:

Not surprised to hear of your woes with IPSC and or 3 Gun -- in the State of California anyway.

One of the bigger complaints I hear against IPSC or 3 Gun is the lack of assistance to new shooters from older competitors. It may not be factual but that is the perception of many and perceptions count more than facts in most cases. Hard for me to believe a High Master or what ever they are called in IPSC or 3 Gun would not assist a novice shooter but that seems to be the case. No sweat -- that sport will die.

Perhaps you should try conventional NRA bullseye competition with the pistol and or High Power with the rifle. You will find that there are too many guys trying to assist in these disciplines.

I believe the motivation of the competitors is different between IPSC / 3 Gun and conventional NRA High Power / Pistol bullseye. If I were to place bets on the motivational factors of each type of competitor, I would bet that the IPSC and 3 gun guys are externally (ego) motivated and the bullseye guys are internally motivated. One competes out of the desire to prove he is better than others and the other competes to refine his own techniques and attain personal goals.

Either way, one either deals with the conditions of the sport or it is best to just find another sport more conducive to one's goals and attitudes.

I am sure you will find another shooting discipline that will allow you to achieve your goals.

Best of luck!

LR-1955

Glad you have found an upper and caliber that you feel good about.
That seems to be half the battle.

Next on the agenda will be for you to get consistently better scores with the 6mm to prove to yourself on paper that it is a marked improvement.

Roy:

Not surprised to hear of your woes with IPSC and or 3 Gun -- in the State of California anyway.

One of the bigger complaints I hear against IPSC or 3 Gun is the lack of assistance to new shooters from older competitors. It may not be factual but that is the perception of many and perceptions count more than facts in most cases. Hard for me to believe a High Master or what ever they are called in IPSC or 3 Gun would not assist a novice shooter but that seems to be the case. No sweat -- that sport will die.

Perhaps you should try conventional NRA bullseye competition with the pistol and or High Power with the rifle. You will find that there are too many guys trying to assist in these disciplines.

I believe the motivation of the competitors is different between IPSC / 3 Gun and conventional NRA High Power / Pistol bullseye. If I were to place bets on the motivational factors of each type of competitor, I would bet that the IPSC and 3 gun guys are externally (ego) motivated and the bullseye guys are internally motivated. One competes out of the desire to prove he is better than others and the other competes to refine his own techniques and attain personal goals.

Either way, one either deals with the conditions of the sport or it is best to just find another sport more conducive to one's goals and attitudes.

I am sure you will find another shooting discipline that will allow you to achieve your goals.

Best of luck!

LR-1955


I think you nailed it Gene. There were even 4-5 of us that asked to have 1 of the 4 ranges left intact after a long, hot, 6-hour match and offered to break down the stage when we were through practicing so it would have made life easier for everyone else who could have gone home to AC and shade. Nope! We were flat refused that courtesy and while we were arguing the point the old-timers came in and just tore down the stage to spit in our face. You know people are desperate for range time when they are hot, dehydrated and tired and they STILL are arguing with the range officer to get more time.

Since I work only 4-5 months out of the year there are many weeks where I could have stayed at the range all day and shot 1,000 rounds a day on the tactical range. I and many others are getting frustrated right out of the sport because we get no bootstrapping to get us through the ugly "crawl" stage, and I think that is because there are too many in the sport that can't improve beyond advanced crawl so they try real hard to keep the newbies down. When you first start out and are green as grass everyone is helpful. After you have an almost perfect Two-Alpha match everyone clams up real fast.

For me, personally, I don't want to be around assholes any more than I have to. If IPSC/USPSA shooters are that mean and insecure, screw them, they can have their little fiefdom. The bottom line is, I have enough time I could probably, eventually, find a way to practice, but it still doesn't fix the sport. In my professional and personal life I try to be helpful and find mentoring to be very rewarding. Being around people that don't feel the same way makes me a chump and them parasites. I've quit a few jobs for the same reason. Being part of a strong, tight, talented team where everyone has awesome game, and has everyone's back, is just waaaay too much fun to waste your time on jerks.

Some things you can't fix, you just have to move on - which is driven home a bit harder when you hit 50 as the time left to fritter away gets short. I just realized I wasn't having any fun and didn't like the general tone of the sport - in spite of some very special people who are the long-suffering exceptions.

I think I may try rifle next. My eyes are getting too poor to compete in bullseye pistol anymore. With a nice rifle scope and good glasses I should be able to eliminate that problem. I was also watching "The Shooter" on DVD last night and got to wondering if I still had the touch. In my early 20's I was a damned good distance shooter with a rifle - enough so nobody wanted to shoot with me after awhile. Of course, I was living in NM then and they still have some "boonies" left there. The ranchers used to pay us to hunt cats that attacked their livestock. Those cats are worthy opponents!

