Grendel at precision rifle match

[noone]

About seven months ago I used my Alexander Arms 19.5 inch Grendel (Shilen barrel) in a precision rifle match. These matches are sort of a cross between assault rifle, and civilian sniper rifle matches. Greatest distance for a target was 10 inch round steel plates at 500 yards. I was shooting against all sorts of bolt rifles made by known high end US, and European manufacturers. The scoring system is a combination of accuracy and speed. The Grendel served me well, and it won the match. Don't let anyone tell you that the Grendel lacks sufficient accuracy at distance. I know my Grendel made quite a few believers that day.

So far, I know of about 4 Grendel shooters at the Tri-county gun club in Oregon. If any other Oregon Grendel shooters are out there, please let us know.

[RStewart]

We hold our first Field Precision Rifle match here in Louisiana this weekend. I'll be shooting my AA Hunter against quit an array of other weapons platforms. I really like the G and believe I will be competitive. We'll be shooting 600 yards with a 3" X-Ring.

[LRS_Ranger]

Make that one more as of this week Noone... Hopefully I'll get a good load worked up this weekend...

[HANKA]

The Grendel served me well, and it won the match.

Being a bit modest, are we? I thought it was the anti-gunners who attributed intention to an inanimate object! ;)

Great shootin', man!

John

[pappy42]

Being a bit modest, are we? I thought it was the anti-gunners who attributed intention to an inanimate object! ;)

Great shootin', man!

John

Yep; equipment don't win matches, shooters do.

[LR1955]

We hold our first Field Precision Rifle match here in Louisiana this weekend. I'll be shooting my AA Hunter against quit an array of other weapons platforms. I really like the G and believe I will be competitive. We'll be shooting 600 yards with a 3" X-Ring.

RS:

What is the course of fire you guys use in that type of event?

LR1955

[RStewart]

RS:

What is the course of fire you guys use in that type of event?

LR1955

We do 3 strings of 20 rounds with 2 sighters each round. We have the rules posted on Snipers Hide under Tactical Competitions or I can PM them to you if you want to read them.
Rick

[warped]

Yep; equipment don't win matches, shooters do.

Yep, the loose nut behind the trigger is always the weak link.

[just joking about the loose nut] it is an old saying in some circles.

This was not directed at Al (pappy) we get along really well.

[pappy42]

Yep, the loose nut behind the trigger is always the weak link.

[just joking about the loose nut] it is an old saying in some circles.

This was not directed at Al (pappy) we get along really well.

At my age, the nut(s) is getting looser and looser. Sigh

[LR1955]

Yep, the loose nut behind the trigger is always the weak link. [just joking about the loose nut] it is an old saying in some circles. This was not directed at Al (pappy) we get along really well.

Warped / Pappy:

Not always. Only to a point. Guys too often blame themselves for poor performance and more often than not, it isn't them but their rifle / ammo / sighting system. Or, guys have unrealistic expectations from their equipment and when it fails them, they blame themselves instead of finding out why.

LR55

[warped]

I was speaking of knowledgeable shooters, such as you I and some of the others.

We both know when it is us, we also recognize when it is the rifle.

That takes experience, some shooters are far too impatient and that results in a false conclusion.

BTW give a call when you get the chance.

I do agree with you though.

Many times the rifle gets blamed for something that is the fault of optics, I have seen that far too often.

Even reticle designs can be a real problem, using cross hairs that obstruct the target is just one of the problems.

[pappy42]

I can afford and do have some top notch equipment. Does it automaticaly make me win matches? Nope! Still gotta be a SHOOTER.

[LR1955]

I can afford and do have some top notch equipment. Does it automaticaly make me win matches? Nope! Still gotta be a SHOOTER.

P42:

Absolutely. However, with the best gear for the specific purpose, a shooter knows it is him who either does well or not. Process of elimination. I have found with less experienced shooters that they normally blame poor performance on themselves when their gear really is a huge contributing factor. Surprisingly, even relatively inexperienced shooters can probably shoot better than the mechanical potential provided by a service grade barrel, cheap Russian ball ammo, and lousy sighting systems.

