Lightweight Build for Stalk hunts

[BjornF16]

I'm looking to build a lightweight, mid-length upper. I really like the looks of the Ultra-light from AA, but want a threaded barrel for one of Warped's muzzle brakes.

Here's what I'm planning on buying, but looking for any advice:

AA Spartan 18' threaded barrel/bolt
JPE low profile adjustable gas block
JP/VTOR mid length modular hand guard
AA upper receiver
Still looking for lightweight carrier...help!!!!

What am I missing?

Bjorn

[Drifter]

Satern has double-fluted 18" barrel-bolt combo's on clearance. Check their website.

JPE has lightweight bolt carriers.

[warped]

You might want to opt for a Ti WCI brake then as well.

Big difference in weight.

You really should use a normal carrier and buffer at rifle weight.

Do not skimp on the running gear

[warped]

The G10 or MK10 from AA is the lightest and best I have found.

Rock solid too.

If I wanted built in rails I would buy a Templar.

I have had and or installed nearly every FF tube you can think of and many of them do not exactly win high praise.

That Rail you mentioned is far heavier than a G10

[LRRPF52]

I'm looking to build a lightweight, mid-length upper. I really like the looks of the Ultra-light from AA, but want a threaded barrel for one of Warped's muzzle brakes.

Here's what I'm planning on buying, but looking for any advice:

AA Spartan 18' threaded barrel/bolt
JPE low profile adjustable gas block
JP/VTOR mid length modular hand guard
AA upper receiver
Still looking for lightweight carrier...help!!!!

What am I missing?

Bjorn

Bjorn,

Just be advised that the lightweight JP carriers are meant to be used as one component in a series of components that are designed to increase the cyclic rate of fire in semi-auto for competition shooters in USPSA 3-gun events, to help shave time off a run. They are not recommended for a field or duty gun usually. They are meant to be used with an adjustable gas block, a different buffer, and even different recoil springs in a rifle-length extension tube. After assembling a "race gun" with these components, the competitor will then find a load that works best with his or her rifle for reliability, and play with the adjustable gas block a lot to find a very fine balance between reliability and recoil in doing so.

I'm not sure how those lightweight carriers would hold up with the Grendel for maintaining lock-time properly either, but if you do go that route, it might be educational from an experimental perspective.

I would personally steer away from such a system for a lightweight stalking gun, as you can shave most of the unwanted weight off your rifle/carbine with a lightweight barrel, and careful selection of ancillary parts for furniture, aiming solutions, etc. With the same barrel profile, a Grendel will be lighter than a .223 or 5.56 anyway, since it has less mass from the larger bore diameter.

LRRPF52

[BjornF16]

You might want to opt for a Ti WCI brake then as well.

Big difference in weight.

You really should use a normal carrier and buffer at rifle weight.

Do not skimp on the running gear

Any idea where I could get the Ti WCI brake? ;-)

[warped]

None at all....hehehe

Well yeah just maybe

[RStewart]

None at all....hehehe

Well yeah just maybe

You ain't right!!

[ss355]

Bjorn, I bought the 16" midlength button-rifled tube (listed for $260 on the AA site). It has a threaded muzzle. The entire gun, with 1-3X scope an RRA one-piece aluminum float tube, weighs about 6.5 lbs. I'm completely happy with the accuracy. Here's a link to the gun and a target:

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?587-My-AA-carbine-and-LBC-rifle

Oh, you in the Austin area, by chance? If so, I'd be happy to let you run a few rounds downrange to see how she handles.

[BjornF16]

Bjorn, I bought the 16" midlength button-rifled tube (listed for $260 on the AA site). It has a threaded muzzle. The entire gun, with 1-3X scope an RRA one-piece aluminum float tube, weighs about 6.5 lbs. I'm completely happy with the accuracy. Here's a link to the gun and a target:

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?587-My-AA-carbine-and-LBC-rifle

Oh, you in the Austin area, by chance? If so, I'd be happy to let you run a few rounds downrange to see how she handles.

I'm very intrigued as I was considering the "tactical" 16" barrel. Just to confirm, you have the chrome lined, pencil profile barrel listed in AA barrel/bolt combo?

I'm really looking at this gun as a sub-200 yard weapon. We'll also be carrying a 8lb Remington 700 (7mm Rem Mag) during the stalk. My Grendel Entry is a whopping 11 lb (12 lb with bipod) gun that just is not desirable for a stalk hunt.

You would be happy with your Grendel for 200 yd and closer?

Thanks,

[ss355]

... Just to confirm, you have the chrome lined, pencil profile barrel listed in AA barrel/bolt combo?

...

You would be happy with your Grendel for 200 yd and closer?