Anywho, I think you are right about the two sports. One has objective standards for success and one pits you against everyone else's performance that day. In the end, it seems to matter. I'll take up the question again after vacation and a trip to NM to see an old friend where I can do some unfettered long-range shooting at 8,000ft! :D.

The bottom line is, I have enough time I could probably, eventually, find a way to practice, but it still doesn't fix the sport.

Anywho, I think you are right about the two sports. One has objective standards for success and one pits you against everyone else's performance that day.
Roy, I don't know that IPSC competition needs to be fixed. It "pits you against everyone else's performance that day" for a good reason: it is based on the "real world" issue of self-defense shooting, which likewise pits you against your opponent(s) for a moment in the space-time continuum. IMO, they give "grades" in perhaps the only feasible way.

Access to adequate facilities to get some practice is another matter, though.

6mm just seems to be a happy round. My next "sniper" rifle will be in 6BR. 107's can get out and get 'em and the variants can easily get you to 1000.

As for needing a live fire range to excel is completely untrue. Steve Anderson authored a book showing drills you can do at home dry firing. These and dry fire training are validated by every Grandmaster and shooter in our sport. Steve made Grandmaster in less than 1 year spending most of his time in his basement working with an empty gun and scaled targets. If someone lacks the personal commitment to anything they are destined to fail. Bagging on a group of people that helped you is not fair to them and their efforts.

LR1955 - FWIW, the true shooters in both Highpower and IPSC/3-Gun shoot only against themselves. The only real difference (and what I like about Highpower) is that the score can be quanitified. Although the course doesn't change, conditions and how you read them do. Competition shooters (both in Highpower and IPSC) have tested +90% of everything that's out on the market or between the sports have invented most of the current standard parts available on guns that were custom just a couple of years ago.

The difference is simple. Competition shooters will guide you as long as you don't wear out your welcome.

Rich

stanc,

You're close. The sport of 3-Gun basically has two camps and neither one any longer considers it as a formal means of defensive shooting. However, as shown by operators in various theatres of operation, practical shooting, including USPSA/IPSC, is a great platform to learn how to quickly address multiple targets in multiple positions.

Rich

LR1955,

Have you seen guys using 6BR or 6 Dasher on the line in Space Gun?

Results?

Rich

Rich and Roy, this thread should be ONLY about the 6mmAR. Roy bitched a bit about his experiences with the IPSC crew. I've let Rich make what I consider a rebuttal, even if he did get a bit personal, but he's had his say.

Both of you, please let it drop. PM each other if you have more.

My finger is twitching just over the "Lock" button for this thread, so let's everybody keep it on topic for the sake of those looking to this thread for 6mmAR info.

John

LR1955, Have you seen guys using 6BR or 6 Dasher on the line in Space Gun? Results? Rich

Rich:

Negative. The AR gas guns I have seen are all 5.56. Some guys use the 6 BR in a bolt rifle for prone stuff to 600. No one I know of uses a 6 Dasher. I have a feeling that the 6 Dasher probably wears out barrels too fast. All of the 6 mm's are hard on barrels for some reason.

LR1955

Glad you have found an upper and caliber that you feel good about. That seems to be half the battle. Next on the agenda will be for you to get consistently better scores with the 6mm to prove to yourself on paper that it is a marked improvement.

Bruce:

Yes -- too bad the season here for over the course is almost over! Prone matches from here on out.

I am more concerned with barrel life of the 6 AR than its inherant ability over a Grendel for High Power.

I will probably shoot it for a while and go back to my T2K.

LR1955

POST DELETED. OFF TOPIC.

NOTE: If you wish to continue, please post your rebuttal in the General Discussion section under a new thread titled something like, "My Experience with IPSC Shooting."

This thread must get back on topic and stay on topic. Thank you.

John

Gene,

Thanks for this info and info provided via PM. That's what I figured. The 6 Dasher is nice as it does allow for that extra yardage and I agree, there's something about 6mm bullets and roaching barrels (although 243 appears to be the exception).

Neat thought that you're running a necked down Grendel case. How much real estate do you still have in the mag? The only reason I ask is being able to load the 115gr. Moly DTAC bullets. With the extra case capacity and again if there's room, this could be a pretty screamin' round.

Rich

Rich:

Negative. The AR gas guns I have seen are all 5.56. Some guys use the 6 BR in a bolt rifle for prone stuff to 600. No one I know of uses a 6 Dasher. I have a feeling that the 6 Dasher probably wears out barrels too fast. All of the 6 mm's are hard on barrels for some reason.

