PDW trunk gun quest

[BjornF16]

Fellers

I am looking for a "good" personal defense, cr4p hits the fan, trunk gun. I'm not interested in an AK47 since I primarily own AR15s or bolt guns. I know there is a lot of disinformation out there and I'm trying to weed through it all.

My expertise has been in M61A1 Vulcan when it comes to gun employment...so I need some help here.

My considerations:

1. 5.56 Nato - I've been told there are windshield penetration problems (true or false?). What round would be best?

2. Grendel - what round would be best?

3. 5.7mm x 28 - (I currently own an AR57, but am concerned about windshield, metal penetration). I like the 50 round magazines, but the only ammo I have is the -197SR.

4. 300 AAC Blackout - overkill?

I figure 16" barrel because of the legal ramifications of someone (wife, child) borrowing the car (or 14.5" with perm attached muzzle device).

I'm currently reloading with Grendel, and have the setup for .223. I had considered reloading 5.7x28, but that is not an easy round.

Thoughts?

[LR1955]

Fellers

I am looking for a "good" personal defense, cr4p hits the fan, trunk gun. I'm not interested in an AK47 since I primarily own AR15s or bolt guns. I know there is a lot of disinformation out there and I'm trying to weed through it all.

My expertise has been in M61A1 Vulcan when it comes to gun employment...so I need some help here.

My considerations:

1. 5.56 Nato - I've been told there are windshield penetration problems (true or false?). What round would be best?

2. Grendel - what round would be best?

3. 5.7mm x 28 - (I currently own an AR57, but am concerned about windshield, metal penetration). I like the 50 round magazines, but the only ammo I have is the -197SR.

4. 300 AAC Blackout - overkill?

I figure 16" barrel because of the legal ramifications of someone (wife, child) borrowing the car (or 14.5" with perm attached muzzle device).

I'm currently reloading with Grendel, and have the setup for .223. I had considered reloading 5.7x28, but that is not an easy round.

Thoughts?

BF16:

You stated ""good" personal defense, cr4p hits the fan, trunk gun."

If the 'cr4p hits the fan' scenario occurs, peculiar and uncommon cartridges will be of no value to you. Stick with the 5.56 as it is a very common cartridge and parts for 5.56 AR's are readily available -- such as bolts for when (not if) you shear a bolt lug.

If you start blasting at someone who is behind a windshield in a vehicle -- I figure that person would, as a minimum, become quite distracted seeing as how he is witnessing his windshield disintegrate in front of his eyes. From the flanks, any 5.56 bullet will go clean through anything but an up armored vehicle. And, I doubt a Grendel would do any better as the velocities of the Grendel's are immensely slower than a 5.56.

So, get a reliable 5.56 Carbine, a M-68, a rack and eight or so 30 round magazines of the issued M-855 and you are set. Won't win the National Championships with one but it will do the job in the conditions you identified. And, you can find ammo and spare parts over the entire country.

300 AAC Blackout?

LR55

[bwaites]

I'd definitely agree with LR1955. There are only 3 or 4 cartridges to consider for SHTF guns, and you rule out 2, 7.62x39 panda 5.45x39 by your choice of rifle. That leaves 5.56 and .308. You rule out .308 by speccing AR15.

That leaves 5.56. Stock up on green tip and mags and go for it!

[stanc]

I am looking for a "good" personal defense, cr4p hits the fan, trunk gun.

My considerations:

1. 5.56 Nato - I've been told there are windshield penetration problems (true or false?). What round would be best?
Windshield issues w/M855 Ball: True.

Best commercially available windshield/barrier load is probably Mk318, but there are other good factory loadings, such as those with TSX or TBBC bullets.

2. Grendel - what round would be best?
Best windshield/barrier load is AA's 120gr TSX.

3. 5.7mm x 28 - (I currently own an AR57, but am concerned about windshield, metal penetration). I like the 50 round magazines, but the only ammo I have is the -197SR.
Don't know what is the best load in this caliber.

4. 300 AAC Blackout - overkill?
IIRC, there are only two factory loads: 123gr FMJ, and a heavy bullet, subsonic round. I've seen no info on barrier defeat capability of either.

Thoughts?
There is some merit to the "commonly available caliber" idea advanced by LR1955, but IMO it depends on what type of SHTF scenario you envision.

If you're thinking of it being just you, your wife and kids, against whatever "hostiles" you happen to encounter, any caliber will do. That's because one shooter against multiple, comparably-armed opponents, is unlikely to survive long enough for ammo resupply to become a concern. And if you make it SOP to avoid combat, a good basic load of ammo will last quite a while, perhaps longer than the SHTF situation.

OTOH, if you figure on being part of a large group, a common (and preferably, commonly-available) caliber would seem to be a good idea.

[BjornF16]

Thanks for your replies!

The good news is I already have my SHTF gun then...RRA Elite CAR. Need to stockpile ammo for it and some extra bolts.

What do y'all suggest for long term ammo storage? I have several of the Cabela's dry ammo boxes, but I'm guessing there is more to proper storage than dropping ammo in the can.

I may buy the AA 14.5" upper as well...120 grains has to be better then 62, right? Or maybe a Beowulf? Besides, one can never have too many guns:D



300 AAC Blackout?


LR55 - see http://300aacblackout.com/ It is 7.62 x 35 using standard AR15 5.56 bolt, magazines.

Björn

[BjornF16]

If you're thinking of it being just you, your wife and kids, against whatever "hostiles" you happen to encounter, any caliber will do. That's because one shooter against multiple, comparably-armed opponents, is unlikely to survive long enough for ammo resupply to become a concern.


I am blessed...my wife and kids are all shooters.;)

[BjornF16]

True enough...I was thinking more of being holed up on some acreage...hopefully it will not come to that and I wholeheartedly agree with the SOP of avoiding combat where possible.

[LRRPF52]

What was wrong with the M61A1 Vulcan...:rolleyes:

P.S.: For those of you with dyslexia, that's not an M16A1.

[BjornF16]

What was wrong with the M61A1 Vulcan?


Nothing...I can't afford the upkeep!...

...but I do have a barrel mounted on the wall (see pic)...

317

[RangerRick]

True enough...I was thinking more of being holed up on some acreage...hopefully it will not come to that and I wholeheartedly agree with the SOP of avoiding combat where possible.

It's sad that things are going such that a SHTF scenario now seems plausible in this country, and not just in a hurricane/earthquake/disaster incident.

[Variable]

It's sad that things are going such that a SHTF scenario now seems plausible in this country, and not just in a hurricane/earthquake/disaster incident.

Very true! It doesn't come up much on the Grendel board, but I've been getting gloomier and doomier for years!!! I've pretty much layed off recreational anything, and proceeded to prepping as best I can. I just haven't said much since I didn't want to seem too "tinfoil'ish".

I have a pile of 5.56 Colts laying around from when I could still afford toys: 11.5", Multiple 14.5", some 16'ers, and a couple of 20's, with piles of mags and ammo. Mostly M193, M855, M856, and some Mk262 Mod 1. I also have an Ares Shrike, but I don't take it all that seriously though. It's just a toy I currently can't afford to shoot.:o I will always maintain 5.56 for commonality if displaced.

I have three Grendels for at home use (10.5", 14.5", and 19.5"). With a moderately sized pile of Wolf 120 MPT and Hornady 123 Amax ammo. I have other loads and plenty of reload fixings. I'd opt for Grendel in my home AO, but would defer to 5.56 if displaced.

I also have 5.7 (SBR PS90 and Five Seven IOM), and mostly SS197 and SS192 ammo with some small stashes of SS190 and SS191. I was intrigued with this platform for a while, but I'm still leary of trusting it. I did kill a full size whitetail doe (broke leg) with a single broadside heart shot at twenty yards with the SS192 round, but that was ideal conditions and placement.... Were I to ever have to bug home or E&E on foot back from someplace, it'd be great to only have to hump a suppressed PS90 SBR and an IOM pistol, but I'd feel much better with at least a 5.56 platform.