LR55

[pappy42]

P42:

Absolutely. However, with the best gear for the specific purpose, a shooter knows it is him who either does well or not. Process of elimination. I have found with less experienced shooters that they normally blame poor performance on themselves when their gear really is a huge contributing factor. Surprisingly, even relatively inexperienced shooters can probably shoot better than the mechanical potential provided by a service grade barrel, cheap Russian ball ammo, and lousy sighting systems.

LR55

LR,
You could shoot an airsoft rifle and beat most of us. You know you could take that "service grade barrel", ect. and outshoot a lot of folks with the best rifle made.

When you find that rifle that controls it's own trigger, reads wind and mirage, and instinctively knows when to hold'em and when to run'em; please buy it for me because I sure could use one.

[LR1955]

LR,
You could shoot an airsoft rifle and beat most of us. You know you could take that "service grade barrel", ect. and outshoot a lot of folks with the best rifle made.

When you find that rifle that controls it's own trigger, reads wind and mirage, and instinctively knows when to hold'em and when to run'em; please buy it for me because I sure could use one.

Pappy:

No, not that good and not getting much better.

Have seen way too many Soldiers blame themselves when the culprit is primarily a service grade (and normally trashed) carbine or A-2 firing 855 ball using dot sights or ACOGs that just don't work real well for the task.

No, they should'nt be issued a match grade carbine and ammo because that is the other extreme where they probably won't have the time, motivation, or ability to meet the mechanical potential of their gear. Would be a waste of money.

I guess it is a fine line between equipment and skill. Just that in more cases than otherwise, Joe could shoot his carbine or A-2 better than its mechanical potential (which is pretty poor by civilian standards) but they didn't know it. When that happens, not much you can do to convince him he is good. He has to see good and won't if his blaster / ammo combination shoots four or five minutes.

Got to go. If / when John and Bill set up a Training forum I can go into more detail. Right now I need to do some work with guys who are much better than their trashed A-2's.

LR1955

[noone]

A fair rifle, decent shooter, and lots of practice will almost always beat out a the best rifle possible, lousy shooter and no practice.

I'm fortunate that AA built me a great rifle. That rifle, and practicing makes a huge difference in my favor.

[pappy42]

I alwys enjoy hearing from you folks who are out there shooting and teaching.

[noone]

I still shoot quite a bit. Quit teaching a couple of years ago. I miss the teaching part. There is much I would like to pass on to someone, but few people have the time or dedication to put into learning it. And, there are some things that I just wouldn't teach anyone until I knew them really well. Just like when I was taking Jujutsu. They don't teach lower belts anything about breaking necks and similar things for a good reason. It took years before they started teaching me that stuff. It is the same with much regarding fighting with weapons as opposed to teaching simple marksmanship.

Marksmanship is something any responsible gun owner should learn. The real down and dirty fighting with a firearm simply isn't necessary for most people.

[RStewart]

There is much I would like to pass on to someone, but few people have the time or dedication to put into learning it. And, there are some things that I just wouldn't teach anyone until I knew them really well.
Marksmanship is something any responsible gun owner should learn. The real down and dirty fighting with a firearm simply isn't necessary for most people.

I was fortunate that when I started competitvely shooting F-Class, 2 High Masters took me under their wing to teach me. The first rule I learned was- Listen, ask questions, but your opionion doesn't matter. It wasn't meant to be rude, but that their time was limited and if someone felt they already "knew" what to do, they didn't spend the time with them. Though I have hunted since I was 6, they got me back to the basics. From proper position, to trigger squeezing (not pulling), to breaking the shot and reloading. Without their help I would have been "okay". With their help I have steadly advanced.

We recently started a Field Precision Rifle category and I proudly put my Grendel up against the .338 Lapuas and .308 and don't look back. It is the confidence born of putting into practice what others were willing to teach.

Sorry for the dissertation, but I am a firm believer in folks learning how to handle fireams properly and proficiently.

Rick

[noone]

Many asian people use the analogy of a cup of tea. The cup of tea represents your knowledge base. If you cup of tea (or knowledge base) is full, no one can put any more tea (or knowledge) into it. You must first empty your cup before anyone can put more into it. If you already think you know it all, your cup is full, and all the wisdom in the world will be lost if someone tries to teach you. Empty your cup first.

