Hunting with 6.5 Grendel in an AR Vs a Bolt gun in X Caliber for medium/large game.

[feetpiece]

I was talking a buddy of mine who is just as big of a gun nut if not more so than I am about my interest in the Grendel and he posed that question to me. I explained that like lever guns, I have no interest or experience with a bolt gun. Sure it would be cheaper and arguably more effective in a different caliber. I've had an M-16A2, M4A1 and M4 in my hands regularly over the last 16 years so I'm more than comfortable with the weapon and manual of arms. I picked up a Safari Grade BAR in .300WM for a good price while I was home and after reading here for the past few months it, like my behemoth SuperRedhawk .454 are getting the boot when I get back. Before I left I almost p/u a Magna port'ed Rem 700 in .458 Win Mag for less than what I just paid for my Grendel upper.

So I ask the Horde because I haven't seen or found a thread dedicated to the "why" in the transition to the Grendel for hunting medium/large game.

[bwaites]

Low recoil with very good sectional density bullets. Since the 6.5x55 and various other 6.5 cartridges have been available for a while, there at LOTS of both target and hunting bullets available from 85 to 160 grains.

You can build a lightweight hunting AR and shoot it enough to be very comfortable with its accuracy and performance. Try that with a .300 WinMag or .458 WinMag!!!

However, if your BAR is for sale, I'm always interested in interesting guns!! LOL!!!

[JohnOD]

For the cash I have tied up in my 6.5 Grendel AR I could have purchased 3 or 4 Model 70's or 700's. On top of that the 6.5 Grendel cartridge is rather anemic compared to what most guys are carrying in the woods deer hunting but the key is it's potent enough for the vast majority of shots I'll ever take on deer sized game.

My gun safe holds an assortment of bolt action center fire rifles suitable for hunting anything in North America. The 6.5G is a very accurate cartridge and is very "shoot-able" due to its low recoil that it’s hard to not grab it when hitting the woods.

When I take the time to think about it it’s hard to justify the 6.5Grendel being the best tool for the job. For me it comes down to its just flat out a neat cartridge and loads of fun to shoot. When logic fails I fall back on suffering an acute case of BRD :)

[bwaites]

What John said!

The Grendel isn't the perfect tool for every job, it just does so many of them well that it works! There are only a few game animals in North America where I would not make it a first choice: Brown Bear, Buffalo, and Moose. Of those, Brown Bear is the only one where I would really feel it isn't adequate. Buffalo and Moose can both be easily taken with it, in fact 6.5x55 has taken more Moose than probably any cartridge, and the Grendel comes very close to traditional 6.5x55 loads.

For Brown Bear, the Beo is a good choice!

[Drifter]

I prefer the AR for hunting because of its versatility. With a QD scope mount and folding BUIS, the setup can be tailored to any particular hunting task and style in a moment's notice. It's literally just seconds to change from a long-range precision rig (with scope, bipod, etc) to a lighter fast-handling short-range setup for use in thicker terrain, and back again as circumstances dictate.

In the AR-15 platform (my preference over the larger and heavier AR-10 / LR-308 platform), the 6.5 Grendel is perhaps the best factory-loaded cartridge to compliment the weapon system's versatility.

[hm2 clark]

Is the question "Why hunt with a Grendel?" or is it "Is it better to hunt with an AR Grendel or a bolt action Grendel?" ? I hunt with both.

[feetpiece]

I think I meant in the sense that the common perception is that AR's are not suitable for hunting by many folks.

[LRRPF52]

I think I meant in the sense that the common perception is that AR's are not suitable for hunting by many folks.

That mindset has gone the way of the gun, as the AR displaces yesteryear's Mauser-inspired bolt guns, a design dating back to the late 1800's. Sure, the Mauser action will never die, but you have 3 generations of veterans now who have learned to love the despised black rifle. Its inherent accuracy, its ability to be tailored to the user by the user, plus the caliber selection, offer several affordable options for the hunter, competitor, and patriot that no other firearms design can really compete with.

