What you guys think about J&T?

[Norsk]

Hi new guy hear :) I'm building my own grendel atm but was thinking about trying a 24 inch bull barrel kit from J&T. I know it wont win me any "cool guy" points at the range but will it shoot? Or would I be better off just spending a few more buck's? I wont be doing any match shooting with it but I still like to see good groups. Main use for it will be coyote hunting and maybe a deer or two. Sorry if my questions are basic and somewhat hard to answer but what you exspect from a FNG :p

[warped]

The main idea here is to buy once and cry once, there is nothing wrong with a J&T kit but for just a few dollars more there are better bbls.

Shilen, Satern, Templar, just to name a few.


IIRC Ricky was second place in last year's sniper comp using a Templar bbl and a WCI brake, he was shooting 5.56mm and competing against other calibers.

Does that make you realize the value of a great bbl?

[bwaites]

Hi new guy hear :) I'm building my own grendel atm but was thinking about trying a 24 inch bull barrel kit from J&T. I know it wont win me any "cool guy" points at the range but will it shoot? Or would I be better off just spending a few more buck's? I wont be doing any match shooting with it but I still like to see good groups. Main use for it will be coyote hunting and maybe a deer or two. Sorry if my questions are basic and somewhat hard to answer but what you exspect from a FNG :p

It will shoot. Expect 1-2 MOA with just about anything, which is what a hunting rifle should do, and with the right bullet you can get it sub MOA, I expect.

It will be mostly dependent on where in the spectrum your barrel is. There aren't really any bad J&T barrels, just some better than others. With Satern, Templar, Shilen, etc. you really are paying for consistency from one barrel to the next. They all shoot from those guys.

[Norsk]

Thanks for the input guys. I get buy once cry once and the grendel I'm building I'm not cutting any corners but I'm doing the build over time. So I started looking into a less costly rifle to get into my hands while I build my "real rifle" and once done with it I would give the J&T to my wife. I just dont want to buy junk if I can get it to shoot close to an inch I'll be happy with it.

[longdayjake]

The J&T is not junk. I know they are cheap, but they actually work pretty darn well. I am very pleased with mine as it is NOT a range toy. I have killed quite a few chucks and even an elk with mine. However, if I were to do it again I would just build my own from cheaper aero precision parts and get a VERY nice barrel.

[LRRPF52]

Gents,

If you really want to save a bunch of money on building an AR, but still want high quality parts, there are ways to do it. You have to decide if you want a billet or standard upper receiver first. There is sound thinking behind using a beefier upper, although many standard uppers with great barrels have been able to shoot great. You can get a DPMS low-pro upper from Midway for $81 right now if you go the beefier upper route, but you might want to true it so the barrel extension flange is perfectly square to the action race ways if needed. This is a machinist task if you pursue it.

If you use a standard M4 upper, you can get DSA uppers from B-store pretty cheap, or blems from BCM or LAR ( I get blems from LAR for $48!!!!, and they only had .001" shaved off the top of the brass deflector where it adjoins the upper under the Picatinny rail...before being finished-nothing wrong with them at all, unless you're a CNC laser ISO-9001 QC station. They're actually better than any other M4 upper I have ordered from other sources, with a much better finish and tighter fit to the McKay lowers from NoDak. They sold out on those really quick.)

I rarely pay more than $75 for perfectly fine off-name 7075 T6 lowers. I was getting them for $65, but those are sold out now. Check with NoDak Spud for those under "A2 lowers". I have bunches of them, and they are great lowers with Type III hardcoat anodizing.

If you're getting a 6.5 Grendel barrel/bolt combo from a reputable manufacturer, you can get some good deals on a complete 5.56 BCG or just the bolt carrier, cam pin, firing pin, and firing pin retaining pin. I usually get my bolt carriers from Bravo Company USA, as they are the cleanest and best-made Milspec M16 weight Bolt Carriers I have found so far. I get a stripped carrier for $51, and build it up with Milspec gas keys and permanent thread-locking compound after checking fit/function with the gas tube alignment. You can get a rifle-length gas system kit with the gas key, gas tube, roll pin, & extra gas rings for $23 from Midway IIRC.

You can shop around Brownell's and Midway and find good deals on extension tubes ($18), recoil springs ($10 for 3-pack), and I would recommend balancing your buffer with your gas system length/barrel length/and bullet weights. I like the Spike's Tactical Tungsten powder buffer, ST-T2, for carbine stocks. They are priced about the same or less than other heavy buffers.

If you're getting a match trigger, just order the Lower Parts Kit without the trigger mechanism and pistol grip for about $30. You don't need a crappy hammer or trigger anyway, or you can get the full kit and polish your trigger/hammer sear engagement surfaces, and use reduced power springs to cut your trigger weight down and make the quality of the pull smooth.

There are some bare-bones free-float tubes available for less than $50 bucks if you shop around, and YHM low-pro gas blocks are $25. Everyone usually uses grips and stocks of their preference, so there are literally tons of A2 stocks and grips floating around for a song. I've got boxes of A2 grips that I will probably never use.

As long as the heart of your system is a quality bolt and barrel, with good springs, functional mags, and the rest is properly-fitted and gas system is balanced, you'll be fine with AR's. I prefer to Cerakote them before assembling, which adds service life, protects from any corrosion, abrasion, humidity, skin salts, etc., and looks amazing.

I had written this up before on the old forum with all the links to these fine sources of quality parts on a dime. Let me know if there is interest in me doing this again, as I'm all about saving money so I can spend it on ammo and gas to the range.

