Variable Gantry Mount

Been thinking of getting one of these gantry mounts. Has anyone here every used one?? Just wondering if they are worth the money. Also, for the in between distances do you just hold over/under?? For example, if I get one, thinking of setting it for 200 400 600 800 and 1000. If you are using one of those mounts and want to shoot say 700 yards would you just hold over a little? Or would you try to adjust your scope (even though it would then mess up all the other setting on the mount).

www.vgmount.com

Just curious, any input welcome.

Mutt

Been thinking of getting one of these gantry mounts. Has anyone here every used one?? Just wondering if they are worth the money. Also, for the in between distances do you just hold over/under?? For example, if I get one, thinking of setting it for 200 400 600 800 and 1000. If you are using one of those mounts and want to shoot say 700 yards would you just hold over a little? Or would you try to adjust your scope (even though it would then mess up all the other setting on the mount).

www.vgmount.com

Just curious, any input welcome.

Mutt
I don't know anything about this mount but I did take a look at the link you provided and a couple of red flags were waiving. Approved by Governments and designed by Alabama Marketing would scare me away before even looking further. Sometimes good ideas come from unexpected sources but this doesn't look like one of them to me. The Alabama Marketing comment is probably referring to the web page design not the scope mount but it is still pretty scary to me, not the Alabama part, but the marketing part:0
I'm currently seeking approval of a design from 37 countries and the EU equivalent to our UL and FCC certifications but would never, never, consider placing a silly statement like approved by governments on a brochure or add.

I also read through their statements about competition and it lacks credibility to me. First off regardless of the repeatability of the mount you aren't going to use the same zeros over multiple matches. Things like lighting and mirage, and temperature, and humidity would force changes in vertical settings and wind and lighting for horizontal settings.
I would put that money towards a scope with known good repeatable turret designs instead.

If your goal is to have adjustments that are yard specific rather than click or MOA specific there are now good scope options.
Huskema is finding good favor among long range hunters. http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/huskemaw-lr-scope-review-2.php

And Leupold has added a custom inscribed turret set to your loads ballistics as well but I believe the Huskema is a little better thought out from a long range hunters perspective. I would advise these routes instead of the mount.

Thanks for the info. But, 1200 bucks for a scope just ain't gettin it. I just can't justify it to myself for a hunting rifle.

I'd be more willing to waste 400 bucks on the gantry mount and put a 200 dollar scope on it. If it doesn't work, I'd send it back. I'd still have a 200 dollar scope which is more than enough scope for a 300 to 400 yard shot for a deer. And, I'd still have 600 bucks left for ammo.

I would never spend more than 400 bucks on a scope ....... ever. Most are way over priced, Nikon, Leupold, Burris, Shepard etc..., there are just too many to count. I've had a 600 dollar leupold that ya bump on a tree and never zero's again. Hell, I've had chinese crap that held up better. The ones worth thier weight in gold like the S&B's are just way too expensive. Well worth thier price if you are a sniper or something, but way out of my range.

I'm just a poor retired/disabled guy on a fixed income that likes to shoot and hunt. I'm not one of these rich hunters that pay for those multiple thousand dollar canned hunts. So, if I don't bag one cause he is out of my range, it's just another day. I just thought if there is a mechanical means to improve the range of a mediocur scope, I'd be willing to give that a shot.

The mechanics of this mount make some sense. Set screws for each distance. Range it out with a zero'ed scope and then just increase the angle for each distance and lock it down. Seperate set screws for each distance. It sounds simple.

Honestly, if you read through thier whole website, it sounds like they are just a couple of good ole boys with a machine shop and like guns (what good ole boy doesn't) that came up with an off the wall idea. (maybe a little too creative with thier marketing ideas ..... but, most "Tacticool Scopes" out there today are much worse with thier "Used by Special Forces" B.S.)

I'm just putting feelers out to try and find some people that may have used this mount and see what they may have to say about it.

Thanks

Mutt

Thanks for the info. But, 1200 bucks for a scope just ain't gettin it. I just can't justify it to myself for a hunting rifle.

I'd be more willing to waste 400 bucks on the gantry mount and put a 200 dollar scope on it. If it doesn't work, I'd send it back. I'd still have a 200 dollar scope which is more than enough scope for a 300 to 400 yard shot for a deer. And, I'd still have 600 bucks left for ammo.

I would never spend more than 400 bucks on a scope ....... ever. Most are way over priced, Nikon, Leupold, Burris, Shepard etc..., there are just too many to count. I've had a 600 dollar leupold that ya bump on a tree and never zero's again. Hell, I've had chinese crap that held up better. The ones worth thier weight in gold like the S&B's are just way too expensive. Well worth thier price if you are a sniper or something, but way out of my range.

I'm just a poor retired/disabled guy on a fixed income that likes to shoot and hunt. I'm not one of these rich hunters that pay for those multiple thousand dollar canned hunts. So, if I don't bag one cause he is out of my range, it's just another day. I just thought if there is a mechanical means to improve the range of a mediocur scope, I'd be willing to give that a shot.

