View Full Version : What is the best buffer to use?
03-12-2011, 04:59 AM
I head that this was discussed on the old site, but alas, it is all gone. So, I will ask you all, what is the best buffer for the Grendel? I heard that people have had issues with hydraulic buffers. Since the Grendel is a bit hotter of a round, should I get a heavier buffer to slow down the action and delay unlocking? Right now I have an Endine carbine size buffer, but I am thinking about switching to my H2 or heavier...
03-12-2011, 01:54 PM
I have a Vltor Emod A5 on mine, hope to try it this weekend.
03-12-2011, 02:21 PM
There were reports of people breaking their bolts while using endine buffers. Your buffer will depend on your particular rifle. I think a heavier buffer is probably wise and you might even look at using a military full auto carrier to add some weight to slow it down.
03-12-2011, 03:07 PM
We have H3G buffers available, they have been tuned to work with the grendel.
There were a few customers from this site before it went down, I am sure they will let you know what the they thought of them.
One guy purchased two more of them.
If you're interested in a weighted bolt, have a modest tool compliment and the wherewithal to use them, Here's (http://www.450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=799) an article I did on making your own. Works really well and the price is right.
03-12-2011, 09:47 PM
There is a very good reason to not put a weight into the carrier.
This may work for now but I would use extreme caution, the carrier has set design and it is important.
Do you realize that you now have a carrier that is overweight and unbalanced?
There is a optimum weight for each cartridge, this ignores that data.
Another thing that occurs when you have too much weight in the carrier is that it beats the crap out of the bolt and bbl extension.
After 723 rounds of 450 Bushmaster it is doing fine and it doesn't beat up the brass. The 450B, for whatever reason, uses a carbine length gas tube. The additional weight seems to offset the fast unlocking nature of the gas system. Examining the carrier,it has little to no wear marks that would indicate the balance being upset. No FTFs, no FTEs. Runs like a swiss watch and throws sub MOA groups at 100 yards. Here is one of many 5 shot 100 yard targets:
I have a stack of targets like that if you want to see more. It actually makes the cycle of the buffer and spring a lot more gentle than without it. You really feel the difference on the bench. Lots of folks talking about variable gas blocks, special buffers and/or springs for the 6.5 Grendel, so I figured I'd throw that out as another way to slow the unlocking inertial moment. If you haven't tried it, don't judge it in absentia.
03-15-2011, 05:49 AM
Thanks for the help all.. I did switch out my Endine with an H2. As it is a little heavier (I think, though I don't have a postal scale) it slowed down my action a bit and actually makes it feel like there is no recoil at all. I have never shot an AR type rifle where you couldn't feel the buffer at least tap the end of the buffer tube. It's pretty sweet, the reticle barely jumps with each shot! Is this what it's supposed to feel like? I'm hoping that reliability doesn't suffer as the action is just gassed enough to cycle the bolt. It seems that it wouldn't take much to start short stroking. All the military rifles (and my LWRC) I have shot seem excessively over gassed, I am assuming to ensure reliability?
03-15-2011, 01:35 PM
I think that over-gassed can cause a different set of problems than under-gassed. The hard part if figuring out where the "Goldilocks zone" of just enough gas for reliability and low recoil is located. Alexander Arms would be an excellent source of info as Mr. Alexander does extensive testing on just about anything you can imagine.
03-15-2011, 04:26 PM
Add a WCI brake and the rifle won't move.
That is what I am always getting at by a rifle being properly tuned, everything in balance and nothing left wanting.
The idea is to make it work within spec and reduce any harsh forces.
03-15-2011, 04:30 PM
I make the H3G for the Grendel, it works great with Beowulf and 5.56mm as well.
If we were to view it in use by a high speed camera we would see that the bolt does not bounce and the that movement is smoothed with a slower unlock time.
It works really well on full auto, together with a can or the WCI it makes it feel like a toy.
There are a few guys that should be coming back to this site soon that are using both, they were really happy.
