Wolf introduced steel case 6.5mm Grendel at SHOT

Wolf introduced steel case 6.5mm Grendel at SHOT today.

They brought out a 110 grain FMJ-BT load. Projectile design is supposed to be along the lines of the 5.45x39mm 7N6 with the air pocket in the nose. Muzzle velocity is listed as 2,620 fps.

Supposed to ship 2nd quarter. Price is supposed to be just above that of 7.62x39mm.

Have a nice day...

Wolf introduced steel case 6.5mm Grendel at SHOT today.

They brought out a 110 grain FMJ-BT load. Projectile design is supposed to be along the lines of the 5.45x39mm 7N6 with the air pocket in the nose. Muzzle velocity is listed as 2,620 fps.

Supposed to ship 2nd quarter. Price is supposed to be just above that of 7.62x39mm.

Have a nice day...
Thanks for the heads up

One small step for them. One giant leap for tactical owners everywhere.

Ditto!

I hope it's as good as their 5.45 ammo. If it is, this stuff could be great for use in the AA tacticals, and other similar builds. If it is decent, I am going to be a very poor man for a long time to come. I remember the good ole' days of Norinco steel core 7.62x39 in the original tins for about $80-90 bucks a case.... If only we had known what was going to happen on the ammo front. :(

Just think if this turns out to be as good or better than their polymer 5.45mm..... I plan on stocking it as DEEP as I possibly can. I could finally let my 10.5" tactical roar with gleeful abandon! Don't forget: you can police your empties with an overgrown magnet. :D OK, I'm rambling now, I'll go calm down.

The 6.8SPC crew will be looking hard over their shoulder at this one. If it turns out well, it will be a massive infusion to the Grendel platform!

Thanks for the heads up David! We look forward to your review.

I bet Bill will be happy too! (untill he is up to his arse in orders and STRUGGLING to keep up) :D

Wolf introduced steel case 6.5mm Grendel at SHOT today.

They brought out a 110 grain FMJ-BT load. Projectile design is supposed to be along the lines of the 5.45x39mm 7N6 with the air pocket in the nose. Muzzle velocity is listed as 2,620 fps.

Supposed to ship 2nd quarter. Price is supposed to be just above that of 7.62x39mm.

Have a nice day...

It is truly a nice day!!! :D :) :D

Now, I'd never tell if a couple samples happened to fall into your pocket and a little later some cool new photos of Wolf 65G steel-cased happened to make their way onto the Web! ;)

John

P.S. I suppose it's a possibility they don't yet have samples?

Been thinking about getting a Grendel. This might put it over the top. I like Wolf ammo, I shoot it in my AR and get better groups than others, usually more expensive others. All this after some people told me the AR wouldn't even shoot Wolf ammo. I would like to load my own ammo but I am busy so this would be nice to have cheap store bought ammo available.

Wolf introduced steel case 6.5mm Grendel at SHOT today.

They brought out a 110 grain FMJ-BT load. Projectile design is supposed to be along the lines of the 5.45x39mm 7N6 with the air pocket in the nose.
Presumably without a steel core?
Supposed to ship 2nd quarter.
I probably shouldn't do this, but I just can't help myself. :o :D

At the 2006 show, Wolf also said that brass-cased ammo would be available in the second quarter.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6838&postcount=1

IIRC, it didn't happen until 16 months later... :eek:

Presumably without a steel core?



Probably, :( (So hurry up and find us a warehouse full of vintage, mint-never loaded-or pulled, 6.5 AP projectiles of suitable weight, construction, etc. that are reasonably priced... :D)

Still- if it is reliable, reasonably accurate, and priced well, it should be great practice/plinking/range ammo!

Reloading is fine, but I prefer shooting. Given the chance to get decent bulk case ammo for close to the price of reloading components would bring a lot more shooters on board. Personally, I'd be ectstatic!

At the 2006 show, Wolf also said that brass-cased ammo would be available in the second quarter.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/show...838&postcount=1

IIRC, it didn't happen until 16 months later...

I sure hope not... A delay of that length could find Wolf ammo import banned by a potential Democrat 'executive order'. :( She'll probably call it "Saturday Night Special" ammunition, or some other stupid crap to "save the children".... :mad: :mad: :( :mad: :eek:

Hurry Wolf!!!! Save us shooters!!!

Still- if it is reliable, reasonably accurate, and priced well, it should be great practice/plinking/range ammo!
To be sure. Plus, it'll be suitable for comparison testing with 5.56 and 7.62 ball, to get a better idea just how good 6.5 G is as a general purpose military load. I look forward to it.