The mechanics of this mount make some sense. Set screws for each distance. Range it out with a zero'ed scope and then just increase the angle for each distance and lock it down. Seperate set screws for each distance. It sounds simple.

Honestly, if you read through thier whole website, it sounds like they are just a couple of good ole boys with a machine shop and like guns (what good ole boy doesn't) that came up with an off the wall idea. (maybe a little too creative with thier marketing ideas ..... but, most "Tacticool Scopes" out there today are much worse with thier "Used by Special Forces" B.S.)

I'm just putting feelers out to try and find some people that may have used this mount and see what they may have to say about it.

Thanks

Mutt

I can certainly appreciate your position, for most of my hunting career I was under similar financial constraints and made do with what I had or could improvise.
I killed my first dall sheep with an open sighted model 70 Winchester in .243 after working the entire summer as a guide and outfitter just to afford the avgas to get to my hunt location.
But I also learned that there was a reason that good scopes cost what they do and figured out ways to afford them. So my opinions changed as I gained those experiences. And learned that my cost saving measures seemed good at the time but I didn't fully realize the cost until my equipment let me down in the worst possible ways at the worst possible times.
Now after 40 years of hunting, I can afford the equipment that I once thought extravagant also consider it a luxury that isn't essential to success. It still boils down to understanding the limitations of the equipment you have and then operating within them.
Let us know how that mount works out.
Bob

Sure will,

It would be nice if they gave me one to use to do a review on ..... LOL. I'd pimp thier stuff ...... if it worked good.

Not even sure I'm gonna get it. I need to find some kind of feed back from actual users before I actually dump the money on the purchase. That is one thing that I do like about these forums. You can usually find some kind of information (after digging through enough crap) on just about any product out there. Which is nice for the unaware consumer.

Mutt

Mutt,

I dunno about those mounts. Leatherwood has something similar, and it too costs around 400 bucks. The difference is that it's click adjustable in 5 minute increments. But I just don't know that such a mount is needed when you got accurate drop tables in the first place.

But for 400 bucks, You could look into a Leatherwood M1000. It's a scope that cams externally. The cam is linked to magnification and the reticle is second focal plane with a scaling bracket. Basically, the bracket represents a 36" target. So half the bracket is of course 18". That means you adjust your zoom to fit your target to that scale, and whatever your magnification x 100 is your range in yards, and the scope automatically cams to that distance. So if your target is to scale with your reticle bracket, and your magnification is 5, then the target is at 500yds and the scope is already cammed to the 500yd zero.

The cam can be set to various number of trajectories. The system works reasonably well. The scope itself though, is less than perfect. Lots of the adjustments can stand to use some locktite, like on the turret set screws.

It's something to consider over a fancy mount and scope.

This depends on being calibrated to a particular load though.

Sure will,

It would be nice if they gave me one to use to do a review on ..... LOL. I'd pimp thier stuff ...... if it worked good.

Not even sure I'm gonna get it. I need to find some kind of feed back from actual users before I actually dump the money on the purchase. That is one thing that I do like about these forums. You can usually find some kind of information (after digging through enough crap) on just about any product out there. Which is nice for the unaware consumer.

Mutt
They can just send me one to review on my YouTube page, and I'll send it back when I'm done reviewing it. That is if I decide not to keep it, in which case I would pay the full retail cost.

Rambozo,

I have to admit, that leatherwood sounds pretty cool. Kind of the same concept as the Variable Mount. But integrated into the scope. The only thing that scares me about that is what happens if the scope breaks and the mounting part is still good? Kind of like having a TV with a built in DVD. When the DVD craps out your screwed. With the other mount, you could just pop off the scope and drop another 100 dollar scope on it.

I too have to admit that with accurate drop tables, it's just as easy. I'm just looking at what is the weakest link in the whole process. I think that continually adjusting a scope is what eventually does it in. Those little gears inside wear out. I would have to say (in my opinion) that the scope is actually the weakest link in the whole process.

It just comes down to this ........ one of us is going to have to just buy one and see how it works. I promise that if one of you guys buy one and do a review of how it works, I'll really consider your input ......... LOL.

Mutt

Rambozo,

I have to admit, that leatherwood sounds pretty cool. Kind of the same concept as the Variable Mount. But integrated into the scope. The only thing that scares me about that is what happens if the scope breaks and the mounting part is still good? Kind of like having a TV with a built in DVD. When the DVD craps out your screwed. With the other mount, you could just pop off the scope and drop another 100 dollar scope on it.

I too have to admit that with accurate drop tables, it's just as easy. I'm just looking at what is the weakest link in the whole process. I think that continually adjusting a scope is what eventually does it in. Those little gears inside wear out. I would have to say (in my opinion) that the scope is actually the weakest link in the whole process.

It just comes down to this ........ one of us is going to have to just buy one and see how it works. I promise that if one of you guys buy one and do a review of how it works, I'll really consider your input ......... LOL.