I'm still favoring the 6.5 Grendel, but retaining the 5.56 for fallback in the event of being cut off from the home stash and having to scrounge/trade/beg elsewhere.

If the rest of the country would wake up and Grendelize I wouldn't have to worry about it.LOL For that reason I've Grendelized a number of my friends in my local area too.;)

[Variable]

Nothing...I can't afford the upkeep!...

...but I do have a barrel mounted on the wall (see pic)...

317
Heh Heh! That's pretty cool! I have a GAU-8 30mm barrel gathering dust in the corner of my buddies gun shop, but I had to buy it, so it doesn't have any real sentimental value. I wish I could do something with it too, but these day's that just ain't gonna happen anymore.;)

[steel89]

Not such a good idea to be discussing personal preperations in a public forum that I'm sure is closely monitored. No tinfoil hat here. After seeing what DOJ and BATF have put together in the recent past, I'd rather hold my cards close to my chest and Stack my own deck.

[fanofflyn]

Auto Ordinance TA-5 Pistol. Why not? .45 ACP, 20 to 50 rounds. SHTF is short range in my mind. Yes my 16 inch double fluted Satern Barreled AR with integral flash hider (so it's really a light weight 14 incher with 2 inches of integral flash hider) that weighs 4.5 pounds unloaded is not a bad choice either, and I already own it. So it's currently my trunk mounted gun, with my .45 Kimber next to my hand in the cockpit. But I thought the TA-5 still looks cool, lol.

--fanofflyn

[Clod Stomper]

I've heard this same theme over and over. Buy a 5.56, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39, etc. for SHTF because they are very common rounds. But I must respectfully disagree. I am thoroughly of the belief that if indeed the S does HTF, you had better have what you need with you or stored away at your "compound" when it does. Case in point: as of November 5, 2008, which rounds could NOT be found at Walmart, or pretty much anywhere? And that wasn't even SHTF (well, I suppose that depends on your perspective). I couldn't even find .22 LR at Walmart for over a year. At least in bulk.

IMO, the best reason for choosing the common rounds is because you can stock up on them RIGHT NOW at a reasonable price.

One good reason to choose the Grendel for a SHTF round is: 1) To have a round that fits in the AR and is good up close and out to at least 500 yards. 2) One can stock up on inexpensive 7.62x39 which can be necked down to work in a Grendel if necessary. Yes, even steel cased ammo.

And IF one was far from home when the SHTF and didn't take plenty of ammo, they would want a rifle chambered in a round that is fairly common, but which everyone and their sister isn't going to be running out to buy. Don't know, maybe .270 Win or 7-08?

I'm not predicting bad stuff is gonna happen. But I know more and more people who are getting worried. And they are arming themselves and stocking up on basic necessities. Of course, there have always been folks like that. So, who knows?

Will

[rkflorey]

If you are seriously worried about glass penetration and still having enough bullet on the back side to do the necessary damage, you can't go wrong in .223 with the 60 gr. Nosler partion. Even in the 10.5 inch guns they hold together well and have little or no deviation at less than 30 deg. angle on the windshield. I was involved in the testing of every commercially loaded 223 we could get our hands on and it beat all hands down including the Military steel penetrator. Most fragmented so badly that penetration in geletin was minimal. The Nosler retained 90+% of its mass and penetration was 10 or more inches.

[pinzgauer]

What was wrong with the M61A1 Vulcan...:rolleyes:

Nothing an Avenger can't fix:

318319

[Variable]

Very true. I recall reading a quote from some ancient Greek, I think it was, who lamented how the world was going to Hell...and that was over two thousand years ago!

Of course, next year is 2012, when EVERYTHING is supposed to end... :eek:
Oh, I don't think the world is going to end, I just think our level of comfort in it is dangerously nearing a dramatic change. I'm not just talking about the debt limit drama or any particular one of many minor or major factors, it's when they are combined things can happen. The totality of our current circumstances just seem to be screaming serious lifestyle downgrade ahead, with periods of potential strife and a 30% chance of misery.LOL

[Variable]

Why? D'ya think you're going to get out of life alive? :cool:

You're too young to be getting gloomier and doomier. Maybe you'd be in a better state of mind if you spent more time shooting, and less time worrying about the end of the world?
Call it a response to the increased responsibility of family.:p;) I have no notions of escaping alive, but I do need to live as long as I can to help do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of my progeny. I would prefer they thrive, and do so in freedom.

When it was just me, I didn't worry nearly so much.:cool:

[Variable]

Not such a good idea to be discussing personal preperations in a public forum that I'm sure is closely monitored. No tinfoil hat here. After seeing what DOJ and BATF have put together in the recent past, I'd rather hold my cards close to my chest and Stack my own deck.

Quite the contrary, dear Sir.:D No one here is actively advocating the violent overthrow of the Federal Govt. Nor are they discussing anything else illegal. As a FLEO, I'm fairly fluent in that. I work for a very large Federal Law Enforcement Agency (not allowed to publicly divulge which one-- liability), and no one here has ever said anything even remotely wrong to my recollection. I'm also not appointed to monitor anyone either.LOL There is a huge difference between giving one's opinion and seriously advocating violence against our elected govt. in a public forum. It's not hard to keep it between the lines at all.:)

Heck even FEMA (shudder, followed by no comment...) is trying to encourage people to prepare for potential future calamity.http://www.fema.gov/areyouready/

Heck, since the grasshoppers won't listen, they've even stooped to using "Zombies" in an effort to market a preparedness mindset. http://blog.fema.gov/2011/05/from-cdc-preparedness-101-zombie.html


http://www.cdc.gov/images/campaigns/emergency/zombies2_300x250.jpg

Now if you mean that you want to practice good OPSEC about your own personal preps to keep them from being compromised by those who would seek to rob you--- then I think you certainly have a good point. We should always practice at least some modicum of that.

As for me breaking OPSEC on guns? I don't give out too much useful personal info for those private individuals who might seek to rob me. As for the .gov??? I've filed so many form 1's and form 3's with the ATF for registration of my own weapons that I hardly care what they know about me. They already know I have a pile of legal weapons, so what's left for me to hide?LOL Between that and my occupation I pretty much just presume that every single thing I say or do is subject to possible scrutiny and comport myself appropriately with that in mind. I already freed my mind, so my @$$ just followed...:D

[Variable]

If you are seriously worried about glass penetration and still having enough bullet on the back side to do the necessary damage, you can't go wrong in .223 with the 60 gr. Nosler partion. Even in the 10.5 inch guns they hold together well and have little or no deviation at less than 30 deg. angle on the windshield. I was involved in the testing of every commercially loaded 223 we could get our hands on and it beat all hands down including the Military steel penetrator. Most fragmented so badly that penetration in geletin was minimal. The Nosler retained 90+% of its mass and penetration was 10 or more inches.
I wish we had some glass data on the Wolf 120 MPT and the Hornady 123's out of the Grendel. I guess I should load up the 120 Barne's bullets, but I'm poor and lazy, so I'd rather sit on my current stash if they were sufficient.;)

[sloan]

The boys an i did some non scienctfical testing on wind shields,an110 barnes 29.5 tac screams through the ones we shot at,the 110 bends when it hit the back door jam,we shot at least 30 rounds,dam things are hard to stop.We call these go ahead an get behind your car,more schrapnel involved,we like them....sloan

[LR1955]

I've heard this same theme over and over. Buy a 5.56, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39, etc. for SHTF because they are very common rounds. But I must respectfully disagree. I am thoroughly of the belief that if indeed the S does HTF, you had better have what you need with you or stored away at your "compound" when it does. Case in point: as of November 5, 2008, which rounds could NOT be found at Walmart, or pretty much anywhere? And that wasn't even SHTF (well, I suppose that depends on your perspective). I couldn't even find .22 LR at Walmart for over a year. At least in bulk.

IMO, the best reason for choosing the common rounds is because you can stock up on them RIGHT NOW at a reasonable price.

One good reason to choose the Grendel for a SHTF round is: 1) To have a round that fits in the AR and is good up close and out to at least 500 yards. 2) One can stock up on inexpensive 7.62x39 which can be necked down to work in a Grendel if necessary. Yes, even steel cased ammo.