Presumably without a steel core?

Correct. (Not that I've seen it, but in discussions with Bill I understand that there is no steel core.)

John

any pics?

Reloading is fine, but I prefer shooting. Given the chance to get decent bulk case ammo for close to the price of reloading components would bring a lot more shooters on board. Personally, I'd be ectstatic!

Shooting is like the fine art of making love. Reloading can be seen as the foreplay.

Joe

Shooting is like the fine art of making love. Reloading can be seen as the foreplay.

Joe

Good annalogy Joe! :D

Some guys are married to their presses, and feel they are cheating if they buy loaded stuff. They have quite an intimate relationship with their reloading equipment and it results in closely tailored cartridges due to their hands on approach.

Others may keep a couple of presses around for the rainy days when they can't buy what they want. They'll treat their presses good just long enough to get what they want out of 'em, then they'll buy the cheap stuff whenever it is available.

Personally, I have more than one press, but I ain't married to any of 'em. If the price is right, I'll gladly stray to pay for good spray(-ing ammo) any day!!!

She-Wolf is certified disease free these days, no more corroded bores... :eek:

:p :D ;)

Reloading is fine, but I prefer shooting. Given the chance to get decent bulk case ammo for close to the price of reloading components would bring a lot more shooters on board. Personally, I'd be ectstatic!

Shooting is like the fine art of making love. Reloading can be seen as the foreplay.

Joe



Actually I don't even have reloading equipment yet, I was just stating that even if the only option for cheap Grendel ammo would have been to reload my own it would still very tempting to get a Grendel. If Wolf makes good on steel cased ammo than Grendel makes leaps and bounds in my decision making. If anybody has any tips on "foreplay" I'd listen. It's a little embarrassing to admit, but I don't have much experience in "foreplay". Hell, I don't have much experience in "the fine art of making love" either. Of course, my first time was enough to tell me I like it. And I want to do it some more. Much more!!

Phoned Bill last night before he had to run off to another meeting, but he met with the Russians from Tula who will be making Wolf's 6.5 Grendel steel-case and he estimates that it's two months out before it arrives in-country in bulk.

John

P.S. Oops! I noticed that Gunwriter, in his opening post, already noted that it should ship 2nd quarter.

Yes but hearing it from the man himself makes it even more exciting!!

Lars and I met with Bill, Steve & Debra Satern for some time actually. All of this is confirmed. We can only hope that import stuff and all that crap goes smoothly. Having this ammo is a great thing!!

I would like to see some pictures. Thats of the the ammo guys.... I DONT wanna see Oldjoe or Variable in the "foreplay" mode. I found some SHOT show pictures on gunblast but no Grendel stuff yet.

HM, there were no samples of Wolf 65G steel-case at SHOT. I, too, would have loved to have seen photos.

John

Phoned Bill last night before he had to run off to another meeting, but he met with the Russians from Tula who will be making Wolf's 6.5 Grendel steel-case and he estimates that it's two months out before it arrives in-country in bulk.
Two months has passed. Any status report?

Just looked on Wolf's website, and they have 110 FMJ in thier polyformance section. looks like our hopes are that much closer to reality. Its listed as having a bimetal projectile with berdan primer. Can't find a price yet, but i'm sure its cheaper than the Gold ammo we've been buying.

That should be interesting. Probably a great round for the Tactical models too.

I just hope it's more accurate than a 12 gauge!

Just looked on Wolf's website, and they have 110 FMJ in thier polyformance section. looks like our hopes are that much closer to reality. Its listed as having a bimetal projectile with berdan primer. Can't find a price yet, but i'm sure its cheaper than the Gold ammo we've been buying.

Sweet!

By the way, my understanding is that it was going to be a copper-plated steel jacket and standard lead core. That's basically two metals; is that what they mean by "bimetal"?

Even though it's modeled after the concept of the 5.45 7N6 (I call the 6.5 Grendel version the "6N5"!) it was going to be more a civvie version with only lead and not the military version with a steel insert ahead of a lead core like the military 5.45 7N6.

John

By the way, my understanding is that it was going to be a copper-plated steel jacket and standard lead core. That's basically two metals; is that what they mean by "bimetal"?
I think that's correct, but don't know for sure.
Even though it's modeled after the concept of the 5.45 7N6 (I call the 6.5 Grendel version the "6N5"!)
6N5, eh? Cute. :cool:
...it was going to be more a civvie version with only lead and not the military version with a steel insert ahead of a lead core like the military 5.45 7N6.
I doubt that steel-core ammo would be legal for import. IIRC, the Chinese steel-core 7.62x39 was banned.