Mutt


Hi Mutt & Ram,

Just to let you know, my buddy had a Leatherwood scope on either his .223 or 22-250 and it wouldn't hold zero. I'm pretty sure he just sighted it in and just in shooting it was going off the zero point.

He sent it back three time and gave up after that.
I should mention that was about two to three years ago so maybe things have
hopefully improved since then.

That

...

I haven't had any problems with my M1000, aside from the need to use locktite on the turret setscrews.

Unless you unlock the cam from the magnification ring, the scope will shift zero when you adjust the magnification. It's designed that way.

Rambozo,

I have to admit, that leatherwood sounds pretty cool. Kind of the same concept as the Variable Mount. But integrated into the scope. The only thing that scares me about that is what happens if the scope breaks and the mounting part is still good? Kind of like having a TV with a built in DVD. When the DVD craps out your screwed. With the other mount, you could just pop off the scope and drop another 100 dollar scope on it.

I too have to admit that with accurate drop tables, it's just as easy. I'm just looking at what is the weakest link in the whole process. I think that continually adjusting a scope is what eventually does it in. Those little gears inside wear out. I would have to say (in my opinion) that the scope is actually the weakest link in the whole process.

It just comes down to this ........ one of us is going to have to just buy one and see how it works. I promise that if one of you guys buy one and do a review of how it works, I'll really consider your input ......... LOL.

Mutt

Mutt:

The ballistics cam will work but it probably isn't what you want as you have to basically get a mechanical zero by adjusting the optic itself to the rifle. Then theoretically the cam is adjusted. Well, it is fine in concept but not so fine in practice.

The cam on the optic needs to be cut in a manner conforming to the trajectory which will also be about impossible. Don't fear though, if you are really set on buying a poor quality scope using an obsolete design (ballistic cam) just buy one with a cam regulated for the .308 168 grain 'Match' load. It ought to be extremely close to your Grendel firing a 120 or 123 match bullet at about maximum load speed to 500 meters and pretty good to 600. Past 600 and it is kind of the luck of the draw but it shouldn't be hard for you to figure out any elevation differences from what ever your power reads.

So, if you want to spend the money on a optic that uses an obsolete design that has been proven to be a failure, go for it. Just don't pay them more for a cam 'cut' to the trajectory of your Grendel cartridge as it will most likely be a .308 cam that you will just pay twice as much for.

There is a reason why those Leatherwoods lasted about as long as the M-21's they were made for. Their design was undependable, the external adjustments became fowled with dirt, their mounts loosened up no matter what we tried, and as a result, they weren't repeatable. Forgot to mention, they fell apart after a couple of years use. I mean literally. Just remember that back then, they were made in the USA. Today I think they are made in Japan or Chinal.

Tell you what. If you want a Leatherwood, I will sell you a Leatherwood ART IV (internal adjustments) for $200.00. It is totally internal adjustment and it does work.

LR1955

Gene, did you receive your Vortex yet?

Just wondering...

I thought you ordered one.

I only suggested the scope over the gantry mount you were looking at because it would likely work just as well or better, and be cheaper. I don't have many complaints about the system; It works if you like the quick and easy solution. But as LR said, it's not perfect. The cam can be adjusted, but it's generic enough that it can't be adjusted to match your trajectory perfectly. Out to around 500 meters, it's very practical, but it must be calibrated to a particular load. That said, you aren't obligated to use the cam on the scope, and the cam can be disengaged from the magnification adjustment and the scope can then be used traditionally.

The scope itself works, but is fragile, particularly the turrets. The setscrews and base will likely require loctite to keep in place, otherwise recoil will move the scope and shift your turrets on their shafts. The turrets are large, well marked, have rings for referencing various zeroes, and have a zero stop. But for the money, you do have a lot of other options.

The gantry mount with a cheap scope will be less robust than simply a scope with proper turrets. I say get something with properly marked finger adjustable turrets, in a denomination that doesn't cause confusion, and team that with a range card for the load you are shooting. It's just better to do it the right way. consider that for 500 dollars, you can get a very functional scope, and you won't need that gantry mount.

Even still, a gantry or the leatherwood is easy. My leatherwood is currently sitting unused under my reloading bench.

I only suggested the scope over the gantry mount you were looking at because it would likely work just as well or better, and be cheaper. I don't have many complaints about the system; It works if you like the quick and easy solution. But as LR said, it's not perfect. The cam can be adjusted, but it's generic enough that it can't be adjusted to match your trajectory perfectly. Out to around 500 meters, it's very practical, but it must be calibrated to a particular load. That said, you aren't obligated to use the cam on the scope, and the cam can be disengaged from the magnification adjustment and the scope can then be used traditionally.

The scope itself works, but is fragile, particularly the turrets. The setscrews and base will likely require loctite to keep in place, otherwise recoil will move the scope and shift your turrets on their shafts. The turrets are large, well marked, have rings for referencing various zeroes, and have a zero stop. But for the money, you do have a lot of other options.