And IF one was far from home when the SHTF and didn't take plenty of ammo, they would want a rifle chambered in a round that is fairly common, but which everyone and their sister isn't going to be running out to buy. Don't know, maybe .270 Win or 7-08?

I'm not predicting bad stuff is gonna happen. But I know more and more people who are getting worried. And they are arming themselves and stocking up on basic necessities. Of course, there have always been folks like that. So, who knows?

Will

Will / Guys:

In 2008 we could not get Grendel ammunition anywhere. Period. Not from AA, not from Midway -- no where.

Right now when the MPT runs out it may be months to a year before you see any more due to production runs and importation.

And stalking up on Hornady or AA ammo is OK providing you are wealthy. But that leaves the real question.

You would actually trust your life to a Grendel with its CP magazines? How fast are you at replacing a bolt when you shear a lug? Many years around the issued 5.56 and I have seen one bolt lug shear. I have owned Grendels for six years and have six or eight bolts sitting on a shelf with sheared lugs. Both 7.62 and Grendel bolts. And no CP magazine I have owned have I been able to trust that it will function. Not the 10 round, 17 round, or 28 round.

OTOH, with every 5.56 I also own, I just don't seem to have function problems and so far I haven't sheared any bolt lugs. I have used magazines dating back to the 1960's, magazines that Army claimed to be bad, magazines made by the lowest bidder, no name magazines, Wolf ammo, issued ammo, hand loaded ammo, mixed lots of ammo, bullets of different lengths and designs. All fired through chambers ranging from (real) match chambers on Match rifles through blasting chambers on mid range quality blasting carbines. Can't remember the last time I had a problem with function.

No big deal.

LR55

[steel89]

[QUOTE=Variable;7482]Quite the contrary, dear Sir.:D No one here is actively advocating the violent overthrow of the Federal Govt. Nor are they discussing anything else illegal.

Of course no one is discussing anything advocating a violent overthrow of our government or anything currently illegal. Things change, and what I see and those who are not blind to what is happening see, is that a play is being made to dramatically change the balance of power in this country and our current freedoms are a threat to that shift. If you could ask the dissidents in China, Syria, Iran and Venezuela if giving up personal information or speaking out publicly is a good idea, I think you would find out quickly how many ways information can be used against you. I experianced their fears first hand in Chile a long time ago.
All I'm saying is...
I've found as a well trained and deeply experianced professional, in the art of observation and LE, to trust my instincts. Surely you understand that aspect.
No I don't think what we are discussing is a threat to our personal OPSEC, now, with our Constitutional protections in place. My instincts are tempered but are saying it's time to get the sun at your back quietly dig in.

[LRRPF52]

Even if out "most-trusted" representatives in D.C. grow morals over night, and actually constrain themselves to our Nation's laws, we still have a simmering surge of violent criminal enterprises on the rise throughout the country, as they use our Interstate Highway system to traffic their products. If you were to find yourself a target for a car-jacking by highly-motivated and determined criminals with years of experience, a good car gun PDW would be the best thing you could have to stand a chance in an unavoidable gunfight.

Analyzing the dash cam videos of LEO's who have been gunned-down by narco-traffickers makes you realize right away that these are very decisive individuals who don't hesitate to unleash a barrage of fire on anyone who gets in their way. If they are driving or riding in a vehicle loaded out with large volumes of narcotics and cash, they are rarely alone, and carry firearms that are meant to win the fight with other armed threats.

They often have 1911's chambered in .38 Super, which is legal in Mexico since it's not a military cartridge, or have shown a preference over the past decade leaning more and more towards the FN 5.7 pistols with 20rd mags, which are compact, lightweight, and most LEO's will have to do a mag change before the thugs will...if only pistols are involved.

While these guys are black-market businessmen, they usually prefer to maintain a low profile and just drive the routes, with no intention of making contact with potential intercepts. If things get nasty, and they have been forced to ditch their vehicle, I can see a lot of scenarios where they would resort to a hasty car-jacking after burning down our Peace Officers, placing any of us in potential danger.

This is why I AM an advocate of the car-gun PDW, and I have been thinking of a SBR Mini-14 folder for that purpose. A 10" Suppressed AR would be another great choice. I do understand the likelihood of actually needing one is pretty low among civvies where I live, and it introduces the potential for theft more than anything, so these pros and cons need to be weighed when deciding on whether to go the car gun PDW route or not. If I was still living in some of the other major cities I have lived in, it would be a much higher priority I think, but would be much more difficult or impossible to legally-obtain due to State laws in most of those areas.

For example, if you live in California, New York, or Chicago, the elected officials there don't recognize your right to maintain your life while you are out and about conducting your normal activities day-to-day, while violent criminals will use whatever weaponry they can obtain to protect themselves, or violate others. If you did dare to discreetly bear arms as the Constitution implies, and were forced to protect yourself and family from imminent death, rape, or bodily harm, you would be prosecuted as a criminal by the local DA...if you actually prevailed in the violent encounter.

In my State, the opposite is true, which is really one of the top 2 reasons I live here. Freedom isn't just an idea to those who taste it daily...and I truly love and cherish freedom, believe me I do.

[BjornF16]

Car gun PDW: What about an AR based pistol...say 7" or 10" barrel?...or what about a Sig 556 with barrel cut down for SBR?...I've heard Ruger isn't very accomodating with their modified rifles.

I've also handled a FNH FS2000. It's pricey but felt good ergonomically (didn't shoot it though).

[Clod Stomper]

Will / Guys:

In 2008 we could not get Grendel ammunition anywhere. Period. Not from AA, not from Midway -- no where.

Right now when the MPT runs out it may be months to a year before you see any more due to production runs and importation.

And stalking up on Hornady or AA ammo is OK providing you are wealthy. But that leaves the real question.

You would actually trust your life to a Grendel with its CP magazines? How fast are you at replacing a bolt when you shear a lug? Many years around the issued 5.56 and I have seen one bolt lug shear. I have owned Grendels for six years and have six or eight bolts sitting on a shelf with sheared lugs. Both 7.62 and Grendel bolts. And no CP magazine I have owned have I been able to trust that it will function. Not the 10 round, 17 round, or 28 round.

OTOH, with every 5.56 I also own, I just don't seem to have function problems and so far I haven't sheared any bolt lugs. I have used magazines dating back to the 1960's, magazines that Army claimed to be bad, magazines made by the lowest bidder, no name magazines, Wolf ammo, issued ammo, hand loaded ammo, mixed lots of ammo, bullets of different lengths and designs. All fired through chambers ranging from (real) match chambers on Match rifles through blasting chambers on mid range quality blasting carbines. Can't remember the last time I had a problem with function.

No big deal.

LR55

LR55,

Point very well taken. Allow me to further clarify. I fully do not expect to find anything useful in a retail establishment in an "emergency" situation unless I'm the first in line. That's why I recommend stocking up as one is able. So it depends on a person's personal financial situation whether they want a common military round (cheap) or a less common, more expensive round, such as .30-30, .270, .260, whatever.

The bolt and mag situation with the Grendel has concerned me. I've hoped for better mags, but those haven't surfaced yet. I can change a bolt pretty fast when not under stress, but I really don't want to have to do that. Someday, I hope to upgrade to the AR Performance bolts and extensions when I can afford it. But I'm not there yet, either.

So, being a belt and suspenders sort of person (figuratively), I recommend having barrels or rifles in each of the common rounds, with enough ammo and replacement parts for each.

I also am looking at the 6.5 PCC (still a wildcat, but barrels are available from Black Hole Weaponry) as a potential alternative to the Grendel. It solves the mag and bolt problem. I already have plenty of cases and bullets. The downside is less velocity than the Grendel, but still better ballistics than the 5.56. I just really, really like the 6.5 bullet diameter, so I can't completely give up on it.

Steel89, I also agree with you about OPSEC. However, I'm banking on being a very low-priority target to the JBTs. As far as the common street punks? Well...