P.S. There used to be a photo on the web showing sectioned 7.62x39 civilian bullets. I tried to link to it, but it appears to not be there anymore. The thumbnail pic can still be seen, though. If you image google "7.62x39 bullets" it should be the second photo displayed. The Wolf round is fourth from the left. HU-U-U-U-GE air cavity in the nose! If the Wolf 6.5 FMJ has a similar air pocket, it might "tumble" quickly after impact.

Upon looking more closely at Wolf's Website listing, they list the jacket as "bimetal." So that would mean they're referring to the copper-plated steel jacket.

John

I dunno. I looked back again myself, and some of the rounds have bimetal and copper listed jackets. However the Grendel has just bimetal listed. Kinda hard to say, since I thought bimetal meant copper and another alloy combined. What else could they use in a jacket that to be considered an FMJ?

You know, that is a good point. Others jackets are listed as both bimetal and copper. Is it just a typo? We'll have to get to the bottom of this. . . .

John

I'm sure you have it right, John. Expect the tougher bimetal (copper-plated steel) to be used for FMJ bullets, which don't have to expand, and softer copper jackets for hollowpoints, which do need to expand.

The Russki companies don't seem to be using "bimetal" in the same technical sense that U.S. engineers do. Here such jackets are called gilding metal clad steel.

OK, I talked with Bill and I think I have the story straight:

1. All the jackets should be listed as only "bimetal," meaning steel jackets with a thin copper wash. That's the only kind of jacket Wolf makes in that line of bullets. The fact that some are listed as "bimetal, copper" is basically a typo from salesmen and secretaries typing this stuff up and not knowing the technical details.

2. Now, the technical details: The Wolf 6.5 Grendel 110 FMJ bullet has, for all intents and purposes, a steel jacket (thickness is 0.025"). The only reason a very thin, almost molecular thickness of copper is plated to the steel jacket is simply to keep the steel from rusting. Other than rust, this type of steel jacket does great as a jacket material.

John

I'm sure you have it right, John. Expect the tougher bimetal (copper-plated steel) to be used for FMJ bullets, which don't have to expand, and softer copper jackets for hollowpoints, which do need to expand.

The Russki companies don't seem to be using "bimetal" in the same technical sense that U.S. engineers do. Here such jackets are called gilding metal clad steel.

Gilding metal is a copper alloy, comprising 95% copper and 5% zinc. Technically, it is a form of brass.

Gilding metal is used for various purposes, including the jackets of bullets, driving bands on some artillery shells[1], as well as enameled badges and other jewelery.

I get from what you're saying is that steel jacket may be coated with a gilding metal.

Joe

Grendelizer-
Bill didn't happen to let you in on how soon the 110gr stuff will be avialible, did he? :D

Nope, I don't think even he knows the exact date. It iss in zee hands of zee Russians!

John

Gilding metal is a copper alloy, comprising 95% copper and 5% zinc.

I get from what you're saying is that steel jacket may be coated with a gilding metal.
That was what I wrongly concluded based on the info in John's earlier posts. However, this post ( http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41925&postcount=30 ) of his jogged my memory, giving me a faint recall of reading a few years ago -- on a Russian website, I think -- that they use "bimetal" to describe copper-washed steel.

Nope, I don't think even he knows the exact date. It iss in zee hands of zee Russians!
Based on the experience with Wolf brass-cased ammo http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38010&postcount=7
I predict the steel-cased stuff will be available April 1st, 2009. :rolleyes: :D

That was what I wrongly concluded based on the info in John's earlier posts. However, this post ( http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41925&postcount=30 ) of his jogged my memory, giving me a faint recall of reading a few years ago -- on a Russian website, I think -- that they use "bimetal" to describe copper-washed steel.

That would be correct terminology also because the jacket is two different metals.

I did find this on a website about small arms ammunition of Russia and the Soviet Union:



the standard 7.62mm M43 bullet has been replaced by a cylindrical bullet, made of mild steel, and fitted with a brass driving band at the front. This cartridge was adopted circa 1983 by the KGB and Spetsnaz elements of the Soviet Army. The round is the 7.62x42 SP-4 which is a semi auto pistol believe it or not. They had some really clandestine stuff. But anyways we see where this bimetallic bullet is not the steel copper washed stuff.

Joe

OK, I talked with Bill and I think I have the story straight:

1. All the jackets should be listed as only "bimetal," meaning steel jackets with a thin copper wash. That's the only kind of jacket Wolf makes in that line of bullets. The fact that some are listed as "bimetal, copper" is basically a typo from salesmen and secretaries typing this stuff up and not knowing the technical details.