In the AR15 platform, the Grendel really does squeeze the most bang for weight that can be squeezed, especially for a lightweight hunting carbine. The .264" high sectional density pills really justify the surge in popularity that we're finally seeing with them in the US, ever since competitive shooters started leaning more and more to the .260 Rem to buck the wind better, with the ability to shoot higher volumes without the cost & recoil penalty of a .300 WM.

The Grendel delivers near-6.5 Swede performance, where moderate velocities combined with high sectional density hunting bullets conspire to plunge through most game sizes with little resistance.

[hm2 clark]

My.02 cents worth is to respecfully disagree. The bolt action family of rifles are the end result of 130 years of steady trait selecton and modification to make the best hunting rifles humans have yet produced. They can be used in battle-but are best used as hunting rifles. The AR family of rifles are the result of 50 years of steady trait selection and modification to make them the best battlefield rifles humans have yet produced. Sure they are now being used as huntiing rifles-but where they shine is on the battlefield.

[rickOshay]

Is the issue here about semi-auto hunting rifles, or just the AR-15 platform? Or is it the 6.5mm caliber? Others have already given good answers in favor of the caliber. Is the issue really about negative views of the AR?

With regards to semi autos: Ruger, Remington, Browning autoloaders have been taken into the woods for decades. And now Benelli has joined the pack with the cool looking R1. Would a Remington 750 in 6.5 Grendel be more accepted as a hunting rifle than a 6.5G Remington R-15?

It is unfortunate that Outdoor life ran an article on the top 20 semi-auto hunting rifles, but 12 of the 20 were AR variants. http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/rifles/centerfire/2011/11/20-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting

Interesting to see the negative views of ARs in the comments below the article.

[txgunner00]

We are our own worst enemy at times. The "I dun been ahuntin' fer fifty years with nuttin' but a thuddy thuddy" crowd makes me laugh.

[feetpiece]

Is the issue here about semi-auto hunting rifles, or just the AR-15 platform? Or is it the 6.5mm caliber? Others have already given good answers in favor of the caliber. Is the issue really about negative views of the AR?

With regards to semi autos: Ruger, Remington, Browning autoloaders have been taken into the woods for decades. And now Benelli has joined the pack with the cool looking R1. Would a Remington 750 in 6.5 Grendel be more accepted as a hunting rifle than a 6.5G Remington R-15?

It is unfortunate that Outdoor life ran an article on the top 20 semi-auto hunting rifles, but 12 of the 20 were AR variants. http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/guns/rifles/centerfire/2011/11/20-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting

Interesting to see the negative views of ARs in the comments below the article.

On the AK outdoor forum there was a comment regarding the safety/hazard or an autoloader. Specifically, how this particular hunter was uncomfortable walking around with one in the pipe before and after a shot. From what I'seen this is the second most common argument against outside of calibers and mag capacity being too much/unnecessary.

[stokesrj]

I think I meant in the sense that the common perception is that AR's are not suitable for hunting by many folks.

I am more comfortable hunting with a bolt rifle than an AR but I would not hesitate to use my 6.5 Grendel AR and in some situations it would be preferred.
At one time this was not true for me and I deemed anyone who used an AR for hunting as being one of the tactic-cool mall ninja crowd, not a real hunter.
To be honest, it was a position taken out of ignorance, since I have learned more about the AR and about the Grendel, I get it, where before I did not. I suspect many of those
opposed to the black rifle were like me and are candidates for conversion.

[tbarnby]

I think I meant in the sense that the common perception is that AR's are not suitable for hunting by many folks.

There's nothing wrong with that opinion. There's nothing wrong with being WRONG! The AR platform is the perfect platform of hunting. It's accurate, as light as you care to make it, offers a wide array of sighting options, which you can change in a matter of seconds, and has a great variety of caliber options. People who feel it is not suitable for hunting, have probably no hunted...or are so opinionated that Charleton Heston himself couldn't sway them.

I'm actually dumping my bolt actions this year...except the rimfires, of course. Oh, and my Mosin...

[nincomp]

This may sound stupid to those of you who have been shooting autoloaders for a long time, but I do get a little nervous about new shooters hunting with a semi. A shooter must have practiced enough that he will not accidentally fire off multiple rounds. Many new AR hunters don't have extensive military/LEO experience with the weapon.