Stay safe,

Will

[Variable]

Possibly the worst SHTF scenario is an infestation of zombies. :eek:

I discovered today that a person can build an AR-15 with a lower receiver designed specifically to deal with this threat. :cool:
http://rainierarms.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/zombie1.jpg
FEMA and the CDC approve of this message....







Yeah right, just kidding!!!LOL

[Variable]

My replies are below. I'm not trying to antagonize or belittle you, heck I don't even entirely disagree with you. I just don't see anyone here having anything to worry about at the level we currently discuss things.


Things change, and what I see and those who are not blind to what is happening see, is that a play is being made to dramatically change the balance of power in this country and our current freedoms are a threat to that shift.
To a certain degree I agree with you on that point, but the only thing that can be done about it at this point in time is to shine the light on what they are doing wherever possible and motivate others to become involved politically to stop it. Kinda that whole Tea Party thing that is going on right now as we speak... Just rolling over and not discussing it certainly won't make it go away. Regardless of country. Silence and darkness are exactly the environmental conditions within which they thrive.



If you could ask the dissidents in China, Syria, Iran and Venezuela if giving up personal information or speaking out publicly is a good idea, I think you would find out quickly how many ways information can be used against you. I experianced their fears first hand in Chile a long time ago.
On that point you'd be in trouble with the rest of us by simply being registered and posting here-- if they were holding such a tight standard. Are you an NRA member?(don't feel obligated to answer!:D), if so: then you are already a card carrying member of a far more dangerous organization with many times more political involvement than the Grendel board. They'd need to round up 4 million card carrying members before they had to worry if they'd missed any here for mearly discussing how we think things are headed down the crapper.


They are welcome to "list" me as they like, they already have my photographs, finger prints, DNA, signatures, video, etc., etc., etc. What more could "they" want? :confused:



All I'm saying is...
I've found as a well trained and deeply experianced professional, in the art of observation and LE, to trust my instincts. Surely you understand that aspect.
No I don't think what we are discussing is a threat to our personal OPSEC, now, with our Constitutional protections in place. My instincts are tempered but are saying it's time to get the sun at your back quietly dig in. Any hypothetical future political entity so bent on tracking down possible dissidents (for political thought in conjunction/proximity to a gun board) would spend so much time backcrawling the great web cache that we'd die of natural causes first. Heck, just Arfcom alone would take at least a hundred years to unwind.;)

Could the U.S. have a dark political future ahead? You betcha, but only if we don't speak out truthfully and openly while educating others and actively participating in the legal political venues we still have currently open to us (as so brilliantly provided to us by the astoundingly prescient founding fathers our Creator saw fit to bless this nation with!!!!).

Only then, and IF that should fail, would we be ultimately forced to resort to our 2nd ammendment rights (as also so brilliantly provided by those wise old fellas!).

My Oath(s) were all sworn to uphold and protect the U.S. Constitution. I take them very seriously. No dictators or grand imperial leaders for me.:D

[steel89]

Philosophically, I know we are all on the same page. Seeing the same darkness approaching, some will shine a light outward, some will surround themselves with light and some of us will blend into the darkness. Goals may be the same just the approaches to getting through are different. I respect your views and opinions, and take it all in.

PDW trunk guns are without a doubt indispensible. Their number and design will be dictated by our own personal environments (SHTF or not). Those same 'trunk guns' will probably become a large part of any future defensive position or holding a perimeter position. So the Gren tactical fits my bill, given the proper equipping. Just one piece of the survival puzzle, but critical.

[txgunslinger]

so you say you want an AR that is good for personal defense and will go through a barrier, in this case I can think of nothing better than the .50 beowulf, I know it may seem a little overkill, but I see it like this, there is a big difference between self defense and hunting, its not like your trying to save the meat of a perpatrator. Ammo may not be real easy to get but you should be able to buy or reload plenty for your needs. If I were buying or building an AR for personal defense this would be my go- to caliber, but that is just me. If I am protector me and or my family I want a one shot stop.

[bwaites]

so you say you want an AR that is good for personal defense and will go through a barrier, in this case I can think of nothing better than the .50 beowulf, I know it may seem a little overkill, but I see it like this, there is a big difference between self defense and hunting, its not like your trying to save the meat of a perpatrator. Ammo may not be real easy to get but you should be able to buy or reload plenty for your needs. If I were buying or building an AR for personal defense this would be my go- to caliber, but that is just me. If I am protector me and or my family I want a one shot stop.

Definitely a one shot stop, at least as much as can be expected. BUT....have to be careful with penetration!

Most of the Beowulf ammo will go right through any body, including a bear, at close range.

[LRRPF52]

Yes, In an urban environment, you don't want to be launching projectiles through your intended target(s) and then off into innocents. 5.56 FMJ's and M855 usually sail right through vehicles, in my experience, even front-to-back. Maybe ballistic tips would be a good idea for a car gun, but you also have to think about windshield penetration, often after penetrating from within your windshield if you are nose-to-nose with another vehicle filled with imminent threats.

Whatever I'm shooting, I won't be relying on one round to do the trick, as the first round usually breaks the ice in a rapid string into my aiming point on the smallest point of the target being engaged. This is where I lean towards magazine capacity and controllability, so I can keep rounds within a 2-6" circle under rapid fire, depending on the distances. For me, 5.56 from a well-built AR fills the bill right now. I know of no other 5.56 carbine that can match the speed and controllability of an AR for these types of scenarios.

I would say the most important aspect of this discussion is training, not necessarily weapons selection. Due to the NFA laws, it is more difficult to obtain the properly-profiled SBR's appropriate for this type of work. I will also say that if you have to shoot from within your vehicle without ear pro in, you WILL suffer significant hearing loss. There will also be dangerous levels of glass particulate dust that is hazardous to breathe.

If you can't afford to participate in professional training events where shooting from within vehicles is conducted, you can practice from a simple arrangement of chairs on the range. Use barricades to simulate the dash, and imagine where passengers, windows and pillars will be, constraining your fields of fire. Then practice shooting from a seated position to your left and right, as if shooting from the driver's and passenger side windows. I also suggest incorporating those who you drive with frequently to participate in this training. You can also practice dry in your vehicle in the garage, with the garage door closed as to not spook any neighbors.

There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the FBI Miami Shootout when it comes to car guns, shooting from within vehicles, retention of eyeglasses, pistols falling on the floor in vehicle impact and getting lost, range habits gone horribly wrong in life-or-death shootings, mag or cylinder capacity, back-up guns, malf's, reloading under fire, shooting and moving, using cars as weapons, communication, and so forth. The SBR Mini-14 with folding stock and coupled 30rd mags proved to be the most formidable weapon in that encounter, especially in the hands of a better-trained fighter, regardless of the well-honed marksmanship skills of the FBI agents.

The use of vehicles as weapons by the FBI gave them a major advantage in the initial stage of the encounter, constraining Platt and Matix to a limited area of maneuver, after disabling their vehicle and trapping it between two other parked cars. Once Platt started firing effectively on the agents from within the car with the Mini-14, he turned the tables on them, even though they had totally surrounded him and Matix, who had been effectively disabled with a basal skull fracture from a +P+ .38 Special.

There are way more things to think about than gun play and vehicle handling/dynamic driving, while training for these encounters is restricted to extremely-small Government, LE, and Military circles. Learning to be aggressive while keeping a cool head is the basis to start from, when preparing for a scenario where a car gun will come into play. One of the first drills is to learn how to maneuver your vehicle out of the kill zone, often while driving in reverse with many sharp turns without hitting obstacles, as your passenger places rapid strings of fire effectively into the threats. There are only a handful of people in the world that train on these skill sets.

[bwaites]

Anyone who thinks you won't need it here needs to read this and pay attention!

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/126825018.html

[LRRPF52]

One of the biggest misconceptions about Law Enforcement is that their job is to protect you. It is not. It cannot be, given the basic limitations of physics. Their job is to protect the sense of societal order in municipalities, counties, States, and Nations. They are barely equipped to protect themselves in most cases, and most officers don't receive enough training to do even that.