LRRPF52

[StoneTower]

"If you're getting a match trigger, just order the Lower Parts Kit without the trigger mechanism and pistol grip for about $30. You don't need a crappy hammer or trigger anyway, or you can get the full kit and polish your trigger/hammer sear engagement surfaces, and use reduced power springs to cut your trigger weight down and make the quality of the pull smooth."

Where are you getting the LPK less trigger group for $30. Is it a quality kit? I have used Armalite kits but I paid almost $60 for my AR10 LPK less trigger and I had to hunt down some trigger pins to go with the Timney trigger I installed.

Thanks,

David

[warped]

Bob at Templar said to give him a call, custom from him is the same price as standards, because Bob does whatever the customers want, while giving good advice.

You just can't get better than that in a customer service area, equal maybe, never better.

919-757-7085

BTW I was really WRONG and ashamed of myself for saying Ricky was second place last year.


HE WON 1st PLACE!

[LRRPF52]

I order DPMS lower parts kits from Brownell's, and there is an option to get the LPK without the trigger mechanism, which I don't need anyway. I really like using the JP Triggers and Geissele triggers for 2-stage. It's hard to beat an EDM wire cut sear, and even the low-price Geissele blows away all of the RRA, Armalite, Knight's, JARD, Timney, and other 2-stage triggers I've felt.

I haven't had any issues with the numerous LPK's I've ordered through B-store. Back about 10 years ago, I did get some kits that were occasionally missing a part or two, but I don't recall the vendor or source then. So far, the DPMS kits I've ordered over the past few years have all been 100%, but I will remind everyone that true Milspec lower parts are tested in some way for imperfections after the MIM process. Usually, this only applies to you if you're running an AR10 suppressed, due to the increased bolt velocity and carrier mass, causing damage to the bolt catch itself. I've seen it happen, and apparently it happened to Armalite during the SASS trials, even though they have a better gas system for suppressor use on their SASS rifles.

Yes, you can't get around the high price for the Armalite AR10 LPK(-), but Armalite has very good parts.

LRRPF52

[warped]

Yeah the three strikes of the AR10 and derivatives, good thing Colt listened, that is why the 901 runs so well and why they guard it so vehemently.

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

Since we're talking about budget parts I'll throw my two cents in. I have not seen a better trigger that was even close in price than the Mega Tactical single stage. It's adjustable for creep and overtravel and only runs $86. It uses a stock hammer and hammer spring, but I replace the hammer spring with a reduced power unit from JP. I prefer a crisp single stage trigger myself being more of a bolt action shooter.

http://http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1852

[LRRPF52]

Mad Max,

I just looked at that trigger on Rainier's site ( I order from them often ), and it was hard to tell what allows that trigger to adjust for over-travel and creep. Is it like a JP with 2 set screws? If so, I think I might try one for my next running gun. That Mega trigger combined with the DPMS LPK(-) sounds like the most affordable LPK plus match trigger right now, but you will need a hammer in addition to those two items. Thanks for the heads up on those.

I use 2-stage for precision guns, and single stage for carbines that will usually be shot from standing or moving positions. I didn't realize that Mega's trigger was adjustable. When I install the JP's, I polish the sear surfaces of the trigger and hammer using my well-seasoned degree in hand-held, high-speed, rotary tool applications...:) Just make sure you don't take too much material off your trigger bar in the rear when you fit it to the selector...I had a friend that did it once...

LRRPF52

[warped]

Geez man, get a decent buffer for your work bench!

Use the proper polishing compound and you can also really polish the tail of the bolt and nothing tends to stick afterward.

I also started using Frog Lube and it really is great, plus you can eat it, it smells like those wintergreen candies we got as kids.

[Greyghost1]

Norsk,
Back to your original post on 24" bull Grendel by J&T. I have shot one that another person this forum built. It was very accurate, definitely sub 1 moa. For the uses you described J&T could be a good value. I have a 20" J&T H bar barrel. I set it up for an all around rifle range, hunting, and fending off zombies. It has stock trigger, 6 pos stock, and low power optics. I still get groups well under 1/2" at 50 yards when I am consistent in my hold. The current set up isn't really optimized for bench work. In my case the trigger, stock, and optics are more the limiting factor on accuracy. My home range is limited to 50 yards so long range bench shooting wasn't my goal. My complete upper kit was the same price as a satern barrel by itself. For a lot of shooters J&T is a good starting point. I have had mine since 2007 and after around 1000 rounds I have been very happy. No regrets with J&T.
Good Luck,
Jeff

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

Mad Max,

I just looked at that trigger on Rainier's site ( I order from them often ), and it was hard to tell what allows that trigger to adjust for over-travel and creep. Is it like a JP with 2 set screws? If so, I think I might try one for my next running gun. That Mega trigger combined with the DPMS LPK(-) sounds like the most affordable LPK plus match trigger right now, but you will need a hammer in addition to those two items. Thanks for the heads up on those.

I use 2-stage for precision guns, and single stage for carbines that will usually be shot from standing or moving positions. I didn't realize that Mega's trigger was adjustable. When I install the JP's, I polish the sear surfaces of the trigger and hammer using my well-seasoned degree in hand-held, high-speed, rotary tool applications...:) Just make sure you don't take too much material off your trigger bar in the rear when you fit it to the selector...I had a friend that did it once...

LRRPF52

It has a set screw fore and aft that screws down against the bottom of the receiver and adjusts it's position. The front screw adjusts overtravel, the rear adjusts the amount of creep. I've got mine set to the minimum that will still allow it to function properly and it's far better than the Chip McCormick drop in my buddy just put in his Grendel. But like I said I don't like 2 stage triggers.

I can probably email you the installation instructions which shows it better than I can explain it if you're interested.

