There is a pallet of MPT in the shop now!

The Wolf MPT arrive late today at our shop, Not even opened any and looked at it yet. I will be getting pictures ready for tommorow and will probably be at the range over the weekend. I doubt Melissa will let me goof off testing regardless of the weather. Will get Mv and Bc if at all possible and some accuracy testing.

120 grain BTHP and I know that this stuff hold supersonic out to 1000m from the tests the Serbs ran.

Bill Alexander

Fricken right on!! So is this just the test stuff and then you need to OK it and then they produce it, or is this the stuff you will sell? I am running all 120gr fodder in mine cause it seems to like it.

by pallet i hope he means there is enough to SELL some....or i can just meet you at the range this weekend to help test it out Bill :D

This is a 25,000 round pallet from the first twelve that arrived. The run is shorter until I get the stuff approved but this is not likely to be a problem.

If I do not get get tied down at the shop with preping bolts for phosphate on Monday I will probably hit the range at Blacksburg.

Bill Alexander

This is a 25,000 round pallet from the first twelve that arrived. The run is shorter until I get the stuff approved but this is not likely to be a problem.

If I do not get get tied down at the shop with preping bolts for phosphate on Monday I will probably hit the range at Blacksburg.

Bill Alexander

ahh crap...i thought u meant this weekend....i got classes and a Cell Bio lab till 5 on monday...oh well....we have to run in to one another eventually

and this is the steel cased stuff, right?

and this is the steel cased stuff, right?


seems like the steel cased was going to be 110 grain.

Interesting.
Will the price be about the same as the Wolf hunting ammo?

I did mean to get to the range this weekend.

The bolts are going to phosphate on Monday

Brass case, same price as hunting ammo

Bill Alexander

seems like the steel cased was going to be 110 grain.
Okay, I am a little confused.
Is Wolf going to be offering brass 120MPT *and* steel cased 110 grain?

Bill, put me down for a couple of boxes of the 120. I want to see if my grendel likes it. If it does, put me down for a few cases.

Steel-cased 110-grain FMJ.

Here are the photos, the ammo tested out well. Good pressure and interestingly these are only running 40 to 50 FPS slower than factory 123 Scenar ammunition from the 14.5" carbine I used for the cycle testing. Mv is 2400 fps average from this gun while the 123 Scenars are just under 2450 fps. The projectile is 1.165" long with a 9 degree boat tail 0.175" long and a semi torpedo base. Ogive is a little blunt at 7.5 diameters and the meplat is 0.078" diameter. Preliminary shooting indicates a Bc of 0.480 but this will need refining with more work over longer ranges. The section shows the Wolf in the centre the projectile above is the 120 Berger while that below is the 120 SMK. It is notable that the core is finished in the same manner as the Sierra but the boat tail is both longer and a better angle. Also note the very thick heavy base. Preliminary shots into the ballistic test tubes are awaiting sectioning, the projectile or part of it did exit from the tube completely.

We do know that the round will remain happily supersonic to 1000m from a 20" barrel from work that the Serbs were doing. Accuracy is happily around the 1" mark and does stay there for long strings of shots. I ran two guns to check out the fouling and while there is a little copper fouling it is nothing like the 123 grain SP loading. Powder fouling from +500 rounds was very acceptable on the carbine. Fairly light and powdery it was evedent mainly on the bolt and easily removed by wiping. The brass cases continue to improve and these are the best yet. Primers are large rifle.

Ammunition will be available as of Monday

Bill Alexander

I might have to score some of this. My CSS 6.5G 22" seems to like the 120gr loads I have tested, so I will be interested in this. Shall we call up monday to order or do we need to wait a few days?

Thanks Bill!

