130 gr + bullets are to big, urban myth?

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  • 130 gr + bullets are to big, urban myth?

    Everyone keeps sayin that bullets in the 130gr and up range are to big for the gender, but I am getting 2350-2400 fps with 139gr scenars, and 2400-2420 fps with 140 gr gamekings. With some of those loads I am putting them all in one hole groups. I don't have the long range experience as some of you, but the 139gr scenario is holding its velocity better than the smaller bullets and is bucking the wind better to. I tend to think the bigger bullets aren't getting enough attention solely based on muzzle velocity and I would like to get your thoughts on the matter.
  • bwaites
    Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 4445

    #2
    Run the numbers, and you'll find that the bigger bullets resist wind better, but that you simply can't push them hard enough to take advantage of it out at 800 plus yards.

    I am tempted to try the 130 VLD for F class, since it requires single loading anyway.

    Comment

    • LR1955
      Super Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 3355

      #3
      Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
      Everyone keeps sayin that bullets in the 130gr and up range are to big for the gender, but I am getting 2350-2400 fps with 139gr scenars, and 2400-2420 fps with 140 gr gamekings. With some of those loads I am putting them all in one hole groups. I don't have the long range experience as some of you, but the 139gr scenario is holding its velocity better than the smaller bullets and is bucking the wind better to. I tend to think the bigger bullets aren't getting enough attention solely based on muzzle velocity and I would like to get your thoughts on the matter.
      NR:

      I think your chronograph is reading about 150 fps too fast. How many times have you run those loads over a chronograph and have you ever run a check to see if your chronograph is calibrated?

      You may find with the VLDs that a 'one hole group' at 100 yards can easily turn into a two minute group at 300 yards and five minutes at 800.

      The bigger bullets don't get as much attention with the Grendel because they must be seated very deeply into the case and this eats up case capacity and generally is not good for internal ballistics. It doesn't optimize the potential that you can get consistency over a large number of shots.

      LR1955

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      • #4
        Sounds like a good option for deer hunting at short range(under 200 yrds).

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        • #5
          I haven't ever ran a check on my chrono, so it is possible it is off, though based on what it is sayin for other loads I feel it is okay but don't know how to check calibration. I have ran about 100 rounds loaded similar over my chrono. I am getting 29.8 gr of LVR under the 139 scenar and don't feel I am hot with that mix. I am going to shoot some at range and see if my groups want to open up or not, if they hold together I am probably going to stick with it.
          Last edited by Guest; 08-25-2011, 06:08 PM.

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          • bwaites
            Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 4445

            #6
            One way you can check, indirectly, is to zero at 100 yards, then check the drop from point of aim using the 100 yard zero.

            If the velocity is 2400 FPS, you should have 40.43 inches of drop at 400 yards. If the velocity is 2350 you would have 42.48. If you have more than that, you can extrapolate actual velocity by using one of the ballistics calculators.

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            • #7
              Nimrod,

              What barrel length are you pushing those from at those velocities? At 2350-2400 fps, you are definitely not getting the G1 BC's listed for those bullets. Sierra might have some published BC's for those Gamekings, but you could look at Lapua's radar data on the Scenars to get an accurate trajectory for them. What range are you looking to push to, and what MOA spread is your goal at that range? You might want to try some different bullets if you're going for distances past 600 and 700 yds. Run the Scenars through Lapua's QTU and see what velocities you're getting at the further distances, and see if it's what you want.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                Nimrod,

                What barrel length are you pushing those from at those velocities? At 2350-2400 fps, you are definitely not getting the G1 BC's listed for those bullets. Sierra might have some published BC's for those Gamekings, but you could look at Lapua's radar data on the Scenars to get an accurate trajectory for them. What range are you looking to push to, and what MOA spread is your goal at that range? You might want to try some different bullets if you're going for distances past 600 and 700 yds. Run the Scenars through Lapua's QTU and see what velocities you're getting at the further distances, and see if it's what you want.
                I have a 20" barrel. I was using the G7 BC's that Lapua has on their bullets, right now my software doesn't support Lapua's QTU, but I am going to remedy that. I doubt I will ever shoot 800 yards if that far.