EDIT: I forgot about this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81mpvsDGHSg

[VASCAR2]

I've got a 16" J&T and I'm very satisfied. I wanted a short range carbine with more power than 5.56. If I wear out the Shaw barrel I might upgrade to higher quality barrel but for now the barrel shoots better than I can hold it. My J&T with C Products mags hasn't missed a beat and it handles jut like my 5.56 duty rifle which was what I wanted.

[Norsk]

Thanks for all the info guys. Not sure what I was thinking but I ordered 2 uppers one from J&T and one from Precision Firearms. As for the one I was building its on hold until I think of something to do with it I sure don't need three grendels. The J&T should be fine for my wife and if the precision shoots as good as they say I'll be happy with mine. I'll give a full report on how they shoot once I get my hands on them.

[Bicyclewrench]

I like mine. I doubt it'll shoot with my AA Overwatch, but I was building a light weight practical hunting rifle and I've got less in the whole rifle than I do in just my AA upper. Been getting about 3" groups at 100 with an Eotech. More time at the range with my rimfires would probably tighten that up.

[C-2-1-7]

Thats OK warped, it happens

[pinzgauer]

I've been extremely pleased with my JT Bull Grendel w free-float handguard, etc. 1/2 MOA with good loads even with so-so trigger & glass.

One nice thing about J&T is that you can upgrade when specifying your kit. Add in a decent trigger (JP, KAC, etc). Want to upgrade to LMT bolt carrier, you can do it.

The bull grendel is a wilson air gauged barrel, and if the rest of them shoot like mine it's a decent setup.

Bro has an A2'ish JT grendel that is shooting 1 MOA or better (shaw rack grade barrel). Son has a 5.56 M4gery from JT. And friends built several others.

Net-net: AA licensed, Good value, seems to dodge some of the problems folks see with M1, etc. Have not had any chamber issues, etc, and fired brass measures pretty much identical to my AA JH forum barrel. JT stripped Uppers & Lowers are quite good for other builds if you want a basic forged receiver.

Good folks to deal with, they are good about responding to email/forum/phone calls. Will happily tell you specifics (alloy, barrel mfg, etc) on their components. (Unlike many other kit houses)

If I upgraded anything, I'd add in the JP speed trigger. Or an LMT 2 stage. and possibly the LMT full auto bolt carrier if it was a defense rifle.

[Norsk]

Good to hear alot of you guys are getting the J&T's to shoot since I did get one. Should be hear today. I'll be putting it on a spikes lower with a geissele trigger and an A2 stock. Not sure yet what stock I'm going to end up with have looked at magpul's PRS and vltor's mod stock and a few others but not made up my mind so for now the A2 is fine.

[warped]

I still run an A2 stock on my long range rifle, it just works.

I use it for the reason that I can use lead in the stock to balance the rifle

[philmurphy]

Norsk,

I use A2 stocks on all of my target rifles. I use them for the same reason that Warped does. The ability to balance the rifle with weight in the stock. I measure the amount of additional comb height needed to center my eye on the occular lens, and apply the appropriate height stick-on comb riser. Be careful. Too, much height is worse than too little. Check your height in your normal shooting position. I build up gaffer's tape, on the comb, until my eye centers, and then measure the tape thickness.

Phil

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

I still run an A2 stock on my long range rifle, it just works.

I use it for the reason that I can use lead in the stock to balance the rifle

I'm sold on PRS stocks myself but I can't fault anyone for using the good ol' A2 stock.

[Norsk]

Yeah I'll be sticking with the A2 untill I fall in love with something different..I got the J&T and took my wife out to the range. After sighting in she was able to shoot just over an inch @100 but had a few flyer's hear and there I'm thinking with a few more rounds down the pipe it might tighten up a bit more. I didnt get to shoot it other than a fast sight in because my wife is a gun hog :mad:. All in all I'm happy with it. One look and you can tell its a budget build but still first time out shot close to an inch for $650.
I should be getting mine next week I went with a Precision Firearms neptune II with a 20 inch Les Baer 1 in 8" twist Stainless Steel Cut Rifling Barrel. I'll get some pic's up once I get them both.

[VASCAR2]

Thanks for posting about your J&T.

[pinzgauer]

One look and you can tell its a budget build but still first time out shot close to an inch for $650.

If the "budget build" aspect means plain A2 furniture, service trigger, etc, that's what you get. But side by side with many other rack grade (armalite, bushy, dpms, etc) they are virtually identical, and in some cases better. Properly staked BCG, Forged, correct height front sight base, etc. Shaw 4140 barrel. Forged 7075 upper/lower. "Contract" fire control parts.

Want M4 ramps? Option. 4250 mil-spec barrel (in 5.56). Option. Free float tube. Option. YHM/DD/whoever rail... option. Geiselle/JP/whoever trigger? Option. FA LMT BCG.... Option Mil-spec buffer tube... Option

In other words, you get a basic A2 or A3 build unless you chose to upgrade. But that basic build is as good quality or better as rifles/uppers selling for $200 more. It's not a LBC, or other custom build. Or even an AA, Sabre, etc. But compared to many well known brands JT does more right than they do. (IE: The infamous AR quality chart)

But they are accurate, reliable, solid rifles. I've never seen one not work flawlessly. All the carping and problems people talk about on this forum and others about making their high dollar builds work just has not been an issue with any of 9-10 JT builds I'm personally aware of.

Not that JT needs defending....Some will turn their nose up no matter what. Others will recognize them for what they are, just a good value entry point for grendel.

I just had to comment on the "budget build".... to some that means sub-standard parts. When for the JT it means basic but solid AR. Lotta bang for the buck, and nothing to be embarrassed about. And very likely to shoot very well. Ours have for sure!

