*??!!??!*** Wolf Ammo!

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  • *??!!??!*** Wolf Ammo!

    went to the range today to play with a new eotech. since, i also just picked up a wci brake for the grendel......I figured I play with both toys at the same time today. So , I mounted the eotech to my AA Tactical 16 upper and headed to the range.

    Since I was only going to be shooting at up to 100 yds max, I figured I shoot up the cheaper wolf MPT stuff rather than my hornady amax supply.

    I have had issues with the wolf ammo in the past so I figured I take a sheridan case gauge with me. In the past, I have have had about 10% of the wolf ammo wolf the primers out of the case. I have also had a few cases that never ejected.....I think they would come off of the bolt during the reward action of the bolt cycle.

    So...........today was the worst day ever with the wolf ammo. I shot 60 rounds, had 6 cases blow the primers out, had 8 stovepipe partial ejections, had 5 cases got stuck and slammed into the ejection port of the upper (totally deformed the case mouth of each case), and had a few more case that never ejected from the upper and just jammed up the operation!

    I checked alot of the cartidges before loading them in the magazines. I would drop them into the Sheridan gauge. They all sat a few thousandths below the "minimum headspace" slot that is cut into the face of the sheridan gauge. After firing, they were prefectly fired formed and measured to be perfect in the sheridan gauge.

    So, does this sound like purely an ammo issue with wolf or does it sound like a problem with my upper? The bad ejection problems makes we wonder if I have an issue with my extractor. I have examined many of the cases and have noticed that the primers on the unfired wolf ammo are slightly recessed in the case head. ALL of the fired cases have primers that all flush with the case head. Is that normal? I have never inspected fired cases much before this. Also, most of the cases have strong heavy ejector marks on the case heads and some even have extractor swipe marks where there is a bit of peeled back brass on the cases heads.

    I'm curious to here what you guys think about this.
    Last edited by bwaites; 08-08-2011, 05:59 AM. Reason: Language

  • #2
    Pictures:

    A loaded, unfired wolf cartridge.sits low in the gauge.



    A case after being fired. Fits perfectly after being for formed.

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    • #3
      Here is a before and after of the primer. Note the primer is no longer recessed into the case head after firing.



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      • #4
        Here see some pics of the extractor and ejector markings:







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        • #5
          finally, a couple pics of once of the basses that blew out a primer and another of one that got smashed into the ejection port window of the upper:



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          • #6
            If the ammo is undersize, and you are firing it in a much larger chamber, that is going to cause all sorts of problems. Any time the headspace is goofy, there will be problems with pressure. The primers will flow rearward to fill up the pocket (bad), and there will be other signs of pressure such as the marks from ejector/extractor, ejection, extraction issues. My bet is that the issue is caused by the short sized wolf brass.

            If you have fired other ammo that DOES fit your headspace gauge and do not have these problems with that ammo, you have your answer. I would suggest contacting the wolf ammo representative. I doubt very much that the problem is both your rifle's chamber, and the headspace gauge you are using. It is far more likely that wolf made the ammo short so that it would chamber in 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 CSS, 264 LBC/AR, and the other offshoots of these cartridges.

            As you probably know, there is no free lunch, and manufacturers simply can't just make ammo with a short overall length to the datum line on the shoulder in hopes it will chamber and shoot properly. Sure, it will chamber because it is short...but the ammo won't function properly because it is actually undersize.

            I suggest measuring fired cases to the datum line after they have been fired in your rifle. Compare that measurement to the wolf ammo, then compare the measurement of your fired cases to ammo that does function properly. I would try ammo from Black Hills, Alexander Arms, or similar top quality ammo. Then give the results to the wolf representative you talk with on the phone.

            Comment

            • stanc
              Banned
              • Apr 2011
              • 3430

              #7
              Originally posted by noone View Post
              If you have fired other ammo that DOES fit your headspace gauge and do not have these problems with that ammo, you have your answer. I would suggest contacting the wolf ammo representative. I doubt very much that the problem is both your rifle's chamber, and the headspace gauge you are using. It is far more likely that wolf made the ammo short so that it would chamber in 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 CSS, 264 LBC/AR, and the other offshoots of these cartridges.
              This makes me curious -- has anybody else experienced these problems when shooting Wolf MPT in an AA Tactical carbine, or any other make/model/chamber (6.5 G/6.5 CSS/.264 LBC) rifle?