I'll call Melissa tomorrow morning and order a thousand to try them out!
:D

We do know that the round will remain happily supersonic to 1000m from a 20" barrel from work that the Serbs were doing. Accuracy is happily around the 1" mark and does stay there for long strings of shots. I ran two guns to check out the fouling and while there is a little copper fouling it is nothing like the 123 grain SP loading. Powder fouling from +500 rounds was very acceptable on the carbine. Fairly light and powdery it was evedent mainly on the bolt and easily removed by wiping. The brass cases continue to improve and these are the best yet. Primers are large rifle. Ammunition will be available as of Monday. Bill Alexander

Bill:

No offense but what standards are the Serbs using to get supersonic speeds at 1100 yards from a .480 bullet at a top MV of about 2500 fps (extrapolated for a 20" barrel)?

LR1955

A little on the company that makes the bullets and brass spoken of here. I was on their website and noticed right off the bat the bullet is stated as "copper". So indeed they do use either a copper or more copper alloy jacket then most manufacturers. That explains the jacket fouling with their earlier 6.5 ammo. Sounds like they made have made some changes to this new bullet. Barnes has had the copper fouling problem for a while back. They made changes also.

...what standards are the Serbs using to get supersonic speeds at 1100 yards from a .480 bullet at a top MV of about 2500 fps (extrapolated for a 20" barrel)?
Out of curiosity I ran those numbers and got the following:

Range -- yds _000 _100 _200 _300 _400 _500 _600 _700 _800 _900 1000
Velocity - fps 2500 2323 2154 1992 1838 1691 1555 1430 1317 1220 1139

1000 yards was max range of the ballistics calculator I used, but it looks like the Wolf 120 MPT might be supersonic at 1000 meters.

A little on the company that makes the bullets and brass spoken of here. I was on their website and noticed right off the bat the bullet is stated as "copper".
Possibly that should not be taken literally. It is common usage to use the term "copper jackets" in reference to gilding metal jackets.

Just going by appearance in Bill's photo, it looks to me as if the Wolf jacket is more the color of brass, compared to the copper color of the Sierra.

Possibly that should not be taken literally. It is common usage to use the term "copper jackets" in reference to gilding metal jackets.

Just going by appearance in Bill's photo, it looks to me as if the Wolf jacket is more the color of brass, compared to the copper color of the Sierra.

The first Wolf batch we got did look more copper. You could a big difference in color between the bullet and the case. Most companies will say "gilding" metal for the bullet jacket. Barnes says copper. Most only use alloy if it's not one single pure metal. That's what I think anyways.

Out of curiosity I ran those numbers and got the following:
Range -- yds _000 _100 _200 _300 _400 _500 _600 _700 _800 _900 1000
Velocity - fps 2500 2323 2154 1992 1838 1691 1555 1430 1317 1220 1139
1000 yards was max range of the ballistics calculator I used, but it looks like the Wolf 120 MPT might be supersonic at 1000 meters.

Stan:

Sure -- that is what ballistics calculators say. I thought I would try some 168 Sierras at 1000 some time ago. I was getting somewhere around 2920 fps from a 30 inch barrel. I think the 168 Sierras are .460. Subsonic in a big way at 1000 despite what two ballistics programs said they should be. Probably had significant yaw past 600 or when in the transonic zone. They shot fantastically well at 600 though.

The design of the bullet in question is very conventional. If you want to really reduce drag -- you do it on the tip and ogive. Then the boat tail if you have any room left in terms of bullet length. This one has a large meplat and a standard ogive for the bullet length. Nothing extraordinary and the velocity is nothing extraordinary so I bring up my question.

However it appears to be an excellent compromise between poor shooting hunting ammo and two dollar a shot VLD ammo. If it works -- it will certainly sell.

LR1955

Talked to Melissa this morning and yes, it is true, they are actually going to be shipping this ammo out this week! I added three boxes onto my order to have it kicking around and to try out.

how much are they going for?

Yes, (1) how much? And (2) what would I use a MPT bullet for?

hm2,

#2 - Beer cans and Arfcoms :eek: :D

Jeff

I like shooting at (empty) beer cans and (full) water jugs. But I missed the post telling me what kinda downrange performance to expect from the MPT. Ok on cyotes? How about deer at 150 yards? And pigs? Cant be for paper punching if it's from wolf.