My most recent build is an LMT M4 lower, AA SS Barrel/bolt, AA upper, GI Contract FA BC and remaining upper parts. YHM sight/gas block. MOE green furniture. It's a solid carbine middy build, sub-moa and improving. I can point out slight differences between the LMT lower and the JT lower side by side. None that effect reliability/accuracy. I'd expect differences, the LMT lower was more money, and full up mil-spec. But side by side, my JT bull barrel/free float will out shoot it. All day long. With a "kit" that cost less than many grendel barrels do. :)

So don't be embarrassed by your budget build. Shoot it, and you'll likely be surprised. I view them as the "rat rods" of the AR world. Sleepers, and it's always fun to be underestimated but overdeliver!

[warped]

Yep there is nothing wrong with saving money, my builds all have standard milspec trigger groups (Colt), I tuned them though and you would be hard presssed to tell the difference between the triggers I have and a high dollar one of the same pull weight (3.5lbs)

[pinzgauer]

my builds all have standard milspec trigger groups (Colt), I tuned them though and you would be hard presssed to tell the difference

Sure wish I knew how to do that!!! I paid the extra $40 to get the LMT two stage on my m4 lower, and I'll never be happy with a standard trigger again.

There is also another aspect to the saving money bit... I've found I can get Daniel Defence LPK's for the same price as generics & DPMS, with magpul trigger guard to boot! GI Contract BC's for the same or less than generics. Colt lose parts (handguard cap, delta ring, etc) for same as generic.

So my interest of late is to see how much I can move to better quality parts while keeping the cost in budge build range. You have to pick & choose to do that, so the kit's are better if you are not up to that.

That's also how I ended up with a LMT complete lower, I could not build one for less than I could buy it complete once I shopped around. Especially not with upgrade trigger.

[Norsk]

Dont get me wrong when I said it was a budget build I'm not embarrassed one bit. I take pride in saving a buck whenever I can and this upper saved me a few and is shooting darn good. It is getting sent back for an odd problem the face of the carrier @ about elleven'o clock seems to be smacking into the barrel ext. I own a few ar's and not seen this happen but one call to J&T and they are fixing the problem even putting a rush on it to get it back to me in less than a week. Problems happen and J&T has been quick to fix it so they get a thumbs up from me.

[michaelmew]

I had written this up before on the old forum with all the links to these fine sources of quality parts on a dime. Let me know if there is interest in me doing this again, as I'm all about saving money so I can spend it on ammo and gas to the range.LRRPF52

I thought I would be able to do this on my own, but I am still coming out above budget. I would greatly appreciate a write-up with links on the ways to save money.

[LRRPF52]

Gents,

Unfortunately, in the last 8 months, many sources of my affordable parts have risen in price significantly. I got a bunch of blem uppers from LAR for $48 per, but they are now $68. I got a bunch of excellent 7075 T6 A2 lowers from NoDakSpud for $65 per, but they are now out of stock. Blems from BCM used to be $69.95, but now they're $79.95, and they tend to fit loose so I don't buy them anymore.

The LAR blems looked and fit better than most of the other standard uppers I have ever dealt with. They just had an issue with the brass deflector where a tool had shaved off .004" where it joins with the upper-totally not noticeable to the human eye, but a laser ISO9001 picked it up so they failed QC. Beautiful uppers really.

I order LPK's for $30 from Brownell's, minus the trigger and hammer, since I have extras or will install a match trigger anyway.

I was getting actual Military Colt bolts from foreign military sales guns returned to the US as parts kits, with no signs of actual use. Those bolts sold for $50, so I bought a bunch. Now they are $75! You can get a brand new MPI shot-peened bolt from BCM for $69.95, so I wouldn't even bother with the surplus ones now.

I build the bolt carrier up from scratch using a stripped BCM carrier, and whatever bolt and small parts I choose. Wolff extra power extractor springs from Brownell's in a 3-pack when needed.

With the deals on those previously available lowers and uppers, and a deal on nitro-carb'd barrels, I could do a high-end carbine for $630, with quality parts you will never see on factory guns from the big makers. Add a Troy free-float TRX or Apex machining handguard and a JP trigger, and you're still under $1k. I also spray and bake-on Cerakote on all my receivers, barrels, gas blocks, extension tubes, end plates, and lock rings before re-assembly. It's really the way to go with firearms finishes, and I've seen long-term results with Duracoat, KG, Alumahyde, etc. Cerakote is in a world of its own as far as surface texture and durability are concerned.

Here are some of the blasters I have done:

203
204
205

The last pic shows how I like to funnel the magwell on a standard A2 lower before I Cerakote it.

LRRPF52

[pinzgauer]

Without compromising quality, here's my formula. Assuming collapsable stock:

Lower $224

$74 Daniel Defense LPK (PSA or DSG)
$70 MOE stock, mil-spec tube, Carbine buffer, mil-spec spring (DSG stock kit, or as part of $99 carbine kit if building an upper)
$80 Surplus arms & ammo aero-precision lower (or your flavor, you can pay more, but it won't be better unless you jump to billet)


Upper is harder, just more options:


$90 AA Upper
$15 AA A2 Flashhider
$280 Forum 16" AA SS barrel/bolt
$42 Mil Contract M16 complete bolt carrier (G&R Tactical- the real deal, mfg has GI contract for parts)
$20 LMT tactical charger handle (found for same price as generic, much better made)
$65 YHM 9835 sight/gas block blem (ebay)
$28?? delta ring assembly, handguard cap, gas tube, crush washer (RRA- best value I found, easy to order, better than DPMS/Delton generic)
$30 MOE handguard with free grip (DSG, order as carbine kit for $99 with rear stock)
$20 LMT SOPMOD clone rear sight (UTG, amazon)


My build using the above is one of my favorites, Shoots great! though I used a sundevil lower initially.