The gantry mount with a cheap scope will be less robust than simply a scope with proper turrets. I say get something with properly marked finger adjustable turrets, in a denomination that doesn't cause confusion, and team that with a range card for the load you are shooting. It's just better to do it the right way. consider that for 500 dollars, you can get a very functional scope, and you won't need that gantry mount.

Even still, a gantry or the leatherwood is easy. My leatherwood is currently sitting unused under my reloading bench.

RB:

How much play does the elevation and windage adjustment have on your ART scope? It has been many years since I handled one but I recall there wasn't a-lot of leeway when adjusting elevation and windage.

They were made in an era where internally adjustable optics were still pretty hit and miss and not particularly durable under recoil. For their time I believe they represented the most durable option for military use. Much better than the old M-84 scope you would find on the M-1903A4.

If I had one of those military ART scopes I would enjoy blasting with it myself so why not put yours back into use?

LR1955

...

LR,

I don't have an original ART, but one of the more recent ones, the "M1000". I don't know much about the originals. This one though, I know is made in China.

I haven't spent a lot of time zipping the turrets around on the thing, considering it's design, but it seems repeatable. I can't comment on it's range of adjustment. The clicks are pretty distinct, though not incredibly stiff. The cam works well enough. I've used it for HP Silhouette before, and it faired ok. It's adjustable, and there is a table for the various settings and trajectories.

Youtube video of the thing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cr1b43J_zE)

I just don't have much use for the thing right now. I will eventually put it on something, I'm sure. I did have it on one of my Grendel uppers for a while. Being that I had to send my barrel back to LW, I had to remove the scope, so I just moved that Hawke over to another rifle. I could use the Leatherwood in it's place, but I think I will just opt to put my 8x POSP Mildot on there instead. It seems to be a much better scope than the Leatherwood.

I do have to admit, that video makes that leatherwood scope look pretty damn cool. Pretty tempting.

I see this mount as a solution looking for a problem. If shooting 50 BMG or 408 Chey Tac, etc, at 2500, 3000 yds, where many high powered scopes you may want to use don't have enough internal adjustment to make it to those distances and still be zeroed or used up close, I could see some merit. It would keep you from having to swap bases with differing inclines depending upon the distance you're shooting. But that's not what you're doing.

As a replacement for adjusting the scope itself for general long range shooting? A poor substitute. Even if it is 100% accurate, repeatable and durable (a big if) with only five increments that's not even close to getting the job done. Many shy away from scopes with large adjustments such as 1/2 MOA--much less 1 MOA clicks. But even with 1 MOA clicks you have some 30+ individual settings (depending upon what you're shooting, of course) between 100 and 1000 yds. Many feel that is too coarse, and yet 5 is somehow going to be enough with this mount? No.

There certainly are external mounts designed to take the place of precise scope adjustments and do it well. They are popular with the benchrest crowd where even tiny fractions of an MOA reticle movement is too much so instead they freeze the internals of the scope and just use the mounts (mainly those using the cheaper scopes). But these aren't anything you'd want to bolt onto an AR-15:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/RFDlockedsightron001.jpg


I would never spend more than 400 bucks on a scope ....... ever. Most are way over priced,

This is putting yourself at a disadvantage needlessly. You're shooting yourself in the foot. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy:

I'm just looking at what is the weakest link in the whole process. I think that continually adjusting a scope is what eventually does it in. Those little gears inside wear out. I would have to say (in my opinion) that the scope is actually the weakest link in the whole process.

That's like saying you refuse to ever buy a car for more than $5000. Then complaining cars are generally not reliable, keep breaking down and leaving you stranded.

There are a few but not many scopes in the $400 range that will get the job done. But you don't have to spend a ton more to have a way better setup than some cheap lousy scope in that mount.

If you get a simple solid mount (Larue, ADM, Nightforce, High rings with a riser rail, etc) which are proven quantities, use the extra money you were going to put into the Gantry mount and add that to your $400 scope price, you can choose from several scopes that will track well and give you many years of reliable service (as well as having much better glass, reticle and other features than some cheap Chinese scope).

If you follow that advice, your chances success and a happy long range shooting learning experience will be increased tremendously.

Which brings me back to my original point. Just about any firearms catalog is just full of scopes (most of which cost between 600 and 900 dollars) which aren't worth squat. There are a hand full of 400 to 600 dollar scopes out there that are worth the money. The rest are just over priced mediocure crap. The other end of the spectrum is the very high dollar, known reliable scopes such as S&B (although there are a few others that just don't come to mind at the moment).

So, which very expensive mediocure scope that isn't worth 2/3 of what it costs should I run out an buy. That's the issue I have. And, quite frankly don't want to waiste my time and money on (having done so in the past).