Same price as the other WOLF and the bullet looks like a 120gr SMK, so I would assume similar uses, but I would doubt the same consistency of weight and tolerances. Just a speculation there though as I really don't know for sure. The SMK's I think have a better ogive shape though so better performance at long range.

anyone know if you can fire a 6.5 grendel using a 7.62x39 bolt, or 7.62 using a grendel bolt? i know the measurements are very similiar, just wondering if its possible.

anyone know if you can fire a 6.5 grendel using a 7.62x39 bolt, or 7.62 using a grendel bolt? i know the measurements are very similiar, just wondering if its possible.

The case head size for both 7.62x39 Russian and 6.5 Grendel are the same, and thus bolts sized for one can, theoretically, be interchanged with one another.

However, because of inconsistent quality found in 7.62x39 AR bolts, Bill Alexander will not certify these bolts for use with the 6.5 Grendel. He only uses bolts manufactured to his own specifications for his 6.5 Grendel and .50 Beowulf products.

You can certainly ignore his stipulation, and go ahead and use 7.62x39 AR bolts at your own risk, but the worry is that, on average, they will not handle the increased chamber pressures and bolt thrust of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge versus the 7.62x39. Having said that, you might get lucky and a 7.62x39 bolt might work just fine.

Alexander Arms' 6.5 Grendel bolts are also optimum for use with 7.62x39 in an AR. This is because AA uses a better steel alloy and heat-treat method, along with incremental tweaks to the geometry. Finally, AA's bolts are recessed to .136", rather than the 5.56 standard of .125", which allows for a stronger extractor claw when mated to the thicker case rims of both 7.62x39 and 6.5 Grendel.

AA's bolt costs, I think, about $67. I don't know the price on a 7.62x39 bolt, but I don't imagine they're priced that much better. Unless you already have the other bolt or you have a barrel already head-spaced on a 7.62x39 bolt with a .125" recess, I recommend the AA bolt.

John

Can anyone tell me of a recent bolt failure of any brand?

7.62x39 bolts can be found for about $10 cheaper..the DPMS and OLympic ones to be exact.

CSS still manufactures their LW barrels and with 7.62x39 bolts so would you think a company would do that if the bolts were seriously hazardous?

Here we go again... ;)

Can we start another bolt thread? PLEASE???? I miss the discussion SO much!!!

Hellcat

To answer you question more correctly you can put a 7.62x39 bolt in an AA rifle if you deepen the chamber .011 of an inch. Going the other way of putting an AA bolt in a rifle that had the regular 7.62x39 bolt is more complicate to do correctly, BUT you can adjust your sizer die to compensate for the increased .011 headspace.

It boils down to will Ford warrant their car if you put a Chevy engine in it, or visa versa?

Curly....John started it, if you can't say anything good about a standard 7.62 bolt, don't say anything at all, especially to run it down like it's guaranteed to blow your rifle.

As an aside, the 6.8 rifles are running 7.62 bolts and contrary to popular believe there's not much difference in bolt thrust between it and the Grendel especiall considering the 6.8 runs a much higher pressure. Don't hear much about 6.8's breaking bolts.

Boy, everybodies sure touchy about the bolt issue!:D


As the guy who kept track of broken bolts for months, let me just say that it is much ado about nothing, or perhaps better said, much ado about almost nothing!

I was able to document fewer than 10 bolt failures of any kind. The failures happened with both AA and 7.62 bolts in essentially even numbers. EVERY single broken bolt happened with handloads, the majority at levels above recommended loadings, while 2 were unsure, and one was loaded at the suggested level. HOWEVER, every broken bolt happened with handloads!

I think Grendelizers description of WHY Bill Alexander chose to have his own bolt made and specified is accurate. The main thought was that the consistency from bolt to bolt of the 7.62 bolts was suspect.

That said, I KNOW that some 7.62 bolts (OldJoe has one) have run satifactorily for MANY, MANY rounds.

So, to close this rather lengthy post:

You can use a 7.62 bolt, AS LONG AS IT IS HEADSPACED CORRECTLY with the barrel you are using. Buy the best quality bolt you can find, (I think OldJoe posted some information on that.) There is a POTENTIALLY higher risk of bolt failure but that risk has NOT been 100% validated in anyone's controlled experiments that I am aware of.