2. Now, the technical details: The Wolf 6.5 Grendel 110 FMJ bullet has, for all intents and purposes, a steel jacket (thickness is 0.025"). The only reason a very thin, almost molecular thickness of copper is plated to the steel jacket is simply to keep the steel from rusting. Other than rust, this type of steel jacket does great as a jacket material.

John


That's pretty bad news for me. Most ranges in Southern California do not allow bullets with steel in them due to perceived fire hazard. If they catch with Wolf ammo with bimetal jacket: off the range you go.

ILya

I guess ya can't please everyone...

If they catch you with Wolf ammo with bimetal jacket: off the range you go.

Does that include Wolf .223?

If it makes them feel any better, technically speaking, it is coated with copper.

John

Does that include Wolf .223?

If it makes them feel any better, technically speaking, it is coated with copper.

John

223, 7.62x39, etc. If there is steel in the bullet it is a major no-no.

The part I do not get is that Wolf does make copper jacketed bullets in other calibers. Why not 6.5?

ILya

Could be its because the 6.5 hasn't been around very long. They have 6 different loadings for the 7.62x39, which has been around since the 40's/50's. Perhaps if the 6.5 proves to be equally popular, they'll add more loadings for it. Personally, i think that having them come out with 3 loadings for a round thats only been on the market 5 years or so, is pretty good. Call/email them and see if they'll add a loading in steel case that doesn't have steel in the projectile.

Could be its because the 6.5 hasn't been around very long. They have 6 different loadings for the 7.62x39, which has been around since the 40's/50's.
I beg to differ with this comment. If you are referring to the 6.5 Grendel, then OK. But the 6.5 (.264) round has been around for quite a while. The Japs new the ballistic benefits of the 6.5 long ago. As well as the Swede's. The 6.5 bullet has been used in military configuration for a long time. The 6.5 Carcano is another round that was used very efficiently by militaries.

European countries have been making use of the 6.5 bullet for hunting situations for generations, so to say it hasn't been around very long is not correct. It is true that the Grendel is still in its infancy, and that is why the brass is so hard to find. Bullets are however no problem to find.

I beg to differ with this comment. If you are referring to the 6.5 Grendel, then OK. But the 6.5 (.264) round has been around for quite a while. The Japs new the ballistic benefits of the 6.5 long ago. As well as the Swede's. The 6.5 bullet has been used in military configuration for a long time. The 6.5 Carcano is another round that was used very efficiently by militaries.

European countries have been making use of the 6.5 bullet for hunting situations for generations, so to say it hasn't been around very long is not correct. It is true that the Grendel is still in its infancy, and that is why the brass is so hard to find. Bullets are however no problem to find.

ummm i think he ment the factories that produce for wolf have been producing 7.62x39 since the 40's. it would make sense that they would make ammo marketed as cheap blasting ammo exactly the same as its other cheap blasting ammo. of couse you could always pull the bullets and replace them with more range friendly copper jacket bullets.

god it must suck to live in california, but i wouldnt know because i have this strange aversion to environments that can instantly turn into blazing infernos. just sayn.

Phoned Bill last night before he had to run off to another meeting, but he met with the Russians from Tula who will be making Wolf's 6.5 Grendel steel-case and he estimates that it's two months out before it arrives in-country in bulk.
Three months has now passed. Do you know where your Wolf steel-case FMJ ammo is? :D

Any update on this?

I talked with Bill Filbert of Wolf at SHOT Show; same story, he's committed to it and it will happen eventually.

John

I talked with Bill Filbert of Wolf at SHOT Show; same story, he's committed to it and it will happen eventually. John

John:

Would like to see what he comes up with in terms of design. So far with me -- not so good. Mine have decent enough accuracy for combat purposes to 300 but no where near as good as a 120 - 125.

LR1955

thanks for the update man!!!

Based on the experience with Wolf brass-cased ammo http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38010&postcount=7
I predict the steel-cased stuff will be available April 1st, 2009. :rolleyes: :D
Although a year ago I was accused by some members of being too pessimistic, it's looking like I may instead have been unduly optimistic in predicting the Wolf FMJ ammo would get here April 1st! :eek:

I've seen automobiles go quicker from concept to production.


Medic...out!

Does that include Wolf .223?

If it makes them feel any better, technically speaking, it is coated with copper.

John


Doesn't matter. Go find a dirt/gravel road out in the boonies some time where nobody is around and shoot it at night with some copper plated steel jacket ammo.