Even if the mount is repeatable, reliable and accurate 100 % (which we by no means know at this point), you can strap on any chinese piece of crap (which isn't what the Centerpoint scopes are, they are American made cheaply priced scopes with reasonable reviews for thier price, just do a search over on snipers hide) and lock down the adjustments. What you end up with is a known 200 400 600 800 and 1000 yard zeros that aren't going to move. To me, that is much more reasonable than cranking the hell out of the turrets on an 800 dollar scope that in reality isn't any better than a 150 dollar BSA. And, ending up miserable in the end cause your expensive scope just took a crap.

Like I said before, I shoot paper at the range for fun and hunt when the season is open. Other than that, I can't justify or afford putting 1200 dollar scope and ring/mount combos onto my rifles. I have been able to get the 70 scopes from walmart to do as much and more than the 600 dollar Leupold I had bought in the past (for longer). I'm not saying it's the best scope in the world (it's only a 70 dollar scope), but it hasn't let me down in three years. And, now I have three of them on three different guns (without problems, even if one did break I'd have it swapped out in 5 minutes). I'm just looking to expand on what has worked for me so far by using another product take advantage of what already works. I just don't know if the mount is worth the money or not. So, I am still looking to hear from some people that have actaully used the Variable Mount.

I can understand what you guys are telling me. I just don't buy into the high dollar scope game. It's just that, a money making game. The buyer ends up taking it in the shorts in the end. Or buys out of that market by getting into the higher priced proven reliable market.

I do have a question. Why does Leupold take the same exact scopes they charge 800 dollars for and paint them black, paint Redfield on the side, and then sell them for 200 dollars?? Where exactly does the paint/name on the outside have anything to do with how the scope works on the inside?? And, how or should that affect price?? If the internals are exactly the same from the exact same manufacturer??? Look it up. You'll see what I mean. Id be more likely to buy the 200 dollar Redfield.

Not fighting here ....... just not pleased with the scope market.

Mutt

Why not just twist the hell out of the turrets on a cheap scope, like your centerpoint? It should work fine, provided it's repeatable, the turrets aren't marked in idiotic denominations, and the adjustment value allows for proper turret revolutions(Think 1/8th minute adjustment and 7.5 minute revolutions).

There are lots of scopes you can get for a reasonable price that would probably work just fine for you man. Take a look at the Mueller 4.5-14x40 AO Tactical (http://www.muelleroptics.com/products/MT451440), perhaps a Millet TRS (http://www.millettsights.com/scopes/trs/), Bushnell Elite 3200 (http://www.bushnell.com/products/scopes/riflescopes/elite3200/321040M/),a Super Sniper (http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P499.aspx), Belarusian POSP 8x Mildot (http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/posp/weaver-dovetail-picatinny/posp-8x42-d-pro-w-independent-focus-and-us-mildot-rangefinder-rifle-scope-weaver-version.html), Swift Tactical (http://swfa.com/Swift-4-12x40-Premier-Tactical-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P46920.aspx). All of those scopes look to be functional enough, and all of them cost less than that gantry mount alone. Consider that with the cost of the gantry mount + the cost of a cheap scope, you can likely have a pretty nice Vortex PST (http://swfa.com/Vortex-25-10x44-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44568.aspx).

Just something to consider.

The scope market leaves a bit to be desired, but you can still find stuff.

Heh Fellas,

I've got a variable gantry mount(VGM). Its mounted on on my 26" custom 6.5G (.264LBC). Chris Self of MMW is a true gentleman. He sent me the mount and said if I like it send him a check. Which I did. He made me a custom keyway insert. No problem. MMW is highly recommended.

I'm using Leupold low quick release mounts which hold a Nightforce 12x42x56BR. I opted for the VGM with the MOA dial indicator. I'm zeroing the rifle at 100, and setting the VGM presets for 200, 300, 600, 1000 with the dial indicator and my ballistics tables. I'm shooting the Hornady 123gr A-Max at 2600fps.

If you're serious about long distance shooting you need this mount. No scope in the world has the elevation needed to go from 100 to 1000 and beyond. Hell the Nightforce has 42 MOA of elevation. You'll be cranking the turrets forever. Preset the VGM and use your sighters to fine tune elevation and windage. Less work and better shooting.

Once I get this rig purring, I'll post some pictures. Upper and lower are Mega billet side charge with Young BCG and ARGold trigger. Extended gas system and handguard is WOA. Barrel is 26" custom profile .264LBC chamber Lothar Walter.

Phil

No scope in the world has the elevation needed to go
from 100 to 1000 and beyond.
Lots of scopes have enough elevation. Virtually all decent tactical scopes do. Though yours is a good example of the use I was describing above--just at much shorter distances because that particular scope has a very tiny range of adjustment (all NF tactical scopes have plenty of adjustment).

Using the pre-settings to get you "in the ballpark" and fine tuning with spotter shots is fine if that's what you want to do but many don't. My goal is to dead center the target with my very first shot. Quickly. It also sounds like you're doing all this at a formal range at nice round pre-determined distances so you have little chance of a target showing up at 476 yds, or 729 yds, or 893 yds, etc.