LR1955


Outside of 600 & 1000 BR the 6BR "improved" cases such as the Dasher, 6BRX,6BR-DX are still relatively unknowns. The biggest hinderance is the need to fireform cases. In an ideal situation one would would use a donor gun to make fireformed cases to save barrel wear.

Gene,

Thanks for this info and info provided via PM. That's what I figured. The 6 Dasher is nice as it does allow for that extra yardage and I agree, there's something about 6mm bullets and roaching barrels (although 243 appears to be the exception).

Neat thought that you're running a necked down Grendel case. How much real estate do you still have in the mag? The only reason I ask is being able to load the 115gr. Moly DTAC bullets. With the extra case capacity and again if there's room, this could be a pretty screamin' round.

Rich


Rich,

That DTAC bullet is almost 1.300" long and it likes to be driven hard. I don't think the 6mmAR will have enough case capacity and I bet you will need a 1-7/7.5 twist at those velocities at well.

I kinda figured that real estate would be the problem. Velocity isn't so much a concern since if it won't fit then it doesn't matter but too, we can play with powders and hopefully get 'er.

Oh well.

BTW...6 BR cases are available.

Rich

Outside of 600 & 1000 BR the 6BR "improved" cases such as the Dasher, 6BRX,6BR-DX are still relatively unknowns. The biggest hinderance is the need to fireform cases. In an ideal situation one would would use a donor gun to make fireformed cases to save barrel wear.

Well, hopefully soon I will be able to report positively about the BR-DX. My barrel, dies, etc are here, and I have started forming brass.

You are correct, forming the brass is a hinderance, more like a pain in the brass.

It was time to try something different. Hopefully, it will be worth the trouble...

Well, hopefully soon I will be able to report positively about the BR-DX. My barrel, dies, etc are here, and I have started forming brass.

You are correct, forming the brass is a hinderance, more like a pain in the brass.

It was time to try something different. Hopefully, it will be worth the trouble...



Yep, it's almost exactly like forming the 17 Super Jet from the 22 JET. How is that fireforming working out, which method did you settle on?


If I didn't have a 6x47SM reamer, I would convert my quick twist 6BR to BRX or BR-DX. Do you have any of the Berger 108's yet?

What's the BC on the Berger 108s?

John

Mike,

Turn necks to correct length, high neck tension, jam hard to lands, fire with almost full power load.

I need to see the reamer print as it seems to measure not a .283 neck, but much shorter.

Had TROUBLE to start as I was getting light primer strikes, but I seem to have that fixed. Dents in primers, but no detonation.

Makes for some serious stress to have a live round in the chamber, with a primer strike, that the extractor will not grab and extract as the case is so far into the chamber. Pucker up, and tap out with a cleaning rod. :eek:

Barrel is a 9 twist, so not sure if the 108s will stabilize. If you have a few, I would love to try them before I drop $30 on a whole box.

What's the BC on the Berger 108s?

John

Sorry for the drift again, but the 108s are BT, not VLD. Designed to have similar BC as the 105 VLD, but much easier to get to shoot.

The BC on a 105 BT is .527.

The BC on a 105 VLD is .565 IIRC

My guess is about .540 or so on the 108 BT.

Rich, That DTAC bullet is almost 1.300" long and it likes to be driven hard. I don't think the 6mmAR will have enough case capacity and I bet you will need a 1-7/7.5 twist at those velocities at well.

457:

You are correct. I think that the 107 will just fit for a magazine without hitting the inevitable donut that will occur. The 27.5 - 27.8 load of IMR or H-4895 will result in almost a compressed load. You may hear just a touch of crunching when seating the bullets to mag length.

I am messing with some ball powders because they meter so well. The 4895's are pretty course grained and they don't meter well for that light a powder charge. It is one thing to go + or - .3 grains when throwing 42 + grains of the stuff into a .308 cartridge. Quite another to be + - .3 grains when you are only dealing with 27 grains in a Grendel cartridge.

Have tried TAC and will try again. Also, Ramshot Hunter. I dislike 2520 because it is inconsistent in temperatures and fowls more than any other rifle powder I have used.

LR1955

I
Had TROUBLE to start as I was getting light primer strikes, but I seem to have that fixed. Dents in primers, but no detonation.

Makes for some serious stress to have a live round in the chamber, with a primer strike, that the extractor will not grab and extract as the case is so far into the chamber. Pucker up, and tap out with a cleaning rod. :eek:

Barrel is a 9 twist, so not sure if the 108s will stabilize. If you have a few, I would love to try them before I drop $30 on a whole box.


Good link on fireforming and light strikes

http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html

Twist is 1-9
BC= .527 as marked on box, but Eric says it's actually .547. Yep, I got you covered.