Last lower, I shopped around and found I could get an LMT complete lower with mil-spec everything for $300. For the $75 difference in cost vs the cheapest I could build one with decent parts, I went LMT. And will never go back. And found out that adding a two stage trigger was much cheaper than upgrading triggers later, so went with that as well. But the basic LMT defender lower is a jamming deal in my book, especially if you can buy locally and avoid shipping/xfer fee.

But Daniel defense parts kit is the same cost as J&T or DPMS, it's a no brainer. Same for the MOE M4 stock with mil contract tube/spring/buffer.

The formula puts you right at $820, with excellent quality parts where it matters. SS Barrel, MOE furniture is becoming my fav, and even the cheapie rear sight I prefer over some of the more expensive options. (It's a pretty decent clone of the LMT derived from a cut down A2 handle)

You don't save an awful lot on the upper VS buying one preassembled, but you get SS barrel instead of plain, MOE furniture, and a better gas block. You'll need an armorer's wrench, upper block, torque wrench, so borrow or buy.

You can upgrade from there. Many ways to build a fancier/more expensive grendel! :)

[michaelmew]

Gents,

The last pic shows how I like to funnel the magwell on a standard A2 lower before I Cerakote it.

LRRPF52

Is that something you do yourself with a dremel tool or similar? I'm guessing the purpose would be to improve tactical reloads.

[michaelmew]

The formula puts you right at $820, with excellent quality parts where it matters.



Thanks to Pinzgauer and LRRPF52 for the insight. I had in my notes that this could all be done for around $700, but I suppose that was several years ago when I did my first AR. Plus, I know the parts I'm going to upgrade and spend money on (barrel, trigger, handguard, stock) so now I can get a complete picture with the other parts and see where the discrepencies are. I really appreciate all the help. Next time you guys are in Dallas, you've got a couple rounds on me.


-michaelmew

[pinzgauer]

I had in my notes that this could all be done for around $700

You can build a basic, servicable M4 or A2 grendel with a licensed barrel/bolt for right at $700: Buy a J&T basic kit for $615 (really $640'ish with shipping), and add a cheap lower to it. That would put you under $700 assuming you bought your lower locally, etc. Mag would be another $11.

You'd have serviceable components in a grendel M4gery, but probably not mil-spec. All of the J&T kit's I've seen/built have been great shooters, and a good value. And work out of the box. But there would be differences- Plain shaw barrel vs SS. Forged sight vs pictany/folding. Generic furniture vs MOE, plain ramps vs M4.

The biggest tangible difference will be in the LPK... J&T has probably better than average quality for generic, but it's nowhere near as nice as the Daniel Defense LPK for the same money. Same for the barrel... the forum AA SS deal is hard to beat, and for a non-premium barrel mine is shooting very well. You could probably knock a bit off my formula by using generic commercial stock (vs mil-spec), forged FSB, generic handguard, etc.

But with the J&T kit you would not have to assemble the upper and it will work, no fiddling. I like building uppers, and have the tools, so it's a non-issue for me. It just depends on what you want to do.

From there the sky is the limit, you can certainly spend much more. :-)

[LRRPF52]

Is that something you do yourself with a dremel tool or similar? I'm guessing the purpose would be to improve tactical reloads.

Yes, I use a Dremel, hand files, and also use a wire brush wheel to clean up and roughen the surface before Cerakoting it. I prefer to Cerakote over anodized aluminum, but raw aluminum needs blasting or rough texturing to help the Cerakote adhere better. The funnel mag well does help with reloads, whether emergency, tactical, or routine. What I like is a continuous curve for the mag well, versus a constant angle that the feed lips just smack into. The continuous curve helps the mag feed into the well more smoothly, and I also open it up as much to the front and rear as possible, even to include cutting into the MOE or other winter trigger guards.

LRRPF52

[LRRPF52]

For a high quality budget build,

Lower $195

$DPMS LPK from Brownell's $55
$75 Spike's Tactical Buttstock kit
$65 McKay A2 lower from NoDakSpud


Upper: $517 Grendel/$458 5.56

$48 LAR "Blem" Upper
$15 AA A2 Flashhider for Grendel, $5 A2 flash hider for 5.56 from Brownell's or Midway
$269 16" AA SS barrel/bolt from Midway or 5.56 $170 Nitro-carb'd special sale M4 barrel, $50 Colt GI Bolt MPI/Shot-peened from Apex
$51 stripped bolt carrier, M16 weight, BCM
$41 BCM Gunfighter Charge Handle from Brownell's...you could cut cost here with a generic CH for $12
$23 Sadlak or YHM low-profile gas block, Brownell's
$48 DPMS rifle-length free-float tube, Brownell's
$22 DPMS Gas system kit with carrier key, gas tube, extra gas rings, gas tube roll pin, Brownell's/Midway

For both of those above, that is with a free-float tube and no iron sights. It is with the understanding that you have the correct tools for assembly as well.

I have used LPK's from most of the different outlets/brand names, but haven't seen any difference in performance in them over the past 5 years. Back in 2003, I would sometimes get kits that were missing parts, or a bolt catch wouldn't fit, but I haven't seen that in a while, so I just order the DPMS LPK's. If you run suppressed, that might change with bolt catch breakage, but I haven't seen it in any 5.56 guns yet...just AR10's.

Thanks for the heads up on DSG and G&R Pinzgauer. I hadn't seen them yet.