When you are in the middle of a life-or-death scenario that usually comes up on people in a surprising fashion, 911 is minutes away, and response times to violent crimes reported as being perpetrated by multiple suspects don't exactly increase the response times. What person or persons want to rush to their own possible death, whether wearing a uniform or not...

Somewhere along the way, people have surrendered their personal responsibility to assert and defend their own lives and security to unseen, unqualified, absent entities that simply don't exist. The sooner you realize that YOU'RE IT, the more engaged you should become in maintaining a healthy personal protection posture.

[BjornF16]

Due to the NFA laws, it is more difficult to obtain the properly-profiled SBR's appropriate for this type of work.


LR52 - If no restrictions, what would you suggest?

What is the possibility of getting both my wife and I registered on an SBR? I'd like her to have access, even when I'm not around.

[Variable]

That would be best served by the SBR belonging to a "NFA Trust" that includes the two of you. That way you don't get snared by one of you being in possession of NFA that isn't registered to them..... It's a lengthy explanation (that I can't answer all of today--in a hurry) but you'll find info on the NFA related boards (subguns.com, silencertalk.com, etc.) HTH


ETA: Found a second chance to throw something in.LOL

Here: http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/1/12/gun-nfa-trust-frequently-asked-questions

Pop some popcorn and pull up a comfy chair before starting to learn how to untangle the delightful world of NFA regulation.

[LRRPF52]

Variable,

That's an interesting suggestion, as I imagine both people could be co-owners/trustees of the trust. Good idea.

Bjorn,

For reliability, an 11.5" or 12.5" AR is hard to beat with the short AR's, as long as the barrel is made by a reputable manufacturer with the know-how on gas port diameter. Things start to get sketchy from there as you get into the 10" barrels, but some apparently are reliable with the right gas ports, gas system and recoiling parts balance, and ammunition. I can't recall having any malf's with all the 11.5" guns I've owned or used, and I have owned 3 different ones in the past. The only time I've seen malf's with a good 11.5" gun was with Russian ammo. The 10" guns are much louder as well, so I prefer to have some type of can or muzzle device on them that deals with sound, effectively increasing the barrel length to what an 11.5" or 16" would be.

[BjornF16]

Any recommendations on manufacturers with know how on short ARs?

What about integral barrel/suppressor?

[BjornF16]

I'm now working with a lawyer for NFA trust...(seems like a cottage industry...do these guys support NFA to increase their business?)

[Variable]

Any recommendations on manufacturers with know how on short ARs?
My vote would be COLT. They know more about the platform and how to make a shorty run than about anyone. They've been doing it since the beginning. I have a Colt 6933 that runs flawlessly, and were I to grab another one, I'd get one again. The only other thing I'd want would be their Monolithic if it was available in an 11.5" barrel.


What about integral barrel/suppressor?
Personally I wouldn't get an integral. I'd hate to pay for a really good can and then have it permanently married to only one upper.

I haven't paid much attention to the can market lately (I already have 6, so I need to take a break!LOL). I have an older style AAC M4-2000 that I really like, but I also have an AAC 762-SD can that I really love as well. The 762-SD is a .30 cal. can, so it works on about anything .30 cal. Or smaller. I use it on 7.62, 6.5 Grendel, and 5.56. It works real well on all three. It's larger in size than a 5.56 can, but it still works well on the 5.56 platform, and has less blow back because of the larger volume. Food for thought anyway...

[Variable]

I'm now working with a lawyer for NFA trust...(seems like a cottage industry...do these guys support NFA to increase their business?)That I don't know.LOL. Unfortunately trusts weren't en vogue when I started buying stamps, so all of my stuff is papered only to me. Were I just starting now, I'd most likely go the trust route as well.

[Variable]

Variable,

That's an interesting suggestion, as I imagine both people could be co-owners/trustees of the trust. Good idea.

Bjorn,

For reliability, an 11.5" or 12.5" AR is hard to beat with the short AR's, as long as the barrel is made by a reputable manufacturer with the know-ho on gas port diameter. Things start to get sketchy from there as you get into the 10" barrels, but some apparently are reliable with the right gas ports, gas system and recoiling parts balance, and ammunition. I can't recall having any malf's with all the 11.5" guns I've owned or used, and I have owned 3 different ones in the past. The only time I've seen malf's with a good 11.5" gun was with Russian ammo. The 10" guns are much louder as well, so I prefer to have some type of can or muzzle device on them that deals with sound, effectively increasing the barrel length to what an 11.5" or 16" would be.
Same here. I'd stick to the 11.5" uppers. I have one 7.5" upper, but it's only a novelty to me. I mainly use it with a .22lr adapter, and it only sees 5.56 to blow the lead out.

I have an AA 10.5" in the Grendel that runs like a raped ape, so there are exceptions, but other than that I'm an 11.5" guy as well.

For obnoxious blast, I'd have to give the ribbon to my 10.5" 6.5 Grendel!!! I fired it in an enclosed stand exactly ONCE. I'll never do that unsuppressed again!!! With the AAC can it's a pussy cat though.

I'm interested in Templar's new can too, so when I get some toy funds back I may pursue one of those, depending on the stats. I'd like to build a light weight Grendel with AA's G10 forend. A titanium can might be sweet for that. :D

[LRRPF52]

I'll be doing a 723 or 727-style KISS carbine in the near future, and I'm planning on doing a FSB pocket cut on one of the old tubular rifle-length guards that were emerging in that early-90's era with certain folks. With a reflex can over the 14.5" pipes, it looks like an MP5SD kinda, and allows more forward mounting of your light so you don't get muzzle shadow like on a carbine handguard gun.

I was able to get some A2 "blem" uppers from LAR for like $48 per, so that will push me in the 727 direction of course. I still haven't decided if I'll SBR and do a regular can, or have a reflex made out of Ti.

My last can was an Ase Utra CQB-QD that attached to a standard A2 or A1 flash suppressor, but I didn't really like that design so much relying on alignment of a rack-grade thread job, and the added weight of the QD mech. I think direct thread-on is much more practical, and definitely lighter.

For a car gun, the benefits of a suppressor can't be overstated enough, but I will want it as short as possible. I have noticed that 7.62 weapons suppressed can be made much quieter than a 5.56, which still has a piercing crack not present in some of the better .30 cal cans.

Variable, is the Grendel more in the same boat as the 7.62 with regards to suppressed report?

[Variable]

Variable, is the Grendel more in the same boat as the 7.62 with regards to suppressed report?
Kind of embarrassing, but I don't know.:o I don't have any 308 semi platforms anymore, and we don't have them at work either, so I can't really make an honest comparison. I dumped all of my semi 308s a long time ago, and only have an old Remmy PSS bolt gun left. I never really paid that much attention to the ballistic crack between different cartridges. When I ever get around to shooting the Remmy again, I'll try to compare them (with my poorly calibrated mk1 "earball" anyway.LOL). I don't expect it would be fair to put a bolt gun against a semi, but maybe I can aurally edit out the action noise somehow.:D I should probably get another 308 at some time, but with the toy fund currently near empty, it'll be a while.

I expect you are probably right. I don't know if raw velocity plays a part in it or not. Sorry I couldn't be of better help though.

FWIW, the 5.56 rounds do seem a little "crisper"/"sharper", but I have no idea how that would pan out on a meter. If sound pressure levels were equal, and they were just higher in pitch, I'd bet they probably fall off faster at distance. I couldn't responsibly say for sure though.

[LRRPF52]

One of the quietest rigs I have heard is an AK with a BR Tuote suppressor. Even from the ejection port side, I was surprised at how quiet it is. Listening to 5.56 and 7.62 NATO or 7.62x39 suppressed all in the same range session clearly leaves 5.56 as the more offensive of the three. I'll bet that the Grendel with it's lower pressures and larger bore diameter would exhibit a milder muzzle report when suppressed.

[bwaites]

The velocity "crack" of 5.56 is noticeably more audible to people than larger calibers. I think that sound falls in the range that humans seem to pick up on more readily.