Mine is the stainless version shown here (mine has the bead blast option for matte finish): http://www.alexanderarms.com/item/14/92/16Grendelbuttonrifledbarrelandbolt.htm

200 yards is probably further than I'd care to shoot at game, but if I felt confident about the shot, I'd have no problem using that gun. I carried my 18" FAL on a hog hunt once, and though I'm a relatively fit 6', 200lb frame, I swore afterward that the next time I went on a hunt like that where I did I lot of hiking that I'd have a lighter rig.

[BjornF16]

ss355

I was thinking of the tactical upper...who supplies your barrel to AA?

[LRRPF52]

Gents,

I have no problems humping my 16" AA barrel carbine, even when I had a larger scope on it. It also has a rifle-length float tube as well. It basically feels as light as an M4 to me...much lighter than my Pre-'64 Winchester .270 Featherweight, and has a way nicer trigger than the .270, since I put a JP in it. A lot less recoil of course, but nowhere near the velocity either.

A 200yd shot would be child's play with any zero'd Grendel, let alone most other high-powered rifles in the right hands.

LRRPF52

[BjornF16]

Gents,

I have no problems humping my 16" AA barrel carbine, even when I had a larger scope on it. It also has a rifle-length float tube as well. It basically feels as light as an M4 to me...much lighter than my Pre-'64 Winchester .270 Featherweight, and has a way nicer trigger than the .270, since I put a JP in it. A lot less recoil of course, but nowhere near the velocity either.

A 200yd shot would be child's play with any zero'd Grendel, let alone most other high-powered rifles in the right hands.

LRRPF52

16" barrel/bolt combo is only .16 lbs lighter than 18" Spartan. Any reason not to get Spartan?

Any idea of the weight of the AA Mk-10 plus handguards?

[warped]

The spartan is really really good.

I say if under 18" go 14.5" no need to be 16"

[warped]

Call AA and ask them to weigh one.

Get a rifle length so you cover your gas block, it will give you a nice sight radius too is you use a BUIS.

I have two of them if that tells you something.

The only rails I have any more are Templar and G10/MK10

I retired my hogue and YHM to friends rifles for free.

[BjornF16]

The spartan is really really good.

I say if under 18" go 14.5" no need to be 16"

I was initially looking for 14.5" but the AA only comes with pinned flash suppressor...otherwise I would have bought one and pinned muzzle brake.

Is the Mk 10+ a two piece or 1 piece tube (i.e. do I need a special wrench for a 1 piece tube...or is it like JP/VTOR)?

[Whelenon]

My Grendel has AA's 16" SS barrel, shoots sub-moa w/Nosler 120 BT. With scope weights 7-1/2 pounds. Very happy with it!
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?466-Weighing-in-at-7-1-2-pounds.

[warped]

I was initially looking for 14.5" but the AA only comes with pinned flash suppressor...otherwise I would have bought one and pinned muzzle brake.

Is the Mk 10+ a two piece or 1 piece tube (i.e. do I need a special wrench for a 1 piece tube...or is it like JP/VTOR)?

That pinned on FH can be removed for $50, if you send it to me for $50 including pinning on the WCI.

You can also take it to a COMPETENT gunsmith that understands there will be no washer used with the WCI.

[BjornF16]

Any way to attach to the 16" Spartan?...(wishful thinking)

[warped]

Is that the one with the intregral FH?

If so it could be cut and threaded/recrowned but I would not do that to it if it were me.

that 18" is nice as well, remember the bbl might be heavier by a small amount but if the rifle has a light handguard and is balanced it will feel very light.

The 18" spartan and UBR stock with G10 feels very light despite its weight, it is well distributed.

[StoneTower]

Any way to attach to the 16" Spartan?...(wishful thinking)

That 16" Spartan is really only 14" with the flash suppressor machined as part of the barrel to make it a legal 16". If it is a medium/long range hunting rifle, you are going to need some length to get velocity. If it is a close range blaster hunting rifle, you don't need a high end barrel Grendel barrel and might be better served with something like a Beowulf.

[ss355]

Bjorn, if you have the coin, there's certainly no reason to pass up either Spartan barrel. If my budget barrel is any indication, the Spartans should be tack drivers. I brought up the $260 16" barrel only as less expensive alternative that's completely satisfactory for me.

To answer your question from earlier in the thread (and if my memory doesn't fail me), the AA 16" stainless is an ER Shaw barrel. The 16" chrome-lined barrels of the AA tactical model were made by Sabre, and AA might still have a supply of those. No idea who the new contractor will be for the chrome-lined tube when the Sabre supplies run out.