As always, thanks Mike!! ;)

Noting your comment on the 6x47 - while I was sitting at the range staring at the rifle with the stuck case, I was thinking a straight 6x47 would sure have been easier... ;) :D :D

As always, thanks Mike!! ;)

Noting your comment on the 6x47 - while I was sitting at the range staring at the rifle with the stuck case, I was thinking a straight 6x47 would sure have been easier... ;) :D :D


Yeah, if I hadn't already had the 6x47Swiss Match stuff before the 6.5 Lapua case appeared I would now have a 6x47 Lapua instead. However, it's painless because I neck the 6.5 Lapua down to 6mm and run that case into the 6x47SM FL die which bumps the shoulder back .039 easily. I want to try R15 and IMR4007SC behind that 108.

6x47SM: 1.363" base to shoulder
6/6.5x47L:1.402"
6XC: 1.451"

What's the OAL on the 6AR (2.250 > X < 2.260)? Just thinkin', what about a modified mag like the single stack AR mags for loading the 80gr VLD bullets in 223 but loading the 115's. I know I'm kinda stuck on these bullets, but y'all gotta admit...they're pretty sweet.

I love the 6mm bullet and it's why my bolt guns are 6 Ackley, 243 and 6 BR.

Rich

What's the OAL on the 6AR (2.250 > X < 2.260)? Just thinkin', what about a modified mag like the single stack AR mags for loading the 80gr VLD bullets in 223 but loading the 115's. I know I'm kinda stuck on these bullets, but y'all gotta admit...they're pretty sweet. I love the 6mm bullet and it's why my bolt guns are 6 Ackley, 243 and 6 BR. Rich

Rich:

Hell, I don't know or care what the OAL is for a magazine seat. I seat the bullet in far enough so it shows a little light between the tip and the inside of the front of the magazine. Set the seating die and that is that. So far, the only rifle I have had that showed a chamber that required seating a bullet farther in than the inside length of a magazine was my T2K with a .260 Barrel I got from McMillan. They (McMillan) failed -- and I repeat FAILED -- to ensure they cut the leade deep enough -- and charged me about $400.00 for a barrel I then had to get chambered properly for a bullet to seat without the ogive having to be shoved into the brass.

LR1955

hi lr .

i will have my gun complete in the morning . ill try to post some pics.

the thing is made up of.
medesha rear stock
arx upper with side charge handle (whitley) 6mmar.com
kreiger 26" ss
rra lower
geissle trigger
stalling machine 30mm front sight
reg tooling rear sight (palma)
tubb grip

the brass is lapua and when robert said it was easy to prep he was right. run it through the resize die and its done, load and shoot.....
watch out sitting heeer i come. so far the lower and stock feel great off hand . the stock is short enough to sit right ontop of my shoulder pocket and it is as solid as a rock. i wil break in monday evening and start practice shortly after . i will be using n 140 with the 105 bt and the 90 bts i will also try some 65 fb. let me know what you are shooting i am curious.
anyway talk to ya later
lee eastridge.

let me know what you are shooting i am curious.
anyway talk to ya later lee eastridge.

Lee:

My upper was made for me by a friend to include the barrel. 28" bbl with an adjustable gas block. Two more inches of gas tube.

27 1/2 grains of H or IMR 4895 gives me 2750 fps with the 107 Sierra.

Best loads so far are 27 1/2 grains of Varget and 28 grains of TAC. I prefer Tac because it meters very consistently. I don't like using extruded powders in low capacity cases for High Power as I can't individual load everything. Both loads gave me 1/2 MOA at 200 with 2750 fps for the Varget and 2780 fps for the TAC load. I spent months testing Grendel loads. I spent two hours testing 6 AR loads and have no need to do any more testing.

About anything you put in to the case in terms of the right types of powder will give you exceptional accuracy. The 4895's and TAC's -- just like a .308. Velocities will differ. I shot 28 grains of Big Game powder the other day and got fine accuracy but 2550 fps velocity which won't do past 200.

LR1955

lr, you were right . i tried some 65g fb bergers and they shoot pretty good.
@ 200 yds 1" 5shot group iron sights, and the best part is there was no recoil @ all, i mean none.! the 105 bt shot well also . i will be going to tulsa next month for a 600 yd match to see what this thing can do.

i also am trying a enedine recoil buffer and i think it works really well. did i say no recoil at all. from shot to shot the sight literally stayed on target
looks like sitting is going to give me a little respect in the near future.

i asume the fb is going around 2900 to 3000 fps i keep on trying to see the bullet but by the time i get off the gun its already through the paper ha ha
load is berger 65 fb
vv n-140
cci b4
lapua brass
oal 2.200 ( the 105 is 2.250 .0010 off the lands).
talktoyalater
lee eastridge