LRRPF52

[rg1]

Bought a 6.5 Grendel upper from J&T. It's the heavy 24" stainless 1/9 barrel, free float tube, DoubleStar gas block. Put it on a Rock River lower with 2 stage RR trigger, A2 buttstock, with a RR Hi-Rise scope mount and a 6.5-20 Leupold Vari-X III recently sent to Leupold to have M1 turrets put on. It has a Harris bipod with leg notches and the tilt feature. Shot it the 1st time Thursday shooting only 17 rounds. I started shooting to zero the scope plus cleaning for the 1st few rounds. I only shot one group to get an idea of accuracy to expect. Was shooting Hornady 123 A-Max factory. I only shot a 4 round group and had 3 bullet holes barely touching mostly in a horizontal group with one shot about 1/2" higher center of the other 3. Slight breeze from behind and left, shooting off the bipod and bench. I only shot it at 100 yards. Velocity of the Hornady 123 A-Max in my 24" barrel averaged 2610fps at 10 ft. thru a Oehler 35P. Temperature during shooting was 90 degrees. Plus I'm just an ordinary shooter with little talent.
I understand that the heavy barrel J&T are Wilson barrels. Quality and appearance looks very good and for the price I'm more than satisfied. I wasn't wanting to spend a lot but wanted a good quality upper and J&T/DoubleStar has a good reputation and stand by their products. The barrel looks very slick and cleaned easily. Didn't have time to do any load development. Have Lapua brass, Hornady 123 A-Max and Sierra 123 BTHP's to test using AA2520 and BL-C2 all using RP 7 1/2 primers loading with a standard full-length Redding die set. Hope to do some load work-ups in the near future and hope my hand loads do as well and hopefully better than factory Hornady.

[pinzgauer]

Bought a 6.5 Grendel upper from J&T. It's the heavy 24" stainless 1/9 barrel, free float tube, DoubleStar gas block.

The 20" version of this was my first Grendel, and I had similar results as you even with cheaper glass. A friend has it now, and it's still shooting great!

Won't win any prestige awards, but it sure shoots good! I almost think of it as a sleeper, better to be underestimated. Lotta bang for the buck!

[longdayjake]

My only Grendel is a 20" J&T. So far it hasn't won any matches but it has killed several varmints and an Elk. I sure ain't complaining. However, I am looking at getting a barrel sometime soon and starting a new build.

[Turtlebuck]

I recently bought a J&T upper 6.5 Grendel 20". I only managed to find Hornady 123 g amax in the area. The ammo gets jammed in the barrel. The bolt won't close completely. I have to pull the charging handle forcefully to extract the bullet. I've contacted j&t and they advised me to use Wolf ammunition, because Hornady hasn't been producing the correct specs for the Grendel. I also contacted Hornady, who advised me their ammunition was not the problem and to maybe run a reamer through the barrel.

I need advise what to do, buy different ammo and pray it works and never use Hornady or take it to a gunsmith and have it reamed?

Or any other advise?

[VASCAR2]

It doesn't sound like you reload and you might try some different ammo to see if the rifle functions. I have a 16" J&T and it shoots the 123 grain AMAX without any problem. I have reloaded ammo which exhibited the same problems you described. I traced this to the bullets being seating to long and the bullet contacting the rifling. Seeing how the 123 grain AMAX was designed to work in the 6.5 Grendel and has an optimum taper/ogive of the bullet I'd say the ammo is out of spec or your chamber is out of spec. Trying different lots of 123 AMAX or different factory ammo may give you an indication where the problem lies. Its possible the rifle is still very tight and just needs a few rounds to break in. It's not unknown to have magazine problems cause feeding issues with the 6.5 Grendel. If I bought different factory 6.5 Grendel ammo and still had functioning issues I would immediately be on the phone to J&T.

[Turtlebuck]

Thanks for the advise. Guess I'll try another company's ammo. Hopefully it'll go smoothly from there. I'll keep an update once I figure everything out, in case anyone else is in my situation.

Thanks again.

[pinzgauer]

I need advise what to do, buy different ammo and pray it works and never use Hornady or take it to a gunsmith and have it reamed?


The Hornady factory ammo has been fine in my J&T grendel as well as AA. Mine was the original lot's of Hornady which apparently had problems with some tighter (non-std) grendel chambers.

Is it the bullet or the case itself which is too long? When you get the cartridge out, do you see rifling marks in the bullet?

The input to try some wolf is good. If the wolf works and the Hornady does not then it might just be a short chamber and you have early hornady. Later hornady should work.

If the wolf also does not work then something is wrong. Either the wrong or out of spec bolt, extractor, or ejector, or the chamber was not throated or finished properly & J&T should take care of you.

[Turtlebuck]

Is it the bullet or the case itself which is too long? When you get the cartridge out, do you see rifling marks in the bullet?

There are rifling markings, they appear on the cartridge and the bullet. The pic shows normal on left and after I extract it on right.

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae9/marecopil/7d3e05f7.jpg
http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae9/marecopil/3539df9d.jpg

When I contacted Hornady I gave them the Lot #, which turned out to be the newer batch of Grendels.

If the wolf work, will I get the same results as Hornady? I don't shoot competitively, I just hunt. Mostly varmints. So I don't need .5" groups. Just enough to to make a coyote blanket.

[robsf49ers]

I recently bought a J&T upper 6.5 Grendel 20". I only managed to find Hornady 123 g amax in the area. The ammo gets jammed in the barrel. The bolt won't close completely. I have to pull the charging handle forcefully to extract the bullet. I've contacted j&t and they advised me to use Wolf ammunition, because Hornady hasn't been producing the correct specs for the Grendel. I also contacted Hornady, who advised me their ammunition was not the problem and to maybe run a reamer through the barrel.

I need advise what to do, buy different ammo and pray it works and never use Hornady or take it to a gunsmith and have it reamed?

