Lever & Pump Action Platforms

The ideal multipurpose light cartridge needs someone to dream up the ideal platform. A traditional looking lever or pump action platform might not be "ideal" to everyone, but it would appeal to many.

Here is an idea I've been kicking around for a long time: Pair a Winchester Model 94 type lever action with the grooved tubular magazine from the old Remington Models 14 and 141. The result would be a lever action with a traditional look and feel that could fire modern pointed bullets.

The Remington Model 14/141 could also be updated to create pump action for use with 6.5 Grendel and other modern cartridges.

The patents on both the Winchester Model 94 action and Remington Model 14/141 solution to the problem of pointed bullets in a tubular magazine must have expired long ago. I bet you could update Pedersen's magazine design by using molded polymer inside a metal tube to guide the cartridges instead of a spiral bead in the tube itself.

Why do it? For one, I think there is an untapped market. There are lots of folks who love the look and feel of the Model 94, but want more reach than flat-tipped bullets can offer. IMO a Model 94 in 6.5 Grendel would be a thing of beauty. I also like the ease with which I can top off a tubular magazine with loose rounds.

There it is FWIW. I'll never do anything with it, but someone else may want to look into updating Pedersen's/Remington's tubular magazine design.

Yeah, the Winchester 94 in Grendel .... I'll take one. My significant other will open my/her/our purse for that one! Tell me more about the ability to use pointy bullets though. Any pics or links?

Topping off the mag, without taking your eyes off the landscape, ( or even blindfolded on a moonless night wearing sunglasses over an eye patch ) by just pressing against the breech until the trap door drops and then pushing the round in with your thumb is my very favorite feature of this rifle. It becomes such a reflexive action that most Win 94s are always loaded to the max whenever they are put into use. Topping the magizine off becomes a nervous, fidget reaction. Instead of reaching for a smoke or the bite valve on the CamelPac one tries to push a few more rounds down its throat.

Even on modern battlefields like patrolling from a HumVee in Iraq the lever action works well. On horseback it is of course the ultimate. Prone it's awful, but no one will buy this gun for prone use anyway, so not a problem.

For mounted ranchers or horse mounted Police or Park Rangers this would be the ultimate in the era of Homeland Security. RagHeads beware, this Ranger will blow your brains out at 1,000 yards! What a sleeper!

Here are Google results for the terms "Remington" and "Spiral Magazine" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Remington+%22spiral+magazine%22). I'll try to find some good images and post them.

Even if you couldn't make the spiral magazine work with a Model 94 action (although I don't see why you couldn't), an updated Model 14 or 141 would offer the same benefits as the old IMI Timberwolf (operates just like a pump shotgun) with more potent ammo (6.5 Grendel, 7.62x51, 5.56x45 or the like).

http://lapetoire.free.fr/public/mod%20epaule/R/Remington%2014.jpg

I assume a Winchester 94 in Grendel (Grenchester ?? :D ) would get me around the People's Republic of California's assault rifle ban???

A Winchester Model 94 or updated Remington Model 14 or 141 in 6.5 Grendel wouldn't be an "assault weapon" but with the right sight(s) and operator it could be pretty fearsome ;)

An updated Model 14 or 141 would be a nice alternative to these:

Model 7600 (http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm)

http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7600.jpg

Model 7615 (http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm)

http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615.jpg

Hmm . . . Brockmans does both 6.5 Grendel (CZ-527) and (Marlin) lever action work. I wonder if they could update the Model 14/141 magazine...

7615P... and for a nice price too! http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700264882.html
http://territorialsupplies.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RE648X&Category_Code=grr

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/7600wd.htm

http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/st_0302_marlins/
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976300642.htm


http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_deer_rifles_field.htm ... and check out the review of the 6.5x55 Swedish... :D

Yep, Chuck Hawks loves 6.5s and he gave the .30-30 Marlin Models 336SS, 336C, and 336A the top score in his deer rifle comparison. Now if only we could get Brockmans or someone else to adapt the Remington Model 14/141 magazine for those Marlins and chamber them for 6.5 Grendel!

One of the things I like about the Grendel (besides being AR compatible and a tack driver) is the fact that it appears to be "just right" for deer. The 200 pound Optimal Game Weight (OGW) distance for a 120 grain round is 255 yards, and the maximum point blank range (MPBR) (+/- 3") is 267 yards. Compare that to the 205 yard OGW and 225 yard MPBR for a 150 grain 30-30. Chuck Hawks says "the good old 30-30 is a very well balanced cartridge, as the OGW and MPBR ranges are a close match." The same is true for the 6.5 Grendel, except the OGW and MPBR distances are 20% greater. The 6.5 Grendel has an even greater advantage if you look at energy. It has more energy at 350 yards than the 30-30 does at 200.

If a .30-30 Marlin Models 336SS, 336C, and 336A is good, a 6.5 Grendel would be better :D

Does anyone know the max practical range when firing from a horse-mounted position. My significant other says its possible to train the horse to the point where its neck and even the crown of its head can be used to stabilized the weapon. TexasRanger??? anyone ??