Note: I said accidentally. A second shot while in full recoil can go a long, long, way.

Could this happen? Well… The second or third time I had a shooting session with a Saiga 7.62x39, I was determined to find out the absolute best accuracy that I could get out of the thing (stop snickering! It was, after all, sold as a “sporting rifle”). I decided to try different ammo and shooting styles. Here, it is important to point out that virtually all of my shooting over the years was with an air rifle, .22, or 9mm carbine. I had shot the 7.62x39 before. Mild recoil, certainly not like a .308, .270, or 30-06. I wasn’t worried.

Eventually, I got around to the standing position, left elbow tucked in – supporting the rifle with my knuckles. From prior experience, I knew that some rifles were more accurate if held loosely and allowed to follow-through without much resistance.

You guys probably know what happened. I kept my trigger hand loose, gently squeezed off a shot and, as the barrel rose and rifle recoiled into my shoulder, it bounced off –the trigger reset - and the danged thing fired again during the follow through. I had accidentally “bump fired” a round. The second shot was well above where I was aiming. Rather pale-faced, I thanked God that I was at a range that could stop the round.

The only thing that I could think of was “what if I had made that mistake outdoors and the bullet hit someone far down range.”

I am not the only person to accidentally double-tap (or more). More than one shooting range with a good berm has been closed because some bullets ended up in houses far downrange. Accidental double taps maybe?

Another fellow I met had a more spectacular experience with a semi-automatic 12 ga shotgun (extended magazine, of course). He was an experienced shooter, but something about the combination of the recoil-pad and the coat he was wearing kept the shotgun bump-firing until out of ammo. He said that he simply could not get his finger away from the trigger. He also said that he needed clean underwear afterwards.

Jim

[StoneTower]

I find it amusing that some people think that the ar-15 is unsafe or unethical to use for hunting. Since I was a kid I have hunted with a semi-automatic shotgun. Probably 90%-95% of duck and goose hunters use auto-loaders. Most handguns that are carried on concealed carry permits are semi-auto. These ideas comes from ignorance. It is very nice to have a second shot when you are pig hunting. I never load more than 5 or 6 in a 10 round magazine because I don't want to carry the weight. The AR-15 is a very safe platform when used properly and shown respect. The weapon can be charged and unloaded with the safety engaged unlike many semi-automatic handguns. Our soldiers use similar weapons daily and there are very few incidents. There are some people who I don't feel are responsible enough to have any type of gun and I would not feel safe anywhere near them with any type of gun.

In my opinion an AR rifle that is used for hunting should have a trigger that has not been lightened too much. I run 4 pound Timney AR-10 triggers on all my AR rifles. It keeps the AR-10 and AR-15 platforms predictable for me. You do not want a 3 oz trigger on an auto-loading rifle that will be used in the field.

The biggest danger of a new hunter with a semi-automatic gun is that after the first shot, they get excited to see the game that they have taken and forget that they still have a loaded weapon that now does not have the safety on.

[txgunner00]

I have a MAK90 that I have a hard time not bump firing it when shooting from a rest on a bench. It has an unusually light and smooth trigger for an AK variant. It does make a fun toy if you want to burn up some ammo.

[feetpiece]

In my opinion an AR rifle that is used for hunting should have a trigger that has not been lightened too much. I run 4 pound Timney AR-10 triggers on all my AR rifles. It keeps the AR-10 and AR-15 platforms predictable for me. You do not want a 3 oz trigger on an auto-loading rifle that will be used in the field.

The biggest danger of a new hunter with a semi-automatic gun is that after the first shot, they get excited to see the game that they have taken and forget that they still have a loaded weapon that now does not have the safety on.

Trigger/safety engagement is easily correctable using reflexive fire drills. With 5.56 of course because its cheaper...

How would you rate the Timmney over the Wilson or JP?

[yellowfin]

I think I meant in the sense that the common perception is that AR's are not suitable for hunting by many folks.