I wonder about the weight of the mega monolithic upper. There's only the single barrel nut holding the barrel in place instead of a barrel nut/lock ring combination, so does that buy one any reduction in total weight compared to a standard upper with a FF tube like the Vtac? Just wondering out loud. Five or more Benjamins for an upper is a tad steep for my pocketbook, so I won't have an answer until my money tree bears fruit.

[Bicyclewrench]

Not sure what you're looking at for lowers, but a Cav arms drops the weight considerably.

[BjornF16]

Here's what I've ordered so far:
AA 18" Spartan barrel/bolt
AA Upper receiver
AA Mk10 handguard
JPE aluminum adjustable gas system

This will sit on top of one of my RRA lowers.

Still need: Full mass bolt carrier
Optic mount and optics

[LRRPF52]

Bjorn,

There are some low-profile steel adjustable gas blocks available, that are probably lighter than the JP aluminum one. I stay away from aluminum gas blocks as a rule, since every one I have used has burnt out and allowed major gas leakage under it, but that was with 5.56 guns on carbine and mid-length gas systems. Supposedly, aluminum gas blocks are ok on rifle-length gas systems, but I'll never take a chance with them. Heat + aluminum tightly wrapped around steel = different expansion and contraction ratios for the metal, and then gas leaks like crazy. I even tried a 7075 T6 model with a mid-length carbine, and it short-stroked over and over again.

I took one of the JP steel adjustable gas blocks, milled off the front of it, cut lightening holes in the side of it, melted it down with a grinder with aluminum oxide impregnated cotton buffer pads, Cerakoted it, only to find that it wouldn't fit under the handguard I was using during installation process. It fit under the handguard, but you couldn't clamp the gas block down first, since the TRX requires it to be installed canted to the left, then twisted into place. The steel gas blocks do work well though. I have used them on 5.56 AR's and .308 AR10's.

LRRPF52

[warped]

Go for the Vortex, you won't regret it.

[BjornF16]

Go for the Vortex, you won't regret it.

Vortex gas block?...I can't seem to find it. Do you have a link?

[warped]

Scope not gas block

[BjornF16]

I was just beginning to research scopes. I haven't looked at Vortex for scopes, but was considering some binoculars from them.

I currently have a Nightforce on my Grendel Entry (one of the reasons it is a 11 lb gun) and a Zeiss Conquest on my 7mm Rem Mag. I'm leaning towards a lighter scope, 1-4x or 2-7x magnification for this build.

I don't know anything about Vortex, so any suggestions are welcome. I was currently leaning towards a Burris.

[warped]

Burris are good but the Vortex is that much better, plus extra features that would usually cost far more.

More bang for your buck.

http://swfa.com/Vortex-1-4x24-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44569.aspx

[BjornF16]

I really like the PST's TMCQ mrad reticle...what mount do you use?

[LRRPF52]

Bjorn,

LaRue mounts are great. I prefer 1-piece bases for the AR15-just makes things simpler for me. I also really like the DTA 1-piece bases with MOA cant options, although you don't need that for short distances. I'm not sure what the lightest/strongest/most reliable mount is out there, but LaRue comes to the top of the list for me in that regard, without any catch-me, spank-me 1/2" knobs to gouge your knuckles or smack against while carrying in the field. The LaRue SPR and LT-158 mounts are pretty snag-free and low-profile, with amazing return-to-zero characteristics.

LRRPF52

[BjornF16]

My lightweight build is starting to come together. I should have the barrel and upper components this week. Rec'd the AA lower last week...

...and this gem (Ti Muzzle Brake). Thanks Warped!

321

[StoneTower]

Burris are good but the Vortex is that much better, plus extra features that would usually cost far more.

More bang for your buck.

http://swfa.com/Vortex-1-4x24-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44569.aspx

I understand going with a lightweight optic when building a lightweight build, but that scope is not that lightweight and 16 oz. When I will looking for a scope for my Grendel, I looked at all kinds of scopes and finally chose the Bushnell 6500 2.5-15. It weighs 17 oz but the extra power is worth the small gain in weight. It is sometimes nice to be able to crank up the power before you "reach out and touch something".

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?502-A-hog-from-Tejon-Ranch

If you really need a lightweight optic and don't need magnification, think about one of these:

Leupold DeltaPoint Reflex Red Dot Sight


http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=714291

[warped]

You are welcome, it seems I have some of the happiest customers on earth, its really nice!

[warped]

I am going to get this one, I have enough stuff that will be hand me downs for my nephews already.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LaRue-Tactical-SPR-E-Scope-Mount-QD-LT-139-p/larue%20tactical%20spr-e%20lt139%201.htm

I am kind low on play funds but I can wait until OCT.

If it was going to be a bolt gun I would get a Badger.