To me it has two components...There is a sound pressure wave that you feel, and one that you hear. 5.56 has almost NO felt sound pressure, while the audible signature is very distinctive. I shot a match Saturday, and I could easily differentiate the .308 rounds I was pulling from the 5.56 rounds on the target next to me, and it wasn't because of where I was. I was actually pulling and marking my target, plus a .300 WinMag target between my .308 and the .223, so I was standing in the middle by the .300 WinMag target with my target to my left and the 5.56 to my right. It was easy to hear which was 5.56 and which .308. (The guy shooting the .300 WinMag was regularly giving us a dirt shower shooting into the berm above us, and his rounds were tumbling at 600, causing the "bumblebee" sound. There was something definitely wrong with his rifle.)

[LRRPF52]

Bill,

That made a lot more sense when I figured out that you were describing the sound and pressure wave effects on the receiving end down in the target pit.

[glane5910]

I've been so tied up building other than 5.56 that I guess I should put one together just for the above reasons. I've got my Scout Squad 308 so I'm good if the zombies strike before I can put a 5.56 together!!

[LRRPF52]

Did you guys see this? This actually may make me forget doing a Mini and keep the AR continuity, since I already have plenty of mags. I actually bookmarked these guys today, which I don't usually do with AR builders.

http://www.lokiweaponsystems.com/products/lwsf-gat-rifle/

447

Jwilson1985, we need to be hearing more from you. Imagine a can on this and it nestled nicely behind your passenger seat...mmm mmm mmm

[fanofflyn]

There is no audible crack if you're hit with the first shot in an effective place, with any of the above.

--fanofflyn

[LRRPF52]

It's more like a ziiiiiiiiIIIIIIIIPPPP

We need to see some videos of that GAT carbine in action. Jwilson....

[jwilson1985]

ya the gat stock which erik the ceo and owner came up with is really awesome that stock will fully extend out and collapse against the reciver if u have a rifle with a 16" barrel it would be the same length as a 10.5" sbr with the stock collapsed it comes with a different buffer and tube but still uses the stock bcg

[jwilson1985]

i will see if i cant get some for ya ...if you look in the background of the pic i posted up with the shot receiver u can see it behind it

[LRRPF52]

I have some vehicle Immediate Action Drills for shooting 360 degrees from within the car, whether you are the driver, passenger, or rear passengers. You are most vulnerable from the rear blind spots, so I have worked out some shooting positions and drills going from a normal seated posture, to being able to engage targets from any aspect from within the car. I would love to do some drills with that system...it's perfect for the car. I would probably run it with heavier projectiles for good reliability with the short dwell time, unless using a can. A reflex can from under a mid-length tube will look like an MP5SDA3 with that stock. Daddy likes it...Put a Micro RDS on top, and we're GTG.

[jwilson1985]

thats what its for :-) and yes mp5ish lol though my sack hasent dropped enough to put it on the beowulf lol

[LRRPF52]

That would be so fun to hand to an unsuspecting shooter at the range with one round of Beo only...Some guys enjoy handing a 5.56 mag to folks trying out their Beo's, and watching the look on their face as they hit the bolt catch and watch the entire cartridge fly out the muzzle downrange... he he he! Maybe put a recoil spring on the stock itself for the Beo...

I volunteer to do the video. I'm a recoil-insensitive shooter...I thought .270 Winchester out of a Featherweight was a plinking cartridge as a kid.

[jwilson1985]

ya i hear ya my first rifle was a 300 win mag

[JASmith]

Me too!

Ever use a .378 for rabbit hunting? Hitting a running rabbit at 100 yards was an interesting experience.

It is one of the reasons I can comfortably say that I do not need to routinely shoot the big ones! I could shoot that sucker from a bench, but the lightweight barrel made getting 3-inch groups at 100 yards a real challenge. I got a .222 Magnum about the time I went on active duty -- and may have shot the big one once or twice after that.

At another time, I learned that most of our southwestern cuisine of the late '60's was mild compared to that of Northern Thailand. The experiences helped me learn that there is always someone who has a rougher time or is meaner and badder or both

[jwilson1985]

here ya go... http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m594/jwilson85/ls1197.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m594/jwilson85/ls1196.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m594/jwilson85/ls1195.jpg

[LRRPF52]

That is way cool. Wonder if one of those neoprene sleeves is in order for the extension tube....

[jwilson1985]

im sure you could ,its the same size about.. but i dont know if the stock would clear it when it fully collapsed. the stock will go all the way to that plate that holds the rods for it

[jwilson1985]

http://youtu.be/kyHdKEV5AIk finally ready

[txgunner00]

Do want!!!

[Texas Sheepdawg]

I wish we had some glass data on the Wolf 120 MPT and the Hornady 123's out of the Grendel. I guess I should load up the 120 Barne's bullets, but I'm poor and lazy, so I'd rather sit on my current stash if they were sufficient.;)
Hey Variable, if you get a chance check out my pictures. It's here
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?1444-Our-military-adopting-the-Grendel/page3
Post #75
If these Wolf 120s MPT can do this to 7/16" steel, I would think a windshield wouldn't stand a chance.

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Wow... Well said! X10!


My replies are below. I'm not trying to antagonize or belittle you, heck I don't even entirely disagree with you. I just don't see anyone here having anything to worry about at the level we currently discuss things.


To a certain degree I agree with you on that point, but the only thing that can be done about it at this point in time is to shine the light on what they are doing wherever possible and motivate others to become involved politically to stop it. Kinda that whole Tea Party thing that is going on right now as we speak... Just rolling over and not discussing it certainly won't make it go away. Regardless of country. Silence and darkness are exactly the environmental conditions within which they thrive.



On that point you'd be in trouble with the rest of us by simply being registered and posting here-- if they were holding such a tight standard. Are you an NRA member?(don't feel obligated to answer!:D), if so: then you are already a card carrying member of a far more dangerous organization with many times more political involvement than the Grendel board. They'd need to round up 4 million card carrying members before they had to worry if they'd missed any here for mearly discussing how we think things are headed down the crapper.


They are welcome to "list" me as they like, they already have my photographs, finger prints, DNA, signatures, video, etc., etc., etc. What more could "they" want? :confused:


Any hypothetical future political entity so bent on tracking down possible dissidents (for political thought in conjunction/proximity to a gun board) would spend so much time backcrawling the great web cache that we'd die of natural causes first. Heck, just Arfcom alone would take at least a hundred years to unwind.;)

Could the U.S. have a dark political future ahead? You betcha, but only if we don't speak out truthfully and openly while educating others and actively participating in the legal political venues we still have currently open to us (as so brilliantly provided to us by the astoundingly prescient founding fathers our Creator saw fit to bless this nation with!!!!).

Only then, and IF that should fail, would we be ultimately forced to resort to our 2nd ammendment rights (as also so brilliantly provided by those wise old fellas!).

My Oath(s) were all sworn to uphold and protect the U.S. Constitution. I take them very seriously. No dictators or grand imperial leaders for me.:D

[sgt_murf]

But if I told what I use for a truck gun Variable would leave his mountaintop in WV and kick my door in...
Joking guys
I have thought of using for a Truck gun ---a 9mm Carbine to get home to the 5.56 and 30-06. But the best bet would be the 5.56mm in my simple opinion.

in a STHF scenerio of total social political breakdown my caliber choice would be 5.56/.223, .22LR, .30-06 or .308
my 2d worth

[JASmith]

sgt_murph

Those choices would suggest that someone expects to survive long enough to need resupply!

I've not followed the shtf forums but I suspect the serious folk have thought through things like defensible space, teams large enough to allow rotation of duty and sleep time, food growing or gathering, etc.