03-16-2011, 01:47 AM
+1 on the WCI
03-16-2011, 04:03 AM
The WCI brake I had worked great at reducing recoil. But because it had ports 360 degrees around it, I couldn't keep it on the rifle for practical rifle matches. Because of the ground blast, it kicked up so much junk I had to slow down and wait for the junk from the ground blast to clear so I could continue firing. Having to wait for the dust cloud to clear really hurts in matches where time is an integral part of your score. The increase in recoil wasn't as detrimental to my scores as the dust kicked up.
If WCI would make a brake with no ports on the bottom though......
03-16-2011, 02:25 PM
We have an adjustable type,if I just don't have the bottom holes of the sleeve drilled it would do as you like when closed, open it would work the same.
This might suit your needs, we make them to be as efficient as possible, leaving that much area unused would lessen the effectiveness a measurable amount.
Look at your brake, I think you can picture how it works, if you close off those intersecting holes it starts working like other brakes.
We don't try to match others performance, we want to outperform them all.
I suppose I could make you what you want, it would however lose a little performance.
Remember that these were tested in Iraq, they had little problem with it.
Sounds like you have an area that has been mechanically disturbed (scrapers or dozers) that clay will be like talcum powder unless you use a watering truck.
It was even fired indoors, with electronic ear pro on, similar to Walkers tactical ears.
03-16-2011, 02:35 PM
The increase in recoil wasn't as detrimental to my scores as the dust kicked up.
If WCI would make a brake with no ports on the bottom though......
If you want a quick fix, have the outside ports welded shut where you need them closed, do not do more than the outside surface.
Then chuck it in lathe or file and re-coat it.
That should do what you want and leaves it pretty efficient.
Unfortunately that would void the warranty on materials and workmanship.
03-16-2011, 02:36 PM
It really depends on if you are shooting off the ground or not. Iraq has this stuff called moon dust that I have never seen equaled anywhere else I have ever been. It's like the ground is covered with talcum powder. The adjustable break that you can shut off on the bottom sounds like it could be a real winner. Right now I am running a PWS precision rifle break and it seems to be working pretty good...
I'm running several brakes made by Ross Schuler. Here's the basic form factor:
It has side ports and a top port, but none on the bottom. Ross does top shelf work for bargain basement prices and 2-3 day turn around time. He is by far the best machine shop bang for the buck out there. Try $45.00 shipped in either Stainless or CrMo. I ordered the one for my Grendel this past Friday and it was on my porch on Monday when I got home from work. I'm not affilitated in any way with Ross, but I do believe in giving a shout out for a good guy.
03-16-2011, 03:30 PM
That is extremely inexpensive, but I see why.
You could not even start to make a WCI for that money.
I know what they cost to make them in large quantities.
Also bear in mind that brake will have an enormous concussion to it, it does not have a mechanism to chop up sound waves and it also has a large internal chamber.
Nothing new there, it is similar to so many others.
If that is all you need and it suits you, that is a good deal.
There is a reason however why people who have purchased and used so many other brakes have bought a WCI and will not go back.
On the old site customers have told people why, maybe they will come back here and drive that point home.
I designed the WCI for exactly what it is used for, precision and combat.
03-16-2011, 04:41 PM
I have used both the Ross brake, and the WCI brakes. I think the WCI brake is better at reducing recoil, but as Warped pointed out, much of my competitive shooting is in a huge gravel mining pit where the ground has been disturbed. When it is wet, there isn't so much of a problem, but when it is dry, it is awful.
The Ross brake doesn't reduce recoil as effectively, but it doesn't kick up dust. Both brakes work really well, but if anything, I'll probably next try one of the brakes Warped makes without the ports from about 4-8 o'clock.
My previous comments were not intended to disparage Warped brakes in any manner...they are fabulous. I have an unusual use requirement shooting in a dusty pit that is rather odd. In most other uses where grass, hard ground, pavement and so on are present, I believe the brakes from Warped are superior in reducing recoil. Additionally, I agree that for some reason, brakes made by Warped don't seem to have as much of the beastly side blast as most other brakes. Probably because with ports all around, each port disrupts the gas venting from the ports next to it thereby reducing side blast.
03-16-2011, 05:37 PM
I never took your comments for anything other than the conditions you shoot in.
Previously you always said you like the performance, that kind of disturbed dust is why they have water trucks on work sites.