[mlmiller1]

I shot in a little "precision rifle match on training wheels" competition the last Sat in March. It was my first time shooting like this with my new to me grendel upper shooting untested ammo with a scope that had not been fired since it was mounted properly on this rifle. We(me & the grendel) came in 3rd out of 8 behind two guys that have done a fair amount of this sort of stuff. On was shooting a bolt 260 with a big US optics scope & the other a JP rifles 260 AR-10 with a 4500 bushnell. I was plenty excited to have done anywhere near that well, even though I was a distant 3rd. Smallest target was a 4" circle at 100 & we shot at 6" diamonds, 12" diamonds, 10" circle, a small (approx 8") round topped popper, & a full size ipsc steel at distances varying from 100yds to 500yds. The targets out in the open weren't too bad with the wind but the one at 500 was right up against a dirt "wall" & the wind was playing funny tricks with that one. The 12" diamond at 445 was pretty cool, also, when I nailed it with my first shot!

They scored it time plus penalties for each varying distance, changing targets stage. Each target never hit was worth 20 added seconds. Each one not shot at added uhhh, can't remember, a bunch I'd say. hahaha. 20 plus the 20 for the miss? Something like that. Anyway, it was fun! 4 stages, 5-6 targets each stage.

MLM

[bwaites]

MLM,

What load/loads did you shoot?

There, not it is in the right thread!! :)

[mlmiller1]

BWaites,

I topped my mags with Black Hills gold 123 smk but two down in the mag, I went to the AA 120 BT Nosler rounds. I was afraid I would run out of the AA before the match was over, thus the BH for closer targets. Worked ok until I changed a mag mid stage. Hmm, wonder how the BH will hit compared to the AA???? hahahaha. Oh well, best laid plans of mice & men, right? Anyway, it worked out. I was safe, had fun & did ok. Pretty succesful day overall. I found out the grendel, even us unprepared as it (& I ) was for this match, can stand up with the bigger guns ok, at least to 500yds.

There was a 25-06, a 6.8spc, a 223(he had tough time at 500), a 308, HMMM, & a 7mm mag, maybe? Not sure & we were all newbies except the two guys that set it up & of course also won. This was a sort of introductory match to get us all hooked. I think it worked! hahaha.

Thanks for asking!

Mark

[bwaites]

Those kinds of matches are fun, of course it helps if you have plenty of the same ammo! LOL:)

I would have expected the 6.8 guy to have problems, even more than the .223 guy, but a lot of .223 success at long range is bullet dependent.

Have fun, shoot well!

[mlmiller1]

The 6.8 guy did have trouble, now that you mention it, but only at the longest distances & then only when the wind got up pretty good. He just knew when to quit. It was sort of strange as he had a forward mounted handle. Used that to monopod off of. Did pretty well considering the wind & the instability of doing it that way. He had a bipod but didn't want to put it on for some reason???????

The 223 guy empted a mag at the 500yd target. You could have numbered a clock with his hits. I bet he shot 12rds & each one hit a different spot around that target. It was weird. Then when he was out of rounds, he still had one target left he didn't engage. Big penalties! He was shooting factory 55gr. by the way. He actually thought it was a bench rest type of match & he had his F class single shot "artillery piece" with him but when he saw what we were doing, he grabbed his AR from the backseat & just went ahead & stayed to play. He knew he wasn't equipped right but he made a great showing on everything from @350 on in. He was beating me, by the way.

I had a couple of what I think were adjustable gas block issues along with everything else. Seemed it was closing by itself?????? I would open it up between stages, start the next stage works great, then a few shots in, started having feed issues. Opened it again next stage, same thing. I assume it was turning by itself as the screw was REALLY easy to turn. You could put your thumb on it & press & turn it. When I got home, I took it out & put some teflon tape on it which firmed it up some. We'll see if that works.

Mark

[bwaites]

Mark,

That makes sense. 55 FMJ is not exactly a wind cheating round! The 6.8 guys kick the velocity up and hope, since none of the 6.8 rounds have any kind of a decent BC, (well, they kick it up and hope if they handload, or they use Silver State Ammo combat loads and hope!) BUT...to not slap the Bipod on makes no sense if you want to win/place/show!

If I had my F class rifle under those circumstances, I would probably still have shot it, over an AR with 55's! There is just NO consistency to 55's in any kind of wind, that pattern you describe is pretty typical!