Or any other advise?

TB I bought a satern 20" barrel for some $$$ it did the same thing as you described. It would not chamber a round without force and once it did it was pain in ass to get out. I also have an AA upper. I exchanged bolts and tried to chamber and extract. It did so flawlessly. I did not try to shoot any of these rounds as I have been told not to fire bolts from another upper. I sent the bolt back to satern they sent me a new one and it works great no problems since. I know Satern makes great barrels but do not make bolts. They told me they have had problems with a batch of bolts. Hope this helps.If you know somebody with a grendel maybe they would let you try it to see if it chambers and extracts, But do not shoot. I really don't thinks it's the ammo. If you don't know somebody with a Grendel I would let you try my AA bolt. Let me know . I have some Grendels. So it would not be an inconvenience to me.

[robsf49ers]

There are rifling markings, they appear on the cartridge and the bullet. The pic shows normal on left and after I extract it on right.

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae9/marecopil/7d3e05f7.jpg
http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae9/marecopil/3539df9d.jpg

When I contacted Hornady I gave them the Lot #, which turned out to be the newer batch of Grendels.

If the wolf work, will I get the same results as Hornady? I don't shoot competitively, I just hunt. Mostly varmints. So I don't need .5" groups. Just enough to to make a coyote blanket.

TB I had the same "rifle marks " Mr Satern told me they were from the extension. They sure looked like rifle marks to me. I emailed him pictures of these. He's the expert and I took his word for it. He sent me a bolt and it works great. If I were good at pics I would post them. That is my next project learn to post pictures on this forum. Good luck. I know the pain!

[Turtlebuck]

Rob, That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience. I hope I have the same problem as you described. That would be an easy fix just to get a replacement from j&t.

I don't know anyone in my area that owns a Grendel, otherwise I would try swapping bolts.

If anyone would like... I have an extra new box of Grendels Hornady 123 amax 20 rds never chambered, Id like to trade for 20 rds of wolf 123 g??? Let me know.

[Bill Alexander]

That looks a bit tight, I suspect that you are at or below minimum chamber.

It is the nemasis of the caliber that everyone strives for best accuracy which means the tightest chambers, the Hornady ammo is not at fault it is just a touch larger which when in concert with an absolute minimum chamber may cause a snag.

Strange thing about the Grendel is that is does not demand a minimum chamber for accuracy and a happy nominal will shoot every bit as well.

Please call the office and ask for me in respect to this if it continues to be a problem. I will try and get it sorted out. J&T are an extremely conciencious company.

[Turtlebuck]

Well, I finally got some Wolf 123 g rounds. They fit kind of snug in the chamber, but the bolt does completely close.

Im not a pro, but i think i did well. The groups at 100 yards were about 2" (5 rounds). But at 200 they were much larger and I'm thinking it might be due to the wolf ammo.

Should I get the barrel reamed a little by a gunsmith? So i can shoot Hornadys.

I would like to outshoot my Remington 700 bench rest friend, who thinks no gun is better than his. Or I'll sell it and buy another gun.

[Hoot]

Well, I finally got some Wolf 123 g rounds. They fit kind of snug in the chamber, but the bolt does completely close.

Im not a pro, but i think i did well. The groups at 100 yards were about 2" (5 rounds). But at 200 they were much larger and I'm thinking it might be due to the wolf ammo.

Should I get the barrel reamed a little by a gunsmith? So i can shoot Hornadys.

I would like to outshoot my Remington 700 bench rest friend, who thinks no gun is better than his. Or I'll sell it and buy another gun.
It is pretty though.


Every Grendel rifle has a load (or more) that will allow it to shoot phenomenal groups. For yours, Wolf 123g are not it. Trying different ammunition to find that load is what the fun is all about. Making your own ammunition gives you an infinite number of possibilities and even more fun. Don't sell the gun. Find the ammunition it likes, (either loaded or roll your own) and show your friend how it's done.

Hoot

[bwaites]

I have yet to see the Grendel that shoots good groups with the Wolf 123. It's a hunting round, essentially. 2 MOA is good for that.

[pinzgauer]

Well, I finally got some Wolf 123 g rounds. They fit kind of snug in the chamber, but the bolt does completely close.

My read is that if the wolf is snug and Hornady does not close that your chamber or headspace is tight. If it's tight cold, it will malf hot, so it needs to be addressed. The wolf I have seen has been fairly undersized, as is the eastern European tradition. (for reliability)

I'm aware of two other JT grendels that have no problem with either, so I'd discuss with JT. They are normally pretty good about taking care of issues.

[Turtlebuck]

I'm aware of two other JT grendels that have no problem with either, so I'd discuss with JT. They are normally pretty good about taking care of issues.

You're right, It would be much easier to contact j&t. So I'll give em a call and see what can be done, hopefully it should be as easy as swapping barrels.


I'll keep an update.

[Turtlebuck]

Ive been busy with school but I did say I'll keep an update. Well I sent the barrel in and they sent back the same barrel but everything works flawlessly. Here's a short video I made mainly trying out the camera.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBAL3qiJnr4

[smokey27]

I have had nothing but good experiences with JT. Excellent customer service. On some builds where i went with a match barrel in 223, i thought about it and wish I had just kept the JT hbar barrel. they make some great for the price kits in 556 and 223.

Its nice to hear they fixed the problem for you and nice video!

[texasgrunt]

Gents,

If you really want to save a bunch of money on building an AR, but still want high quality parts, there are ways to do it. You have to decide if you want a billet or standard upper receiver first. There is sound thinking behind using a beefier upper, although many standard uppers with great barrels have been able to shoot great. You can get a DPMS low-pro upper from Midway for $81 right now if you go the beefier upper route, but you might want to true it so the barrel extension flange is perfectly square to the action race ways if needed. This is a machinist task if you pursue it.