03-18-2011, 02:18 PM
I guess shooting when it is dusty as hell is a welcome alternative to shooting prone in a mud puddle...both have their disadvantages though.
03-19-2011, 11:58 AM
Am I the only one that shoots off a mat?
03-19-2011, 08:07 PM
I do when I can
03-20-2011, 05:40 PM
Palmetto State Armory has H3 buffers:
03-30-2011, 02:30 PM
What's the best rifle buffer?
03-30-2011, 03:04 PM
milspec rifle buffer weighing 152-155 grams
03-30-2011, 03:18 PM
Am I the only one that shoots off a mat?
I do, also.
04-19-2011, 04:07 PM
I have toyed around with different combinations of buffers and springs on my 18" mid length gas. First had a enidine rifle buffer with a wolff extra power rifle spring. Had problems with jamming. No bolt problems but I only shot it a handfull of times. Fearing the safety of my bolt I switched to the standard rifle spring and buffer. It functions better now. My question is has anybody tested a similar rifle using the standard buffer and a heavy spring such as the wolff? I plan on trying this next time out at the range.
04-19-2011, 11:50 PM
JP low mass buffer coupled with a JP low mass carrier and JP adjustable gas block. It's easier on the bolt than anything. It also has a very nice recoil impulse.
04-20-2011, 01:02 AM
Warped Am I still on your waiting list for one of these buffers?
04-20-2011, 01:18 AM
On my 16" AA mid-length upper, I use a Wolff extra power rifle length buffer spring. Not sure if it makes a difference, but it theoretically should accomplish the same thing as a heavier buffer. I'm not sure if a heavy buffer / spring provides any benefit in a rifle length gas system.
04-20-2011, 01:35 AM
That was what I was thinking with the extra power spring. Just need to get out to the range and try out different combinations. I'm shooting 123g Scenars over 30.5g of Win 748, that and 123g SMK's over the same have been my main load for my rifle. Thanks
04-20-2011, 01:46 AM
I am going to see what happens when I run a spikes ST2 buffer this weekend. I will take the old standard one, as well, and just shoot some wolf to compare the two.
05-23-2011, 06:18 PM
I'm running a carbine lower with a rifle upper, utilizing stock spring with an H buffer and I get ejection between 3-4 oclock. prior to that I was running an ST2 buffer with extra power spring and the rifle would not cycle.
05-23-2011, 06:48 PM
A properly running M4 SOPMOD
05-24-2011, 03:09 AM
The buffer depends on gas vs piston, the spring, the buffer tube length, the gas tube length, the gas port size, the bullet weight, the powder, the carrier style and weight, the condition of the gas rings, and the temperature, and probably a couple of things I've missed. I used to use hydraulic pistons, but they have an oil seal that can fail, and the strictly mechanical ones reduce the risk. I tend to build my rifles with a standard buffer, and change the other factors until it is right, and it seems to be simpler and easier to balance. I only build rifles for me, and each is an adventure of it's own. I am quite a novice however and bow to those who are more experienced.
05-24-2011, 04:13 AM
I have been using an H buffer with no problems so far.
05-24-2011, 06:59 AM
You would notice a difference though using an H3 or H3G.
10-15-2012, 12:34 PM
Carrier: national carrier Boron
Barrel: Lilja 20" fluted with PRI brake
Stock: Magpul UBR
Scope: Vortex Viper pst 4-16X50
I am looking for a way to reduce the recoil where I will not lose sight picture while shooting. I would think that the next step would be a replacement for the recoil buffer, but I don't want to loose the reliability I have in my current setup. While reviewing the endine website I noticed they had cycle life listed on their hydraulic buffers and wonder if they would wear out faster than my standard buffer assembly. I would like to eliminate all the recoil I can so I can stay on target through my scope without affecting reliability or function. Any suggestions?
10-15-2012, 02:59 PM
bsears10: I don't know if totally eliminating recoil is even possible but to keep on target through the scope a lot of people have had good luck with the WCI muzzle brake.
On the old forum, before it was hacked, there were a lot of people complimenting how well the WCI worked.
The down side as with any brake is the amount of blast given off to the sides if you are shooting near other people.
Hopefully some people will chime in with their first hand accounts to give you some input.
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