It sounds like it works well for what you want to do and I'm not doubting its quality. Just keep in mind we all do different things. It wouldn't work well for what I do at all and it's just not needed. When I can just dial the scope to the precise location I want to hit with the first shot, adding a mount like that just does more harm than good.
So, which very expensive mediocure scope that isn't worth 2/3 of what it costs should I run out an buy. That's the issue I have. And,
quite frankly don't want to waiste my time and money on (having done so in
the past).
Off the top of my head, here are some that would be at the top of my list:

Super Sniper 3-9X or 10X HD.
Vortex Viper 6.5-20 at minimum, PST (any of them depending on size you want) probably best choice.
Sightron SIII (various models will work).

There are more, but those are the top of the short list.
an 800 dollar scope that in reality isn't any better than a
150 dollar BSA.

I can understand being cynical, especially if you've been burned a few times in the past. But the belief that the above scopes are no better than a $150 BSA is simply incorrect. All the people who have been doing this stuff for a while and learned many things the hard way, have not simply been fooled by some grand conspiracy to take our money. If the cheap scopes were as good, we would use them. Most of us have used them, and found out they are not as good.

The buyer ends up taking it in the shorts in the end. Or buys out of that market by getting into the higher priced proven reliable market.

One thing you'll notice about some of even the better mid-grade scopes is the warranty they come with. For example, check out the PST's warranty: http://www.vortextactical.com/content/vip_warranty . That pretty much makes it impossible for you to "take it in the shorts." At the very worst, if you could not stand the scope you could run over it with your truck, have them send you a new one then sell your new in the box scope.

Of course I think if you try one, you'll end up liking it a whole bunch better than your $70 Walmart specials so there will be no need.

Why does Leupold take the same exact scopes they charge 800 dollars for and paint them black, paint Redfield on the side, and then sell them for 200 dollars??
While I don't think many of Leupold's scopes are the best scopes for the money, they aren't this bad. The Redfields are in the Rifleman and VX-1 class which are not their $800 scopes. Yes, their $800 scopes are better.

Thanks Phil,

That's the kind of info I've been looking for. I think with a cheat sheet for the in between distances (even with a much better scope) you'd be cranking alot less on your scope and be closer to a cold bore shot right off the bat. For instance. Set the Variable mount at 200 400 600 800 and 1000 yards. You range out a target at 720 yards (with your laser range finder) and you have a known distance. You bump the mount up to the 600 yard preset and then only have to adjust for 120 yards (saving a little wear and tear on the scopes innards). Or, bump it up to 800 yards and then just drop it back for 80 yards. Either way, a cheat sheet would make the smaller adjustments needed much easier off the bat. That's the thinking that has been bouncing around in my head. Your doping for the wind would not change at all. It would be the same regardless.

In the past, I have always used a cheat card with know adjustments out to 500 yards. This had always done me just fine for hunting and punching paper at the range. I now want to go out to the longer distances. I could do this with a cheat card and then adjust as needed.

Anyway, thanks for the info Phil. When you get a chance, give us a really good break down and assessment of the mount and how it works for you if you would please.

Mutt

I can understand what you guys are telling me. I just don't buy into the high dollar scope game. It's just that, a money making game. The buyer ends up taking it in the shorts in the end. Or buys out of that market by getting into the higher priced proven reliable market.

I do have a question. Why does Leupold take the same exact scopes they charge 800 dollars for and paint them black, paint Redfield on the side, and then sell them for 200 dollars?? Where exactly does the paint/name on the outside have anything to do with how the scope works on the inside?? And, how or should that affect price?? If the internals are exactly the same from the exact same manufacturer??? Look it up. You'll see what I mean. Id be more likely to buy the 200 dollar Redfield.

Not fighting here ....... just not pleased with the scope market.

Mutt

Mutt:

How about citing a source for the Leupold statement? I would be interested in reading it.

As for optics and uses. You got it. Your demands aren't as stringent as others so having a couple of $70.00 Walmart Specials is just fine. Most likely you don't shoot enough to break them in a week or two and if you do break one, throw it away and put on another. It does make economic sense until you start talking about spending $400.00 on a mount in order to make up for the known drawbacks of the inexpensive optic.

I am not defending the grossly exaggerated prices of Nightforce, Leupold, etc. Sometimes I just wonder why guys tend to think S&B is worth their grossly exaggerated price while Nightforce and Leupold are ripping off the public.

Personally, if you choose the right optic in the first place, you won't need to have anything more than a angled rail at most. The more moving parts, the greater the chances something will fail and or you will make a mistake. Since your shooting requirements certainly don't demand performance, I can see your reasoning. I don't really believe it is sound reasoning but it appears to suit your needs so go for it.

LR1955

I've seen information in several articles about the Redfields scopes. The only one that comes to mind right now that I actually have on hand is the article that was printed in the April 2010 American Rifleman. On page 60 in the following 3 to 4 paragraphs, it reads as follows (quoted from the magazine page).............