Most of the problem lies with the association of the AR platform with the .223 caliber, which is considered by most to be severely disadvantaged if not entirely inadequate for deer hunting. There is an abundance of people who hunt who are not serious gun owners in the sense of reading Internet forums and magazines and keeping up with the latest for the simple reason that they don't have to. The same .270 or .30-30 they got as a hand-me-down or at a Walmart accomplishes the basic task of putting holes in paper and occasional deer or pigs or whatever without a whole lot of thought or knowledge, and the general rule of thumb is that anything with .22 in front of it doesn't get that job done or often it isn't legal in their state to even try. Again, because they're not hardcore gun geeks they go by the easy-to-come-by knowledge that AR = .223 because that's been common knowledge for 50-60 years and that's what's on the shelf where they conveniently buy their guns and ammo.

I'm currently living in Pennsylvania where you can't hunt with an autoloader of any kind regardless of whether it's 6.5, 6.8, .308, or even .30-06. I'm mad as hell about that and will be making regular trips to Harrisburg as often as it takes to get that changed.

[yellowfin]

We are our own worst enemy at times. The "I dun been ahuntin' fer fifty years with nuttin' but a thuddy thuddy" crowd makes me laugh.

That very crowd is what's keeping PA in the Stone Age by blocking semi autos from being legal for hunting here, and they keep New York an anti gun state instead of a pro gun state. It isn't funny at all when you've got those jerkoffs holding you back.

[stokesrj]

I would sugget that a skilled hunter can kill just as many deer with a pump, bolt, lever, or even single shot as with a semiauto. I find it very amusing what some states consider unacceptable and others find desireable.
I was in a gun store in Tulouse France that had a sign that suggested you could practice with your suppressed Hamarelli semi auto pistol in your yard without disturbing your neighbor. I've been on culling shoots in south africa with a supressed Vore .243 pump that uses 20 round magazines shooting hundreds of springbok at night which was the preferred way, but semiauto's scare them. Then I've killed tons of big game myself with a single shot Blaser .22 hornet. One mans vinegar is another mans honey. It is all a bunch of ballony to make some feel good at the expense of others liberty.
Bob

[StoneTower]

Trigger/safety engagement is easily correctable using reflexive fire drills. With 5.56 of course because its cheaper...

How would you rate the Timney over the Wilson or JP?

The Timney is a fine single stage drop on unit that is very easy to install. The first AR that I owned and built was an Armalite AR-10 pattern on an Noveske N6 lower as we cannot own Armalite lowers in California. The AR-10 trigger only comes in 4 pound and also has a larger hammer so that hard large rifle primers get a good strike. The AR-10 trigger also works in Ar-15s and I decided to keep all my ARs the same and have continued to use the Timney AR-10 trigger in my rifles. The Timney trigger clamps in with some set screws and pushes up against the trigger pins preventing them from moving. It is a very nice design.

[hm2 clark]

I was kinda hopeing someone out there besides me could say "I have hunted with a 6.5 Grendel in both a AR platform and a bolt action platform and I find the ______ superior in the following situations." Not having tried a different acton limits the grendel hunter in knowing if he is using the best tool for the job.

[sneaky one]

My own son lambasted me 4 yrs. ago for going into our (traditional hunt spot- with traditional bolt guns)---and I show up w/ an AR-15 in Grendel caliber--6.5mm? my old man went bonkers, about the Japs-carcano-yadda-yadda. Jr's. beatch-sounded like this--- Really, dad-you feel the need to hunt w/ an assault rifle in northern mn.? I took them to our fave gravel pit - and wowwed them! Most want, or now own some version of this rifle. Me? I laugh, do what you want!!! F-anyone elses shortcomings about rifles. I am a hunter, not a trouble maker. Any thing I put in my hunting hand can be used as a weapon.= a pencil-knife-ruler, rope,, why cry about a rifle-- more people die from drugs, alcohol, car accidents.,-- than guns, especially the evil black rifle--- oooooooh... wait till the shiite hits the fan, ya----- who'll be your best neighbor pal then? All the weeenies of the world will cower behind you,, hoping you'll save them. hee-hee.

[txgunner00]

I was kinda hopeing someone out there besides me could say "I have hunted with a 6.5 Grendel in both a AR platform and a bolt action platform and I find the ______ superior in the following situations." Not having tried a different acton limits the grendel hunter in knowing if he is using the best tool for the job.

I would think the pros and cons of bolt vs. AR would be the same with any caliber.