[Texas Sheepdawg]

The Ruger PC 9 carbine with 33 round clips. Using Winchester Ranger ammo.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m229/Bigbadsheepdawg/595e1735.jpg

[OldCannon]

I think Sheepdawg has the right mindset. My objectives for a trunk gun would be:
1) Reasonably available caliber, rifle OR pistol
2) Something that I can tolerate being stolen (assuming some toads take some pry bars to my car while I'm not present) or lost (car succumbs to a flash flood, hurricane, etc.)
3) Something that allows me to scare off bad guys at least 50 yds away
4) Something that can be easily reloaded and manipulated in a confined environment (guess that means I won't be packin my flintlock :) )

Honestly, a Hi-Point rifle in 9mm or .40 would work just fine, or even an AK.

I honestly think Variable nailed it though. Try not to over-think this stuff :)

[JASmith]

.
.
.
2) Something that I can tolerate being stolen (assuming some toads take some pry bars to my car while I'm not present) or lost (car succumbs to a flash flood, hurricane, etc.)
.
.
.
A point many of us overlook!

[sgt_murf]

The Ruger PC 9 carbine with 33 round clips. Using Winchester Ranger ammo.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m229/Bigbadsheepdawg/595e1735.jpg
Sheepdawg
Actually once I replied I looked those up (as well as the High point) on GB to see what the going rate was vs a AR in 9mm or 5.56mm. As I already have 9mm pistol as my truck gun the Carbine in the same caliber makes sense. even though I like the 5.56 option for the range etc etc. The only down side I see to those carbine is mag interchange, which really is not a great big deal but is a added bonus. Actually if I wanted that route I would not even think too much about the interchange of mag rather places to store 200 rounds of 9mm ball

Oh yeah Joe I do plan to survive long enough to need resupply (after reading your reply the wife asked me what I was smiling about I told her she chuckled too.)

[JASmith]

Glad I made your day better!

[txgunner00]

I think Sheepdawg has the right mindset. My objectives for a trunk gun would be:
1) Reasonably available caliber, rifle OR pistol
2) Something that I can tolerate being stolen (assuming some toads take some pry bars to my car while I'm not present) or lost (car succumbs to a flash flood, hurricane, etc.)
3) Something that allows me to scare off bad guys at least 50 yds away
4) Something that can be easily reloaded and manipulated in a confined environment (guess that means I won't be packin my flintlock :) )

Honestly, a Hi-Point rifle in 9mm or .40 would work just fine, or even an AK.

I honestly think Variable nailed it though. Try not to over-think this stuff :)


This is exactly why I have an inexpensive Mak 90 for my truck gun. Reliable and good for a man sized target to 300 yds. I have several rifles that would be "better" but I leave those in the safe.

I definitely like the concept and design of jwilsons weapon. I got to get me one of those.

[sgt_murf]

Glad I made your day better!
Brother Joe
when ya crackin jokes as well as others on here it always makes my day. Like the banter and going back and forth on silly stuff that don't mount to a hill of beans comments provides comical relief.

Txgunner
which jwilsons are your referring to??? the 5.56 LOKI? if that is the one that is definately a nice tool to have

[LRRPF52]

For a societal meltdown or disaster, I think it's realistic to think about a semi-permissive environment:

1) Some people will still be going to work
2) Crime more rampant
3) Home protection will rely on hardened structures and good neighborhood integrity, gating the hood, checkpoints, etc.
4) Likelihood of encountering violence outside the neighborhood is significantly increased.
5) You won't be able to walk around with an M4 slung on your body, unless in a group doing the same.
6) Pistols will increase in value exponentially.

[JASmith]

Your points are well-taken.

The scary thing is those environments exist even today!

Look at parts of any major metropolitan area, and you'll find places where law-enforcement is severely constrained. The constraints go so far as one suburb of Richmond (California, not Virginia) sued to bar police from their area on the grounds that law-enforcement was prejudicial. Who provides civil protection in those areas?

[LRRPF52]

I gained a lot of perspective on this after reading the continual AAR written by a guy who lived in Argentina after SHTF there...partial societal meltdown after an economic collapse. Very interesting read:

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/search/label/SHTF

Think about a large city being cut off from the normal supply of produce, take LA or New York for examples, or even DFW. Where I'm at, in the Salt Lake Valley, it is quite abnormal. I'd say a good 30% or more of the population has their own gardens and year's supply of food storage, and Utah is a very gun-friendly State, with 25% of all eligible adults having a CCW in 2007...not the place to step out and be a gangsta.

In many of these big cities, LE would be the first ones targeted by the bottom-feeder useful idiots with nothing to lose...riots supported by well-placed shooters covering them, targeted hits by career gang-bangers, lashing out by frustrated imbeciles, and things of that nature. Since National Guard units are deployed all over tarnation, they will be of limited help, and the enemy within has cut military strength progressively since the Bush Sr. administration.

Combine the enemy within in a coordinated effort with external enemies, and you could really start to lose sleep, especially since Cuba has been reserved as a strategic staging area by the communists since 1959, with full support from the UN and our European "allies". Now that China has occupied several former Soviet bases in Cuba, it makes me wonder about the timeline we're looking at, especially since they purchased the locks to the Panama Canal after Clinton honored Carter's signing of it away in 1999.

China has very limited maritime military capabilities, but is dominant in commercial shipping volume, so how hard would it be to simply marshal forces covertly via normal shipping activities? Especially with full complicity of a marxist-controlled media in the US, who successfully hid the fact that Clinton is a rapist, murderer, drug-runner, cocaine addict, led violent demonstrations against the US Embassy in England when he dodged the draft, Clinton isn't really his name, robbed the White House upon leaving office, etc., etc. How hard would it be to hide these movements from the majority of the people?

China is facing the absolute reality of societal collapse due to the income disparity between the burgeoning interior and coastal populations, lack of infrastructure, and demoralization from 60 years of communist oppression. They don't have enough food to feed their own people, which is not a good position to be in as global food prices inflate. Pressure has to be released in some manner...just reality.

In our hemisphere, the mass unrest caused by the narco-traffickers, who could have been manipulated by a foreign source to withhold $700 billion from the normal laundering cycle in 2007 and thus triggering the credit crunch (banks with no cash who were used to recovering it through money-laundering of the drug trade), has resulted in a full-blown war in Mexico, with casualties rivaling both Middle East/Central Asian theaters of war in the past 2 years. That's not a good scenario to have on our Southern border gents.

Then look at the current administration using the useful idiots to conduct massive and illegal protests, warming up for the big cahuna burger in the 2012 election next year, with nothing but violence as the end result of the recipe....

Yeah, you need a good plan for the future. A car gun is just one important possible tool in that kitbag, but where you live, your food supply and normal goods supply are equally important, under the umbrella of like-minded neighbors with families they would like to see live through their normal life spans. Keep in mind that a significant number of Congress think that socialism is a good idea, and have been passing legislation to that effect for a century...from both parties.

[sgt_murf]

LR
I didn't get half way through your post and the thought of Chinia underwriting our debts poped up maybe I need to load the truck up and start heading to the Ozarks.

To support the posting of gated communities this is rampant in South FL and have their own patrol in addition to LE.

What really kills me is just how easy this decay "could" occur

[LRRPF52]

We are in the "crisis" stage of the long-term chess game launched by the communists 100 years ago. Stages 1-3 have already been fully achieved:

Stage 1: Demoralize the West by preaching Marxism/Leninism as the superior moral/political/economic model, while illustrating the decadence and burgoise capitalism as corrupt and unfair. CHECK

Stage 2: Destabilize the West by penetrating and controlling the schools, universities, newspapers, government, and military, while using the capitalist economic system against itself. CHECK

Stage 3: Enact a CRISIS or series of CRISES where the masses will call for action, due to the failure of the capitalist system. CHECK

Stage 4: Normalize them under Marxism/Leninism/Socialism. Eradicate those who cannot be re-educated, and eliminate the ones who helped destabilize society, as they can't be trusted to live orderly in the new society.

If you look at the Bolshevik revolution, Stalin and Lenin had all their comrades killed, to reduce competition. They even had the photographs of the revolution doctored to eliminate their former buddies. Stalin also had all war photos taken during The Great Patriotic War Against the Fascists (WWII) censored so that none of the superior US & British Lend/Lease tanks, aircraft, tucks, and weapons could be seen by future Soviet generations. When asked to return all the hardware we supplied them with, Stalin said we could come pick it up off the battlefield if we wanted to. I would have taken him up on the offer...