My significant other says its possible to train the horse to the point where its neck and even the crown of its head can be used to stabilized the weapon.

That sounds like a good idea if you want a deaf and maybe blind horse..... You'd do serious damage to a horse's ears and eyes with the muzzle blast if you set off a rifle between his ears.

My significant other says its possible to train the horse to the point where its neck and even the crown of its head can be used to stabilized the weapon.

Damn dude! I hope you don't own any horses!!! Holy crap! :eek: Please pardon me for not loaning you any either..... :o

Well, since you brought it up this plate of nonsense ...

I can fire a bullpup 5.56 SA-80 2 inches from my ear but my horse will go deaf? I think not. Firing a rifle using the horse's head as a mount is rare, but it will not blind the horse as the muzzle blast is well ahead of the eyes, especially if the horse is trained to bow its head.

It was SOP for Nazi MG-42 co-gunners to kneel so the gunner could rest the folded bipod on his right shoulder while holding the heat shield fast to the shoulder with his left hand.

American Indians used to routinely hang their bodies down the sides of horses and fire from under the horses neck, causing neither deafness nor blindness but making counter-battery fire nearly impossible.

Special Forces operators in the opening days of the Afghan campaign after 9/11 fired thousands of rounds of AK-47 wherever they needed to from horseback and mowed down a ton of Talliban in the process. These horses were well-trained and were great gun platforms.

Buffalo hunters hunted from horseback at a dead run with many follow-up shots, sometimes from sunup to sundown, and their horses didn't bolt, break stride, rear up or otherwise suffer damage. This allowed them to kill 5 million Buffalo in 3 years time.

The history of horse Cavalry would be about two words long if any of this "deaf & blind" nonsense were true.

Seriously, if your horse is really as inept a mount as you suggest, sell the nag and find a reputable trainer/breeder.

I can fire a bullpup 5.56 SA-80 2 inches from my ear

You've had the muzzle of a 5.56 fired 2 inches from your ear and did not suffer permanent damage? B.S.

The history of horse Cavalry would be about two words long if any of this "deaf & blind" nonsense were true.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you can't shoot from your horse. I'm saying that you *are* going to injure the horse if you use his head for a rest. Sure, Nazi's deafened each other, cavalrymen and injuns injured and killed many horses, but we're not talking about war here, we're talking about recreational shooting, and I don't think that warrants abusing a horse.

Ditto what Griz said, and get a grip on reality solidpoint. Resting and firing a weapon on a horses head? I have avoided comment on many things, but if you cannot see how sheerly ludicrus and downright irresponsible such a suggestion really is then I can't see how any responsible or rational person could hope to take you seriously.

No one said anything about having the muzzle 2" from an ear. This should have been obvious given the reference to a bullpup.

I didn't say anything about resting the rifle on the neck or head. I said using the neck or head to stabilize the shot. Try reading for comprehension before pounding the keys. It helps to actually address what someone else is saying, not what you think they said.

Just for shits and grins I ran a Google search for "maximum horse mounted rifle range" and got 1.63 million pages back. There are 3 such shooting clubs in my area alone. They shoot both pistols, usually .45s, and rifles up to 44 mags. The horses are not damaged.

Even a passing knowledge of the Civil War would inform one that horses were not only used as gun platforms, but also pulled artillery and were exposed to much heavier concussive forces than rifles or pistols.

If you are inept enough you can screw up and shoot the horse in the neck or head too, but I assume no one like that would be lurking on this site. ;)

No one said anything about having the muzzle 2" from an ear. This should have been obvious given the reference to a bullpup.

So what's the 2" reference then? The stock doesn't make loud sounds, so who cares how far that is from your ear....

I didn't say anything about resting the rifle on the neck or head. I said using the neck or head to stabilize the shot. Try reading for comprehension before pounding the keys. It helps to actually address what someone else is saying, not what you think they said.

I have no idea what you said then. Perhaps there is a communications problem on both ends here. How exactly do you "stabilize the weapon" on the "crown of its head" without getting the muzzle dangerously close to the horse's eyes and ears.

I have nothing against hunting or shooting from horseback, I've done it. I just object to harming your horse needlessly.

Ditto Griz yet again.

Solidpoint: Lest I play wordsmith and place words in your mouth.... Prithee wouldst thou tell us exactly how--

"My significant other says its possible to train the horse to the point where its neck and even the crown of its head can be used to stabilized the weapon"

could not translate into the discharge of a firearm with the weapon's muzzle in very close proximity to it's ears and/or eyes.

I have also hunted horseback, and (on a lark) have fired from the mounted position and taken game. No one is saying you cannot discharge a firearm from horseback. We ARE saying that resting a weapon on a horses head is ASSinine. End of story.

Variable OUT.

Can I have my thread back?

Is anyone else interested in the possibility of using a Remington Model 14-style spiral tube magazine to permit a lever or pump action to shoot 6.5 Grendel?