              Comment

              • LR1955
                Super Moderator
                • Mar 2011
                • 3355

                #8
                Originally posted by stanc View Post
                This makes me curious -- has anybody else experienced these problems when shooting Wolf MPT in an AA Tactical carbine, or any other make/model/chamber (6.5 G/6.5 CSS/.264 LBC) rifle?
                Stan:

                Absolutely not. Not with real certified 'Grendel' made by John Paul, not with several made using a Tiff reamer and a match grade chamber.

                QC mentioned this before on another thread and the response has been that something is wrong with his upper if he is getting high pressure signs with the Wolf ammo. If anything, Wolf MPT is extremely conservative in terms of its load and pressures. Very light IMHO.

                Something is wrong with his upper. Most likely his gas system is screwed up or the bore is way under SAMMI specs.

                LR1955

                Comment


                • #9
                  I too shot some wolf mpt ammo this weekend. I did not experience any failures but I did get basically the same markings on the case as you did in picture 7. All in all the ammo shot fairly well for what it is. I was able to get an average of 1.5in at 100 yards. I also shot some Hornady 123 gr Amax and it produced excellent accuracy results but it to had the same markings on the case. None of the markings on the cases I shot were deforming in anyway just a little surface scratching.

                  Comment

                  • stanc
                    Banned
                    • Apr 2011
                    • 3430

                    #10
                    Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                    Stan:

                    Absolutely not. If anything, Wolf MPT is extremely conservative in terms of its load and pressures. Very light IMHO.

                    Something is wrong with his upper. Most likely his gas system is screwed up or the bore is way under SAMMI specs.

                    LR1955
                    Thanks, Gene. I thought it highly unlikely that the problem was with the ammo. Just checking to be sure.

                    Comment

                    • LR1955
                      Super Moderator
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 3355

                      #11
                      Originally posted by stanc View Post
                      Thanks, Gene. I thought it highly unlikely that the problem was with the ammo. Just checking to be sure.
                      Stan:

                      And it isn't because he believes his cartridges are too short. I rather would say his case gauge is off.

                      I have shot 7.62 out of 30-06 chambers and have shot Grendel ammo through CSS Chambers but with Grendel bolts. Both were deliberate -- not a mistake.

                      So, head space isn't causing his problems either. His rifle has serious gas system problems or was made poorly somehow and somewhere. I would say it is a gas system problem.

                      LR55

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                      • #12
                        Quadcam,

                        What barrel, gas system length, gas system type, chamber, bolt carrier, buffer, & recoil spring do you have? Are you getting any short-strokes? If you are blowing primers with Wolf, something is seriously wrong and dangerous with your rig. I would advise to NOT shoot anymore until this is diagnosed. I would be looking at the gun, not the Wolf ammo at this point.

                        Blown primers is not a good sign with factory ammunition. Something is wrong with your rifle.

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                        • #13
                          I would have to agree that it is probably a rifle problem and not an ammo problem. IMO all the markings on the case heads leads me to believe it is a gas problem, but the blown primer, that's something else. I don't believe I have ever seen or heard of a blown primer cause by and out of spec gas system. That said, I'll put my money on the chamber or the barrel.

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                          • #14
                            I think I recall a conversation with Bill, that primers were not even blown at 70k psi on the pressure breech IIRC, in fact there were almost no pressure signs.

                            If you think about it that is damned scary.

                            Comment

                            • bwaites
                              Moderator
                              • Mar 2011
                              • 4445

                              #15
                              Originally posted by warped View Post
                              I think I recall a conversation with Bill, that primers were not even blown at 70k psi on the pressure breech IIRC, in fact there were almost no pressure signs.

                              If you think about it that is damned scary.
                              Lapua brass, small primer, though!

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