[BjornF16]

Just rec'd my Satern barrel...gonna build the upper this weekend.

Q: What torque on barrel nut for Grendels?

[LRRPF52]

The standard for AR15's is usually between 30 and 80 foot pounds, but the barrel nut teeth really are the determining factor, since they need to be lined up for the gas tube, unless you're using a unique barrel nut without teeth.

What is recommended by armorer courses is to tighten up to the torque setting, then back it off, tighten again, and tighten to index the barrel nut teeth so that the notch is perfectly aligned for the gas tube.

Something seems to trigger my memory that I read on the old forum that it was better to go a little higher than 30 foot pounds with the Grendel, but I could be wrong. Over 80 foot pounds will crush your threads on the aluminum upper, so I would stay in between.

After building so many AR's using the torque wrench, and seeing how it really didn't matter compared to what I thought tight should be, plus the gas tube alignment, I just feel what should be right, and don't worry about it. I still tighten, then loosen 3 times to settle the barrel nut threads with the upper receiver extension threads, but the gas tube really drives this procedure.

Just make sure you insulate your upper with plenty of thick tape, even if you're using an upper clamshell in your vice. The plastic will still make marks on the anodized surface, and looks tacky...if you care about such things.

[warped]

80lbs on the Grendel, with blue loctite on gas block and bbl extension, hell I do that to even a 5.56mm.

If you have access to a mill, use the vice and bring the chuck down then clam it, make sure you use a block of hardwood or delrin between the chuck and the receiver.

Once you try it that way you will never go back.

[BjornF16]

Finished the build today. Here are the first pics. She weighs in at just under 7 lbs (without scope, no rounds in magazine). Hope to test fire tomorrow. Will post a range report then. Thanks for all y'alls help!

[LRRPF52]

If you want to cut more weight, get a PRI adjustable, low-pro gas block, versus the one you have. If that's a steel JP, they are quite heavy. If that's an Aluminum JP, you need to take it off anyway-they will leak on carbine or mid-length gas systems. Trust me...

[BjornF16]

Steel...I had originally planned on the aluminum but I heeded your advice and went with steel. It weighs 6 oz.

[LRRPF52]

I cut down one of those JP adjustables because it was just too heavy, so I made lightening cuts in both sides, cut the front down, removing one clamping screw area, and angled the front of it. I melted it down with an Aluminum oxide-impregnated buffer pad, blasted it, and Cerakoted it. It's still heavy, but about as light as it will get. I don't think I have a use for it really. It weighs 3.2 ounces now. My low-pro gas blocks weigh 1.3 ounces. I doubt the PRI weighs much more than that.

[BjornF16]

I had a false start this am (LaRue mount wasn't tight enough...my fault) but I got a start on breaking in.

This afternoon was really hot; 102F with a slight crossing breeze...but I really wanted to shoot after resolving the mount issue.

I took two new sighting shots, then loaded 5 for paper. I ended up shooting 6 since I had a flyer (#4, most likely a flinch). I've never shot in this kind of heat, so not sure what the effects of rapidly warming barrel will have.

I adjusted the gas block at 1.5 turns from fully closed. This resulted in brass landing at 4 o'clock between 6-10 feet away. Examining the necks I saw no "denting" like I get with my factory Grendel Entry upper (non-adjustable gas block).

As I shot more (didn't really wait long between shots; cleaned after every 5 or 6 for break in), the accuracy became worse. The wind started kicking up more as well. I'll go early next Saturday and see if cooler weather makes a difference.

[Variable]

Nice stick! It looks good. Don't worry about the accuracy, just keep tinkering, you'll get it.:)

[BjornF16]

BTW, the WCI brake was awesome! A real pleasure to shoot...looking forward to cooler weekends and CO in November.

[warped]

Hey, also make sure you are hydrated and lay off the coffee, get enough rest as well.

I am sure you know this but make really sure your gas block is not contacting the bag

[warped]

Steel...I had originally planned on the aluminum but I heeded your advice and went with steel. It weighs 6 oz.

If you want one in Ti, let me know, I may be running a batch once I get time to run mine.

[BjornF16]

Adjustable?

[warped]

Yep, it will be about 30 days until I can get mine done, test and be ready to run a batch.

[BjornF16]

What sort of design?...low profile? railed?

[warped]

http://swfa.com/Vortex-1-4x24-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44569.aspx

You can use your DoD discount, it is a really good scope and huge discount.

Here is one on the sample list, call ASAP

http://swfa.com/Vortex-1-4x24-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44569.aspx
Make sure you tell them you want to use your discount.

[BjornF16]

Unfortunately, I'd have to add 8.25% sales tax...

[bwaites]

Then here:

http://www.libertyoptics.com/index1.html