ALL AR15 bolts fail eventually. The military swaps the .223 bolts at something less than 10,000 rounds. I have well over 1000 rounds on my AA bolt, and I think OldJoe has more on his 7.62.

Bolts in AR15's are not designed nor expected to last forever, just some reasonable time.

Everyone please remember we don't need to discuss this same issue another time.

Bill

Boy, everybodies sure touchy about the bolt issue!:D


As the guy who kept track of broken bolts for months, let me just say that it is much ado about nothing, or perhaps better said, much ado about almost nothing!

I was able to document fewer than 10 bolt failures of any kind. The failures happened with both AA and 7.62 bolts in essentially even numbers. EVERY single broken bolt happened with handloads, the majority at levels above recommended loadings, while 2 were unsure, and one was loaded at the suggested level. HOWEVER, every broken bolt happened with handloads!

I think Grendelizers description of WHY Bill Alexander chose to have his own bolt made and specified is accurate. The main thought was that the consistency from bolt to bolt of the 7.62 bolts was suspect.

That said, I KNOW that some 7.62 bolts (OldJoe has one) have run satifactorily for MANY, MANY rounds.

So, to close this rather lengthy post:

You can use a 7.62 bolt, AS LONG AS IT IS HEADSPACED CORRECTLY with the barrel you are using. Buy the best quality bolt you can find, (I think OldJoe posted some information on that.) There is a POTENTIALLY higher risk of bolt failure but that risk has NOT been 100% validated in anyone's controlled experiments that I am aware of.

ALL AR15 bolts fail eventually. The military swaps the .223 bolts at something less than 10,000 rounds. I have well over 1000 rounds on my AA bolt, and I think OldJoe has more on his 7.62.

Bolts in AR15's are not designed nor expected to last forever, just some reasonable time.

Everyone please remember we don't need to discuss this same issue another time.

Bill

Well said Bill and as it should have been said "without bias".

Thanks
Joe

Geez, keeping stuff on topic around here is turning into a full time job!:D

OK, this thread is about the MPT ammo, not bolts or anything else, and I apologize about answering anything else here, since I am at fault also.

I have started a new thread about the 6.8 operating pressures and added Grendelizers questions and OldJoes answer.

That thread can be found in the General section, since it really isn't pertinent to the Grendel.

Please try to keep it on topic.:)

Bill

Bill:

No offense but what standards are the Serbs using to get supersonic speeds at 1100 yards from a .480 bullet at a top MV of about 2500 fps (extrapolated for a 20" barrel)?

LR1955

That is a very valid question. I have no reason to doubt their engineers but equally no reason to just take the information as correct. It might be prudent to shoot a few out to range to verify.

I will check the barrel length and Mv they were using and verify from our own guns. Again the data might be correct but the translation might be lacking.

Bill Alexander

Bill,
Is this ammo being shipped out this week? And just curious how much of it is left?

That is a very valid question. I have no reason to doubt their engineers but equally no reason to just take the information as correct. It might be prudent to shoot a few out to range to verify. I will check the barrel length and Mv they were using and verify from our own guns. Again the data might be correct but the translation might be lacking. Bill Alexander

Alexander:

After all of this -- you remain sane?

An extraordinary achievement from what I have read over the last couple of years on this forum.

Really guys -- this is a statement of sanity in an environment where guys can become insane really quickly.

LR1955

Got to be the beer! :o :p :D :D

Jeff

I got three boxes of the new ammo today!! WUHOOOO!!! I think I might just be the first reported case of New Ammo Syndrome! HAHA!! It looks good too. Interested to see how it shoots. Not sure when I will get to the range, but I will post pix and report when I do and compare it to the 120grSMK handloads I have ready to roll.

I got three boxes of the new ammo today!! WUHOOOO!!! I think I might just be the first reported case of New Ammo Syndrome! HAHA!! It looks good too. Interested to see how it shoots. Not sure when I will get to the range, but I will post pix and report when I do and compare it to the 120grSMK handloads I have ready to roll.