I did it last summer shooting at rabbits in nebraska with my M1 garand ( :D ) using M2 ball (fmj with the copper-plated steel jacket) and got nice little showers of sparks with each shot. I thought I had a box of incindiaries mixed in with my 500 rnd case for a moment.

If you have dry leaves/grass on the range and some rough dirt or fine gravel in your backstop you could maybe start something smoldering. Small chance, but it's bound to happen eventually.

Doesn't matter. Go find a dirt/gravel road out in the boonies some time where nobody is around and shoot it at night with some copper plated steel jacket ammo.

I did it last summer shooting at rabbits in nebraska with my M1 garand ( :D ) using M2 ball (fmj with the copper-plated steel jacket) and got nice little showers of sparks with each shot. I thought I had a box of incindiaries mixed in with my 500 rnd case for a moment.

If you have dry leaves/grass on the range and some rough dirt or fine gravel in your backstop you could maybe start something smoldering. Small chance, but it's bound to happen eventually.

You tend to see that a lot with bad guys shooting AK's. Kind of reduces the effectiveness of the flash hider.

Not trying to hijack the thread but I have to ask the question. Can steel jacketed bullets cause barrel damage? Anybody have any knowledge or at least an opinion?

Not trying to hijack the thread but I have to ask the question. Can steel jacketed bullets cause barrel damage? Anybody have any knowledge or at least an opinion?

Someone (don't recall who or when) was telling me that steel was actually easier on the chamber than brass. It had something to do with brass being a softer metal and abrasives "sticking" to it and carrying those abrasive materials in and out of the chamber. Steel being harder, doesn't attract or carry those same abrasive materials into the chamber apparently... I don't know if this is correct, but it sounds plausible.

Does anyone else have an opinion or can anyone verify the information above? :confused:

I believe they put a copper wash or coating on the steel bullet jacket, to prevent barrel damage. Any experts out there?

John

I believe they put a copper wash or coating on the steel bullet jacket, to prevent barrel damage. Any experts out there?

Johni believe they use steel jackets because steel is cheaper than copper.
i believe they use a copper wash as rust preventative (like galvanizing).

BTW, your german accent is zehr gutt, herr Obersturmbannführer :D.

I believe they put the copper wash on the bullet to prevent it from rusting. The steel jacket is softer then the barrel metal. I would imagine barrel wear would be more then the copper alloys we have in hunting bullets.

joe

I found this to be interesting http://www.superiorbarrels.com/FAQs.htm , and even downright scary. Anybody shoot enough of this stuff to see any of these claims at that web sight?

Anybody shoot enough of this stuff to see any of these claims at that web sight?
oh cool, the counter-forensic bullet.
look ma, no tool marks!

I believe they put the copper wash on the bullet to prevent it from rusting. The steel jacket is softer then the barrel metal. I would imagine barrel wear would be more then the copper alloys we have in hunting bullets. joe

O.J.:

Bottom line is this. What is harder -- steel or the copper alloy used for jackets? Which ever one is harder will wear out a barrel faster.

Also. does that former Soviet Union bullet use a steel core with the steel jacket that is copper washed? The core also takes part in the equation.

LR1955

O.J.:

Bottom line is this. What is harder -- steel or the copper alloy used for jackets? Which ever one is harder will wear out a barrel faster.

Also. does that former Soviet Union bullet use a steel core with the steel jacket that is copper washed? The core also takes part in the equation.

LR1955

LR, why does the core have anything to do with bbl wear if it doesn't touch the bore? Something to do with the lead compressing as the jacket gets imprinted by the lands?

I found this to be interesting http://www.superiorbarrels.com/FAQs.htm , and even downright scary. Anybody shoot enough of this stuff to see any of these claims at that web sight?

I shot a bunch of Wolf years ago doing 3 gun matches. I never really saw any degradation of the accuracy of my AR. Then again I wasn't bench rest shooting either. The biggest complaint back then about the Wolf was the laquer coated case. Some thought it would melt into your chamber. I never had problems with it but I always cleaned my rilfe very good after a match. I would use spray carb cleaner in the chamber. I don't know if most average shooters would see any abnormal wear but I could be wrong.

Wolf introduced steel case 6.5mm Grendel at SHOT today [02-03-2008].

They brought out a 110 grain FMJ-BT load. Projectile design is supposed to be along the lines of the 5.45x39mm 7N6 with the air pocket in the nose. Muzzle velocity is listed as 2,620 fps.
What's the official status of this loading? Indefinite delay? Permanently canceled? Or what? Anybody know?

What's the official status of this loading? Indefinite delay? Permanently canceled? Or what? Anybody know?
Haven't heard. I'd like to find the FMJ bullets they were using.