[RStewart]

Mark,

That makes sense. 55 FMJ is not exactly a wind cheating round!
If I had my F class rifle under those circumstances, I would probably still have shot it, over an AR with 55's! There is just NO consistency to 55's in any kind of wind, that pattern you describe is pretty typical!

+1. Anything under a 77 grain at distance in a .223 is problematic at best. I shoot 600 yards with 77's in my match AR without much issue (I single load 80's). 55's would be all over the place at that distance with anything other than almost calm conditions.

We will have our next FPR this Saturday and the 6.5G and I will be on the line again shooting at 600. Currently shooting 120 SMK's, but moving up to the 123 SMK's.

[bwaites]

+1. Anything under a 77 grain at distance in a .223 is problematic at best. I shoot 600 yards with 77's in my match AR without much issue (I single load 80's). 55's would be all over the place at that distance with anything other than almost calm conditions.

We will have our next FPR this Saturday and the 6.5G and I will be on the line again shooting at 600. Currently shooting 120 SMK's, but moving up to the 123 SMK's.

I have not been as happy with the 123 SMK's as the Lapuas and the Hornady's. I just can't get them to shoot as well. That said, my buddy says they are more accurate than any load he has tried out of his Grendel, so who knows!

[RStewart]

I'm getting 1/2 moa at 100 with the 120 SMK's, but the BC of the 123's is so much higher I thought I'd try them. But, I'm wondering if lighter might be better also. Any thoughts on weight? I only shoot 600 yard, so varying distances is not an issue.

[noone]

One of the fellows I shoot with (LRS Ranger) tried the 123 Scenars at 100 and didn't like them much. When he shot them at 600 yards though they worked fabulously well. He surmised that his rifle didn't settle them down at 100, but they shot wonderfully at 600 yards. So he is sold on the 123 Scenar for long range, and 120 SMK for 100-300 yards.

[bwaites]

About seven months ago I used my Alexander Arms 19.5 inch Grendel (Shilen barrel) in a precision rifle match. These matches are sort of a cross between assault rifle, and civilian sniper rifle matches. Greatest distance for a target was 10 inch round steel plates at 500 yards. I was shooting against all sorts of bolt rifles made by known high end US, and European manufacturers. The scoring system is a combination of accuracy and speed. The Grendel served me well, and it won the match. Don't let anyone tell you that the Grendel lacks sufficient accuracy at distance. I know my Grendel made quite a few believers that day.

So far, I know of about 4 Grendel shooters at the Tri-county gun club in Oregon. If any other Oregon Grendel shooters are out there, please let us know.

If I remember, you are in the Portland, Oregon area, right? Any more matches coming up?

Bill

[infidel470]

If I remember, you are in the Portland, Oregon area, right? Any more matches coming up?

Bill

Bill, there is a 3 gun match second Saturday of May at TCGC.

[noone]

We also have a precision rifle match coming up in August. 600 yard tactical/prone shooting is every Tuesday evening, and the third saturday of each month.

There are two classes for the tactical/prone. Unlimited from a bench; from prone, you can't adjust the front rest. You can use sandbags, a bi-pod, tri-pod, or cradle, but you are not allowed to adjust the front rest like the bench rest shooters do. Rear bags are allowed in both classes. 2 sighter shots, and 20 shots for record. They use the F-class 600 yard target where the X-ring is half moa (3 inches), and the 10-ring is one moa (6 inches).

The bench crowd usually shoots 200/200 with the X count sorting out top shooters. For the tactical/prone group, any score over 195 is doing pretty good. Although there is one fellow who shoots a bench rest gun from prone, and he usually shoots 200/200. But, most of the fellows who shoot this class use what would probably be referred to as true tactical rifles.

Some examples of rifles used in the tactical/prone class:
6.5 Grendel with a 20 inch Kreiger barrel, billet upper
30-06 built on a blueprinted Remington 700 with Kreiger barrel
260 Remington with 27 inch Obermeyer barrel in Manners stock
TRG22 in 308
FN bolt rifle with 24 inch barrel in 308 (patrol rifle) (this rifle shoots REALLY well...usually a half MOA rifle)
GA precision 308 with 24 inch barrel in Manners stock

The Bench rest class uses classic bench rest rifles, with cartridges like the 6 mm Dasher and similar rigs. This fellow often scores 20/20 X ring hits at 600. There is another shooter using a 6.5-06 improved, and he does pretty well also.