"For the uninformed observer the redfield announcement was a bit of a shock. Why would Leupold seemingly cut it's own throat by offering a quality product that uses many of the same features, the same workers and tooling, that turned Leupold into the premier brand of american made riflescope? Basically, margins are lower with the Redfield Revolution scopes, but york believes the success of the scopes will make it worth it. In other words, he hopes to make it up in volume. Judging from orders taken in January, York was more than right.
We only build to one level of quality. Said York. And, we would much rather compete with ourselves .................. "

They went on to say ....... "Leupold went on to present some of the lines and Heritage of Redfield with scopes that are based on it's existing models, but it's mostly in aesthetics. Limited options are one of the keys to low prices, and there are four introductory variables with 1" diameter tubes."

Basically, they took existing Leupold models and stuffed them into a tube that is painted matte black (which I prefer) and has the Redfield name on it. The redfield scopes cost $130 $150 $200 and $210. Basically Leupold was loosing it's ass with the $200 and below scope market. People just don't want to spend more than $300 for a scope because they know they are more than likely getting ripped off. So Leupold figured ...... let's buy out this old company. Stuff normal Leupold scocpe guts inside a tube with the other companies name on it and then sell it alot cheaper than they normally do.

Now, this in itselft isn't what makes me angry. I am more than willing to spend $200 on a new scope.

What does make me angry and it should make the loyal Leupold consumer angry is the fact that the expensive scope that they are buying (because they must have one that has the "Leupold" name on it) can easily be purchased cheaper by simply getting a Redfield scope. Different painted tube with a different name. Is Leupold letting thier normal customers know this?? Now, how is that fair to the loyal Leupold consumer??

Keep in mind. Redfield was a very respectable company in the past. They made periscopes for submarines for many many years. Very good company. The other problem is, if you think you are getting a Redfield scope, you aren't. You are getting a Leupold. So, if you don't like Leupold from the git go (like me .... I hate Leupold), you are unknowingly getting thier product shoved down your throat.

Now, what is the cheapest 4 - 12 x 40 mm scope (the cheapest I could find was $319, and that's on sale) that Leupold has on the market today?? The most expensive scope that Redfield has is $210 and it is a 4 -12 x 40 mm Leupold scope. Can you see my point??

It just struck me wrong when I read the article.

As far as my statements about the very high priced scopes, like S&B. There are a select few that are battle tested, field proven reliable and have been punished and tortured and are in use by Military and Civilian Specialists. A scope that can be run over by a truck and continue to function properly (maybe a little exaggeration on my part) and take a cold bore shot at half a mile might just be worth the money. Scopes like Leupold, Nikon, etc... Just can't stand up to the same punishment and wouldn't last more than a day or two in my opinion.
There aren't too many out there, but there are at least half a dozen that are worth thier weight in gold. Of those, I can't afford any, nor have a need for any of them. They are just way too far out of my league. I would take one if I could get one. But, I don't ever see myself strapping one onto any of my rifles any time in the future either. ....... LOL.

LR1955, I hope that is the information you were asking for. I hear where you are coming from. Spend money on reliable scope and just use the basics. It's never really let me down in the past, and that's the way I've always had to do it. I'm just looking for something to give me a little bit of advantage ...... without wasting money on something that don't work.

Thanks,

Mutt

Well, you can lead a horse to water.

I've seen information in several articles about the Redfields scopes. The only one that comes to mind right now that I actually have on hand is the article that was printed in the April 2010 American Rifleman. On page 60 in the following 3 to 4 paragraphs, it reads as follows (quoted from the magazine page).............

"For the uninformed observer the redfield announcement was a bit of a shock. Why would Leupold seemingly cut it's own throat by offering a quality product that uses many of the same features, the same workers and tooling, that turned Leupold into the premier brand of american made riflescope? Basically, margins are lower with the Redfield Revolution scopes, but york believes the success of the scopes will make it worth it. In other words, he hopes to make it up in volume. Judging from orders taken in January, York was more than right.
We only build to one level of quality. Said York. And, we would much rather compete with ourselves .................. "

They went on to say ....... "Leupold went on to present some of the lines and Heritage of Redfield with scopes that are based on it's existing models, but it's mostly in aesthetics. Limited options are one of the keys to low prices, and there are four introductory variables with 1" diameter tubes."

Basically, they took existing Leupold models and stuffed them into a tube that is painted matte black (which I prefer) and has the Redfield name on it. The redfield scopes cost $130 $150 $200 and $210. Basically Leupold was loosing it's ass with the $200 and below scope market. People just don't want to spend more than $300 for a scope because they know they are more than likely getting ripped off. So Leupold figured ...... let's buy out this old company. Stuff normal Leupold scocpe guts inside a tube with the other companies name on it and then sell it alot cheaper than they normally do.

Now, this in itselft isn't what makes me angry. I am more than willing to spend $200 on a new scope.