[rickOshay]

-- more people die from drugs, alcohol, car accidents.,--

Exactly - if people were really concerned about public safety - they would be just as upset by alcohol and tobacco as they are about firearms.

[sneaky one]

Thats right rickO. Spread the word... get a rifle-it's safer than driving - or smoking-ha-ha! Our vices are the true end of us all- not guns, nor the mayan calender BULL shiite. Grow up americans. Don't buy into anyones hype, about weapons,= they have been around a long time-just like us as humans on a way cool planet! Cave dwellers used to protect themselves w/ sticks and stones-no-one tried to take those items away-by a govt. idea.- or a moral idea. Live free, vote out anyone that tries to stop that idea..

[rasp65]

Sneaky I don't think you understand the potential disaster that awaits us with the end of the Mayan calendar. Most Mayans are Mexican and half the Mexicans live in the US illegally. When Dec 13 2012 hits they won't know what day it is and they won't show up to their jobs. Since they are the only ones who have jobs, the country will fail rather quickly when they no-show. It isn't just that when the stars line up on Dec.12 and causes a polar shift that we have to worry about. That will be a good thing for us Free Americans in the northern latitudes. Just think Sneaky we will be helo hunting hogs and the guys in Texas will be hunting walrus. Am I the only one who sees this impending disaster looming.

[ChellieWiles]

I think the world is going to do what it's always done. Over the past 4 years, up until about 4 months ago, I lived in the woods...literally. I spent my days walking the solitary paths of the wrinkles across the face of our Nation. From Mount hood in Oregon, through the hole of Jackson and across through Vail and down into oklahoma, across the prairies into the pine cones of the carolinas and there is one thing I can say with absolute certainty, no two days were ever the same. The world tosses and turns and moans from time to time, but disaster will only loom in the horizons of men who don't know their future. Keep in mind where these prophecies are coming from, the internet. I remember the first few years of the net and all the bullshiite we told each other using this new kind of freedom...and damn if this next generation isn't eating it up. The world is the same as it's always been, forever in change, roll with it...savvy?

[rickOshay]

What just happened?

[hm2 clark]

I think it was the rapture. If your still stuck here on earth .... .... you gotta stay on thread. So...... Please explain why you think no rifle action is superior to another when hunting big game, but a semi auto is clearly superior in combat.

[sneaky one]

The choice of bolt or semi- is really one's personal choice, laws in your area-past experiences. Most of us own , or have owned-all the guns that deliver a round to the chamber via -pump lever-semi-bolt, even if by hand=break open actions. They all work, if used as properly for game and target work--there is no true perfect gun for all-buy a variety ! I chose the Grr., for where I hunt. It can be a hoot to be controversial in the northern woods, also I have some toothy critters out in the dense woodlands of Northern MN. I decided I wanted some reliable compact firepower- in a midsize cal.----IF I ever needed it to save myself. The paranoia of 08-09 helped sales of AR's immensily. So I thought might as well get one while I still can. I love my choice,,, after the bugs were worked out!

[Variable]

What just happened?
LOL! Rasp just made a good joke.:) I read the first sentence and thought "Aww crap, here we go...", then I kept on reading and laughed it up. I just hope the calendars allow for me to pay for my roof and someday still helo hunt hogs before it gets banned somehow.LOL!

ETA: for on topic--- I prefer an AR for hunting for familiarities sake, and don't see it as any more dangerous than a double barrel shotgun. If fudd forgets the safety on his double barrel after shooting a round, and then has his finger on the trigger... Are double barrel shotguns unsafe to hunt with? They sure seem to be accepted in the "sporting" community...;)

[Smoke]

This is coming from what used to be a die hard Bolt gun shooter ..600-1000yd comps were my ticket.. Precision shooting .. could not have given me an AR 10 years ago..
Now with the advent of CNC machining producing precision repeatable close tolerance parts, larger AR calibers, scopes and accessories for the AR . that is all I use now to hunt with.. Using mainly the grendel..
This is how I put it .. Always going for the kill shot .. but deer tend to move,, now I have an instant second shot if I get a bad shot . (hate to ever wound an animal) and the Ar is just as accurate as most bolt guns.. I can shorten the gun for climbing adjust the length if its really cold and I am wearing extra clothing , later on I can throw on a light and laser and play tactical or go to a 3 gun match.. They are just so adaptable..
for varmints, a AR with a quad rail I can mount a nite vision easily plus a magnifier, drop on a bipod you name it is easy to do with an AR

[Smokepole50]

Bolt VS Semi question............I think Bolt. Why, because you can work up loads with heavier bullets for a wider range of hunting applications. I would think you can also squeeze out just a tad more velocity by seating the bullet out further and running a bit more pressure in a bolt rifle.