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                • LR1955
                  Super Moderator
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 3355

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
                  I haven't ever ran a check on my chrono, so it is possible it is off, though based on what it is sayin for other loads I feel it is okay but don't know how to check calibration. I have ran about 100 rounds loaded similar over my chrono. I am getting 29.8 gr of LVR under the 139 scenar and don't feel I am hot with that mix. I am going to shoot some at range and see if my groups want to open up or not, if they hold together I am probably going to stick with it.
                  NR:

                  One way to check calibration is to shoot some .22 Long Rifle you know is a specific velocity over the chronograph. Chronographs can be sensitive to light conditions at times.

                  Bill commented on checking drop by shooting and then measuring. I haven't had much luck with this technique but have put a chronograph down range to measure velocity. Then seen the BC by comparing the muzzle velocity with the down range velocity. Again, you better have a very good shooting load or you end up shooting the chronograph. When I have done this and plugged the numbers into various ballistics programs I have never found the resulting BC to be near the one touted by the various bullet manufacturers. That is one of the reasons why I am skeptical about printed BC's.

                  LR55

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                  • #10
                    If your max is at 800, you could try the 139's and 140's, comparing them to 123's, and maybe even 129 SST's. You might have better luck even with 107 SMK's running fast, and 108 Scenars. This reminds me back to the lessons many .308 shooters learned when everyone wanted to go heavier and heavier up to the Sierra 175 Match Kings. It turns out that the 155 Lapua Scenar running fast was more preferable. Bullet flight time is something I notice myself looking at more and more when running my loads through the programs.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                      If your max is at 800, you could try the 139's and 140's, comparing them to 123's, and maybe even 129 SST's. You might have better luck even with 107 SMK's running fast, and 108 Scenars. This reminds me back to the lessons many .308 shooters learned when everyone wanted to go heavier and heavier up to the Sierra 175 Match Kings. It turns out that the 155 Lapua Scenar running fast was more preferable. Bullet flight time is something I notice myself looking at more and more when running my loads through the programs.
                      The best I have gotten with the 129sst is 2462 dos, that leaves them in the dust compared to the 139 scenar at 2350 or the 140 gameking at 2420. I am looking bigger because I am a hunter, I know the scenar IS NOT a hunting bullet but I am thinking if I can deliver it at 400 yards with 1000 fps I will be doing better than I could with any of the smaller bullets. It may be a pipe dream, and I am open to criticism/advice, but that is what I am looking for. I have enjoyed my Gender more than than all of my other guns cause it has been such a challenge to get what I want out of it, and I fully realise I may be asking to much of it, though that may to be reasoning based off the modern day feelings that revolve around the super duper ultra howitzers. I will keep you all updated with success stories or stories of failure, however my chips fall.

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                      • #12
                        Maybe you could try Moly or HBN coating to run heavier charge weights, and get faster velocities. It seems like you're getting some pretty good speeds with the 140 GameKing. You'll just have to see if you have sufficient velocity at 400 yds for your expansion parameters on those bullets. You're not too far off from 6.5x55 Swede performance, really.

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                        • #13
                          The problem with moly is that you get reduced pressure, reduced pressure means less FPS so you then have to add more powder.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
                            I am looking bigger because I am a hunter, I know the scenar IS NOT a hunting bullet but I am thinking if I can deliver it at 400 yards with 1000 fps I will be doing better than I could with any of the smaller bullets.
                            I had no problem dropping that fairly large buck at 465yds.

                            I shot that deer with a 123 AMAX and a 14.5" bbl with a WCI brake on it.

                            Yeah I had a bit of drop, so do other calibers.

                            The high BC makes up for a few fps, the .308win with a 150SST is pretty much the same in trajectory.

                            Remember that a 16" bbl is not too different than a 14.5" for velocity.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                              It turns out that the 155 Lapua Scenar running fast was more preferable. Bullet flight time is something I notice myself looking at more and more when running my loads through the programs.
                              Yep faster does cut down on leads as well, for those of us willing to drop a deer running at full speed.

                              That is usually the only way I see them.

                              We are pretty stealthy but given the hunting pressure all properties surrounding the land we hunt, there is more than enough gunfire and other things like ATV's to spook them.

                              I guess some of the locals like to scare them to death, before they eat them.

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