What does make me angry and it should make the loyal Leupold consumer angry is the fact that the expensive scope that they are buying (because they must have one that has the "Leupold" name on it) can easily be purchased cheaper by simply getting a Redfield scope. Different painted tube with a different name. Is Leupold letting thier normal customers know this?? Now, how is that fair to the loyal Leupold consumer??

Keep in mind. Redfield was a very respectable company in the past. They made periscopes for submarines for many many years. Very good company. The other problem is, if you think you are getting a Redfield scope, you aren't. You are getting a Leupold. So, if you don't like Leupold from the git go (like me .... I hate Leupold), you are unknowingly getting thier product shoved down your throat.

Now, what is the cheapest 4 - 12 x 40 mm scope (the cheapest I could find was $319, and that's on sale) that Leupold has on the market today?? The most expensive scope that Redfield has is $210 and it is a 4 -12 x 40 mm Leupold scope. Can you see my point??

It just struck me wrong when I read the article.

As far as my statements about the very high priced scopes, like S&B. There are a select few that are battle tested, field proven reliable and have been punished and tortured and are in use by Military and Civilian Specialists. A scope that can be run over by a truck and continue to function properly (maybe a little exaggeration on my part) and take a cold bore shot at half a mile might just be worth the money. Scopes like Leupold, Nikon, etc... Just can't stand up to the same punishment and wouldn't last more than a day or two in my opinion.
There aren't too many out there, but there are at least half a dozen that are worth thier weight in gold. Of those, I can't afford any, nor have a need for any of them. They are just way too far out of my league. I would take one if I could get one. But, I don't ever see myself strapping one onto any of my rifles any time in the future either. ....... LOL.

LR1955, I hope that is the information you were asking for. I hear where you are coming from. Spend money on reliable scope and just use the basics. It's never really let me down in the past, and that's the way I've always had to do it. I'm just looking for something to give me a little bit of advantage ...... without wasting money on something that don't work.

Thanks,

Mutt

Mutt:

Thanks for the citation. Obviously the lower price comes with a trade off in terms of 'options' the quotations stated. I will take a look further too but thank you for taking the time to cite.

As for Leupolds taking a beating. I have seen issued Leupolds so abused that to this day I am astonished with their durability.

Not a real fan of any single brand here. Lately I have purchased Nightforce optics. Why? Aside from clarity, durability, and confidence in their function, they offer features that I simply can't find from other companies.

That said, you really do make up a market that Leupold obviously is seeking via their Redfield purchase.

LR1955

I have a 20X SS from SWFA, very reliable, not the clearest, 120 MOA of internal adjustment tough as nails for $300 pretty much sums it up. I've had it since 2003 on a Savage M12 in .308 and it has been dropped, abused, ran out to 1000 and back to 100 for thousands of rounds (actually a lot of them were with a 6.5-284 barrel) and has never once failed to return to zero. You wouldn't believe the nuber of times that scope has been dialed to X yards and returned to it's 300 yard zero. Many times without firing a shot. Setting in an elevated deer blind one year it was dialed from it's 300 yard zero out to ranges exceeding 600 yards and back without ever firing a shot no less than 20 times until I finally took the buck of my life at 378 yards.

I have a Bushnell Elite 3200 10X Tactical, same story only a lot less time and a lot better glass. Six months so far with no problems. 100 MOA internal adjustment. Got it from CTD for around $190. My buddy has a Millett, also a great scope. Not much personal experience with it though.

Now on the other hand, I have two friends with Centerpoints. One tracked very well for about 4 months on a Grendel and had enough range to get to 800 yards, but has just recently given up the ghost so to speak. Absolute failure to return even close. The other, well if you moved it 4 MOA it went 6 (or not at all) and then couldn't retain a zero from the punishing recoil of a 5.56 AR. :rolleyes: My OPINION on the whole deal is save the money you would spend for the Gantry and put it toward a better scope like the SS, Bushnell, or a Millett. They're mediocre to good but outstanding values.

I understand that many of you have some pretty good high dollar scopes and I think that is just great. But, I didn't start this thread to compare a 70 walmart scope to all the other scopes you guys use. I do appreciate all the information and I understand that there are "some" good scopes out there.

But, that's not the intent of this thread. I am just trying to get the word on a product that I have seen online. I am asking for information from those out there that have actually used this particular mount.

I have found some other information concerning this mount (you can take it or leave it ..... just sharing it)...........

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1868392&#Post1868392

Mutt

Believe it or not many of us with high end scopes also have a few that were under $100 (not that they retailed that low)

Waiting for the right opportunity to purchase a good scope for a really low price is like a sport to us.

I have four scopes that were all under $100

Two of them are Tasco Varmint scopes that are 2.5-10x with mildot, I think I gave $80 for each over ten years ago.

They stay zeroed, have good enough glass and have lasted.

The other two are Pentax scopes 3.5-10x and 4.5-12x they are the same as Pentax scopes that sell for much higher money but do not have all the extras found on the higher priced scopes.

They do not have an adjustable objective, but parallax is almost non existent.

They also do not have side focus.