Semi VS Bolt for accuracy, fire power and ethical taking of game, namely the Deer, Whitetailed or what ever type you have in your back yard.......... I think most hunters as they get older believe that all you should need is one shot to take most game animals, shotgun hunters exempted. If you know you most likely will not have time for a second shot because you have to chamber another round then most seasoned hunters will make that first shot count and not need a follow up shot, dangerous game excluded. ........The bolt action looses nothing in the gas system and you can usually load better bullets then you can fit in a semi's magazine. This improves your chance of making ethical shots by icreasing your range and the power of your cartridge just a little.........The Ethical Taking of Game......this is a big one in many peoples eyes. The .223 is not legal for hunting big game here in VA and I am glad of it. There are way to many hunters out there who are not effecient enough with a rifle to make a clean one shot kill with the .223, period. I am not saying it will not kill effectivly in the hands of a marksman/hunter/vetern, it will. However it is not enough bullet for most shoulder shots and deer do run off and die in thickets when hit by 100gr .243 Win. rifle bullets, much less 75gr .223/5.56 bullets.

My first EBR was a Grendel and although I have not yet found a comfortable way to carry the rifle in the woods I bought it to hunt deer with and for the occasional Zombie if need be. I feel much more confident with the extra power of a bolt action 6.5x55, 7mm Mauser or .338 Win Mag. I am almost 52 and I can see the advantages of the AR platform in certain types of hunting like varmet hunting or predator hunting when follow up shots at range are more likely needed then not at moving game. The problem with most peoples image of a AR hunter is that they don't have enough rifle because they automatically think 5.56 or .223 when they see the Matel Toy. As big as the AR shooting crowd has become, the 6.5 Grendel crowd is still quite small and the general AR weapon system suffers from the stigma of not being enough weapon today, much the same as the 7mm Mauser or 6.5 Swedish Mauser did in the past when the 30-06 ruled the Big Game woods in the USA.

That's what I think if your interested.......

[hm2 clark]

Good point smokepole. I too have not found a comfortable way to carry an AR while hunting. I use a friction strap-cant say I like it.

[Ullr]

hm2 clark

So...... Please explain why you think no rifle action is superior to another when hunting big game, but a semi auto is clearly superior in combat.

1) Because big game hunting is a one-shot proposition in theory, and very close to that in practice. Combat is not.

2) Because success in combat is a matter of life and death. Hunting is not.

Given that, the efficiency advantage of a semi-auto over other actions in hunting pretty much vanishes. There is some small benefit in those few instances where a follow-up shot is necessary and presents itself, but it isn't like combat where the necessary follow up shots might require a belt feed.


I too have not found a comfortable way to carry an AR while hunting.

Try the Blue Force Gear Vickers two-point sling. I've been hunting with that for the last three years, and now use it on all of my rifles. I wont use a shoulder strap anymore. I now know why the KAR98 and K-31 have the sling mounts on the side - hands free carry makes climbing mountains sooooooo much easier.

[Schwag173]

I can shorten the gun for climbing adjust the length if its really cold and I am wearing extra clothing , later on I can throw on a light and laser and play tactical or go to a 3 gun match.. They are just so adaptable.

And this is EXACTLY why I decided to build ARs for my boys. Rather than a traditional bolt or lever action, the telescoping-stock of the AR will grow right along with their individual lengths-of-pull. This way we don't play the youth stock/adult stock game. While my expense is greater (yeah ..., I know), these ARs will do it all or at least most of it. As for semiauto safety; train as you fight, fight as you trained. Mistakes can happen with anything, familiarity and good habits/training are the only cures.