LRRPF52

Does anyone know which of the billet upper manufacturers actually do this? I am not a machinist and don't know anyone that could do this for me.

Grunt

[pinzgauer]

Does anyone know which of the billet upper manufacturers actually do this?

The billet receivers I've used (Sundevil) are more dimensionally accurate than forgings. So I would expect the need to do this as a separate step to be redundant. And very difficult for a manual machinist step (lathe/mill) to beat the CNC tolerances.

Most of the people which "true the face" are using a specialized tool which has a pilot that goes in the receiver.

There are debates on how much this actually helps if the receiver is not grossly out of spec. (Which billets will not be) With the observation that the aluminum face deforms some under the torque with the steel barrel flange/nut. Enough to handle small variances.

The other potential issue is that "facing" the receiver removes hardcoating. Maybe not an issue if you are doing some sealing or bedding, but will put AL against Steel.

Some people swear by it. Others view it as a "secret sauce" positioned as a differentiator which does not have much impact in the real world if you use a decent receiver to start with.

My rule of thumb would be that if you are not using a super premium barrel, that a quality, in spec receiver will not benefit much from truing. If you want to remove any possible variance on a high end build, it may make sense.

This is just my opinion, others may have different

[texasgrunt]

Thanks Pinz. I am building this as a precision rifle with either a VLTOR MUR/Stiller Precision or a MEGA billet matched upper/lower with either a Templar Customs or LotharWalther Heavy Varmint barrel, but it sounds like I may be worrying over nothing. My current LW/VLTOR/Stiller shoot lights out (in my mind) was fine without considering this, but since I am spending the duckets I thought I would ask since those with more experience mentioned it.

Thanks again

Grunt

[bwaites]

Grunt, given the choice between a Templar Customs or a LotharWalther, I would go Templar. Templars are cut barrels, while the LW's are button rifled.

[pinzgauer]

Given the lapping tool that most use is only $35, it may be worth giving it a try. And many smiths only charge about the same to lap. But be careful, as if the lapping compound get's off the face and into the receiver to barrel extension area you will be increasing slop, not decreasing. IE: Don't lap the inside, just the face)

That said, the receivers you hear about that are noticeably off (several degrees) I'd worry about for other reasons. IE: If the forging and subsequent cleanup was that out of spec, then what else is wrong?

Likewise, some of the smith measuring tricks are only measuring variance of the face to the rail or other external parts of the receiver. When what matters is how perpendicular the inside of the receiver is.

And some smiths have reached a point that they use the lap tool as a gauge with feeler gauges. If the gap is over a certain amount, then it's the receiver that's out of spec. You can decide whether to lap or just get a different receiver.

Sometimes you hear about free float hand guards with barrel off center. Which many presume to be a barrel/receiver misalignment. But depending on how the handguard attaches, it's far more likely that the handguard is mounted incorrectly.

Remember how the receiver to barrel extension/barrel works. My observation is that in a good, in spec receiver more alignment comes from that "fit" than the flange & face. There may be something to be said about equalizing force between the barrel flange, etc. Potential impact on harmonics. But I've not seen any verifiable information on this pro or con.

You are using high end components. Which should be in spec. I would not accept a VLTOR or MEGA billet receiver that had to be lapped to get a perpendicular face. But if you want to be sure, the tool is cheap. I'd just get a read from your receiver mfg if that would in any way invalidate warranty.

But all of this is just my opinion based on what I've been able to research. And I'm not a smith or high end mfg. There are others on the forum who may have a better or at least different opinion on it's real world impact on accuracy. :)

[LRRPF52]

Templar trued the face of Yut's Grendel, and re-coated it. Bob said it was some type of anodizing touch-up, which could be Duracoat for all I know. I also prefer the precision guns where I have to tap the barrel into the upper. I know at least one gunsmith who has beaded barrel extensions into uppers, and even unitized them on guys AR10's that wanted a certain accuracy guarantee. Not sure I would do that, but there is significant barrel whip in the AR15, and more in the Grendel.

I have only shot my Grendel through my MGI Quick Barrel Change upper, and achieved slightly less than MOA with a button-rifled barrel and Scenars. Maybe I will drop it in a dedicated upper some day and see if there is a difference.

[Norsk]

Well its been a while and I have both my uppers at about the 1500 round count. I forgot to do a little report untill I got a PM the other day from a guy wanting to know how the precision firearms upper was shooting. At 100 I cant tell them apart. Both will shoot sub moa all day long. 1/2 moa if I'm on. To tell the truth they both might out shoot me. I have proven to be right about a 1/2 moa shooter with my bolt guns over the past 25 years. Now as you start to get out a ways you can start to see what the extra money bought. Now I dont really shot groups all that much and I dont really ever measure them but the precision upper is holding sub moa or right at it @300 while the JT is closer to 1.5 or 2 moa. I shoot steel most of the time and have had no problem's taking each gun out to 650 (650 is as far as I have went with them. My GAP 10 in 6.5 creedmoor handles anything longer =). But you can tell by the splater marks the precision is shooting tighter. So far I have had no problems with them at all just load up some mag's and shoot all day so all in all I happy with both uppers and my wife loves the JT she shot her first deer ever with it this year at a whooping 40 yards =) I know its a crappy report but oh well. =)

[SPLOGAN]

My only Grendel is a 20" J&T. So far it hasn't won any matches but it has killed several varmints and an Elk. I sure ain't complaining. However, I am looking at getting a barrel sometime soon and starting a new build.

Are you running FF or standard HG's? Pics.