Yeah, maybe I'll be making keyrings out of your fired brass.

When I get a chance (soon), I'm going to chrono this ammo through my 10.5", 14.5", and 19.5" rigs. I'll post the data here as soon as I get it.

Side Question: Is there any kind of consensus on what distance from the muzzle the velocity should best be measured? I'll be using an Alpha Master Shooting Chrony ( I know, not an Oehler, but you use what ya' got... :) ) I can chrony at the house, so if I get time I'll freeze some, and heat some too.

so... What distance from the muzzle do you guys want the chrony? :)

When I get a chance (soon), I'm going to chrono this ammo through my 10.5", 14.5", and 19.5" rigs. I'll post the data here as soon as I get it.

Side Question: Is there any kind of consensus on what distance from the muzzle the velocity should best be measured? I'll be using an Alpha Master Shooting Chrony ( I know, not an Oehler, but you use what ya' got... :) ) I can chrony at the house, so if I get time I'll freeze some, and heat some too.

so... What distance from the muzzle do you guys want the chrony? :)


Just make sure you are far enough away from the muzzle to not pick up the muzzle flash. This happens mostly with magnum rifles with slow burning powders. When I do my cast loads I have mine about six feet from the muzzle. Did I read somewhere the gun rags usually set it at ten?

Just make sure you are far enough away from the muzzle to not pick up the muzzle flash. This happens mostly with magnum rifles with slow burning powders. When I do my cast loads I have mine about six feet from the muzzle. Did I read somewhere the gun rags usually set it at ten?

Yeah, to be on the safe side with the 10.5" barrel I'd probably better go past the 6ft. mark from the muzzle. I've used 7ft., 9ft., even 15ft. for various guns, and I've seen various distances listed in the magazines too. I didn't know if there was any recognized standard so I figured I'd better ask since this data would be intended for community consumption. :) So maybe I've got one vote for 10ft.? (sounds fine to me :) ), any other votes or opinions?

Always done mine at 10'.

Jeff

I might try and reload the brass, but I still have that other brass with the oversize primer pockets and have to make up a batch of keychains soon! Smartass...

I might try and reload the brass, but I still have that other brass with the oversize primer pockets and have to make up a batch of keychains soon! Smartass...


Moe...damn it, there I go again...Curly I'd prefer my keyring with a tighter primer pocket. :p :D

I like shooting at (empty) beer cans and (full) water jugs. But I missed the post telling me what kinda downrange performance to expect from the MPT. Ok on cyotes? How about deer at 150 yards? And pigs? Cant be for paper punching if it's from wolf.

hm2C:

Looking at the projo that was sectioned -- unless the core was locked to the jacket I figure you can expect it to perform more like a Match King than a hunting bullet.

I am sure it would kill either animal at 150 yards but perhaps a better idea may be the 123 grain soft point even though its accuracy is suspect.

BTW -- I am getting great results with a 120 grain bullet I am making. After this one proves to work safely with the Grendel and commercial bullets, then to work on a bullet that I believe will meet MPF safely from the Grendel using commercial powders.

LR1955

I bought 500 rds of the 120's today for the DPMS match.. not sure I'll get it in time for a quick sight in, but it should be a lot better ammo than the Wolf 123's

hm2C:

Looking at the projo that was sectioned -- unless the core was locked to the jacket I figure you can expect it to perform more like a Match King than a hunting bullet.

I am sure it would kill either animal at 150 yards but perhaps a better idea may be the 123 grain soft point even though its accuracy is suspect.

BTW -- I am getting great results with a 120 grain bullet I am making. After this one proves to work safely with the Grendel and commercial bullets, then to work on a bullet that I believe will meet MPF safely from the Grendel using commercial powders.


LR1955

Gene,

Does Sierra now lock the core of their Gamekings to the jacket now?

Joe

great news for a fence sitter like me.

great news for a fence sitter like me.
Come on in Sir, the water is truly fine. :)