[sgt_murf]

Patton wanted to do just that and preached about the Ruskies to the point of reorganizing the Germans under US and continue Operations util we hit Alasks.

Funny how the Russian Never got over our invading them during WWI, even to the this Day they recall it when most Americans never heard of it.

[JASmith]

Our discussion has taken an interesting turn, but one that is really difficult to ignore.

I'm not sure the gated community folks really understand that their "hired guns" will more or less disappear when the shtf -- they have families to protect too.

The good news is that most, not all, of them will be reminded of this when the first few are destroyed. They might have the wherewithal to make the changes needed to survive, but the need for food and water may still make them not viable in those scenarios.

Regarding China, another truism is that all empires must grow or die. We saw the culmination of this with the Tsars, the British, empire, followed by the Soviets. The Spaniards and Romans, etc., also experienced the expansion, stagnation, and collapse cycle -- some more gently that others, but it still happened The Chinese have a much longer history and only partly prove the exception unless one understands that the form of government changed as a result of loss of territory. That change was frequently imposed by invaders.

The current form, which we label as Communist, has been steadily adding territory since the mid-50's. Further, the culture and long recorded history encourages long-term planning. The trend has largely been focused on immediate neighbors and those one or two countries removed.

Does this mean the Canal and Cuba are part of the plan? Could be, to the extent that closing the canal and shipping provocateurs into the mainland causes distractions from events in Myanmar (Burma), Laos and Vietnam, followed by Cambodia and Thailand. A direct threat to US territory, probably not on their immediate planning horizon -- 20 years or so.

For an alternative view, look at George Friedman's The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century and The Next Decade: Where We've Been . . . and Where We're Going . His point of view is that China will soon be seriously distracted by the polarization of the coastal communities and the interior (meaning Beijng). That by no means rules out the kinds of distractions described in the last few posts.

[sgt_murf]

Joe
Concur, what is in the back of my mind is now the instability since the end of the "Cold" war. Not attempting the doom and gloom thing, just that "IF" the correct conditions present themselves the what ifs could be possiable. As such this type of topic with the mainstream would induce comments that "it would never happen or could happen, you need help see a professional". Then once it did the looking for a scape goat would be next priority.

[JASmith]

The issues we're discussing are more examples of the critical nature of the 2nd Amendment. The existence of the Amendment, coupled with vast numbers of us acting on it either unconsciously or motivated purely by sporting impulses, make a direct invasion extraordinarily unlikely.

...which is why we see back-door and oblique approaches being used to demoralize, destabilize and otherwise distract us from the critically important long-term global issues.

[LRRPF52]

This is one of the most informative discussions I've seen on China ever, really. Combined with what I have learned from certain reliable sources, I do believe there is a plan to gain more territory, but not necessarily through overt military action, especially if one commands a strong presence in the global governing body:

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20111115-stratfor-conversation-george-friedman-and-special-guest-robert-kaplan

If you like to follow geopolitics from a no-BS perspective, and don't have a subscription to STRATFOR, you're basically left with what's available in the attention-defecit generation press, without any real historical, political, tribal, economic, or religious background from which to understand the issues of the day. I can't recommend them enough.

[sgt_murf]

The issues we're discussing are more examples of the critical nature of the 2nd Amendment. The existence of the Amendment, coupled with vast numbers of us acting on it either unconsciously or motivated purely by sporting impulses, make a direct invasion extraordinarily unlikely.

...which is why we see back-door and oblique approaches being used to demoralize, destabilize and otherwise distract us from the critically important long-term global issues.
Joe,
you are correct on the 2nd Amendment and the ability of the populance to deter a organized Force. Which is why in several models the consenus is that internal civil unrest would be started, exploited and then maximined, thus allowing possiabilities for explortation.
Do I subscribe to this camp no, but I don't discount the validity of it could happen.

[LRRPF52]

Joe,
you are correct on the 2nd Amendment and the ability of the populance to deter a organized Force. Which is why in several models the consenus is that internal civil unrest would be started, exploited and then maximined, thus allowing possiabilities for explortation.
Do I subscribe to this camp no, but I don't discount the validity of it could happen.

I was just going to say that the enemies of the US realize that there are more firearms here per capita than any other place on earth, despite what cherry-picked country the UN might use for their statistics. That being said, consider how they would use firearms ownership as a means to exacerbate societal unrest, what roles foreign ammunition supply play into this (price US-made ammo out of the civilian market, while pushing for more prohobitively expensive "green" military ammo), until Wolf and Barnaul are the only games in town, then cut imports over a certain period.

Keep in mind the current administration attempted to literally BAN all lead ammunition and fishing weights through the EPA. They just declared it a harmful substance to the environment, then faced an immediate backlash when the D.C. Capitol switchboard melted from the calls, and backed off a bit on ammo first, while still holding to the fishing weight ban, until that was shot down as well.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/jamestown-tn/TU4U2JH2M81K9S1H1

[sgt_murf]

Just think LR they was successful with UN to distroy suplus ammo and weapon internally thus reducing available resources. citing that it would reduce the number of rouge warlords was it successful to that end? but it does bring up points for discussion.
I dunno guys on that one can't really form a opinion.

Actually what else I found to be "funny" was that many Firearms dealers stated to me that the current Administration election actually helped their business massively.

[LRRPF52]

Yup. Obama was often cited as the NRA Salesman of the Year Awardee...

[txgunner00]

Txgunner
which jwilsons are your referring to??? the 5.56 LOKI? if that is the one that is definately a nice tool to have

Yep.

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Well, the Ruger PC 9 and the Ruger P89 pistol mags do interchange. I just wish Ruger would make the PC series in a 45ACP. But then what high cap mags could they use?

[Texas Sheepdawg]

These would be a great trunk gun!
I want one in 450 Bushmaster and 6.5 Grendel!
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9VLQWJZh44&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[jwilson1985]

just so you all know, loki sales just that stock the one in the video is on a 12.5" barrel ...but if put on a 16" barrel you end up with a 27"over all weapon....and on the thought of other weapos i wish there was a american made mag fed 12ga ,im really thinking a savage slug gun bolt action mag fed cut to 18" barrel ...its hard for me to get something that,does not say made in usa as its a loki thing all 100% american parts and made...i even had to opt for the m9 vs the 92 just cause i feel that way....as for shtf i still need to get food i keep putting it off ..what have yal fond to be good,ive also seen how to make your own

[bwaites]

just so you all know, loki sales just that stock the one in the video is on a 12.5" barrel ...but if put on a 16" barrel you end up with a 27"over all weapon....and on the thought of other weapos i wish there was a american made mag fed 12ga ,im really thinking a savage slug gun bolt action mag fed cut to 18" barrel ...its hard for me to get something that,does not say made in usa as its a loki thing all 100% american parts and made...i even had to opt for the m9 vs the 92 just cause i feel that way....as for shtf i still need to get food i keep putting it off ..what have yal fond to be good,ive also seen how to make your own

KelTec makes an awesome new shotgun, not mag fed, but seriously cool!

KelTec KSG:

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/11313/kel-tec-ksg/

http://gunnuts.net/2011/09/14/kel-tec-ksg-review/

14+1 rounds of serious goodness!

[jwilson1985]

ya bill i have considered that ,i just havent had good luck with kel-tec i had a sub 2000 9mm didnt like to cycle,had a p3at i thnk thats what it is and it stove piped all the time. but i do like that shotgun . there is a semi auto version like it but i forget who makes it?

[Armored Transport]

I work armed and my "back-up" is an 1100 rem. 12ga. 21" pipe that holds 11. Yep a semi-auto 11 shot 12ga. My bookbag/ trunk gun is a Bushmaster carbon-15 pistol w/single point sling...magwell grip and Trig.RMR. I keep is stoked with the green nose rounds with a few spare 30rd. mags like I said hanging out in a bookbag sized backpack. I carry it most places I go. After all.....I am an Infidel :cool: