Powder: CFE 223

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  • Boostmeister
    Bloodstained
    • Sep 2014
    • 63

    Powder: CFE 223

    I've been running 8208 XBR in my 20" Shilen barrelled AR and have measured velocity while running ladder tests. I finally settled in on 28.5 gr of 8208 XBR as it resulted in very good accuracy and about 2500 fps velocity (using 123gr Lapua Scenar bullets). A week ago I picked up 8 lbs of CFE 223. Knowing that it is a little slower than XBR, I anticipated a bit more velocity, but that hasn't been the case. I worked my way up from 24.9 gr to 31.8gr in .3 gr increments. Average velocity is as follows:

    Powder 29.4 29.7 30.0 30.3 30.6 30.9 31.2 31.5 31.8
    Velocity 2335 2347 2367 2386 2417 2441 2455 2484 2512
    Increase +12 +20 +19 +31 +24 +14 +30 +28

    All rounds were seated to 2.25, and running the same 205M primers and Lapua Scenar bullets. In other words the same as my 8208 XBR testing. Temperature was within 7 degrees (67 F) as the XBR test (60 F). Brass and primers looked good at all levels with no signs of excessive pressure. No evidence of a velocity spike. There were two accuracy nodes, one at 30.3 gr and the other at 31.8 gr.

    I haven't seen many CFE 223 loads exceeding 31.8 gr, and I'm looking for input from others before proceeding with increased levels. Everything I have seen realtive to CFE 223 would indicate that it generally has a bit more velocity than 8208 XBR, however I was surprised to see that in order to achieve the same velocity, I had to go as high as 31.8 gr of CFE 223. I'm tempted to test starting at 32 gr, and move up in .3 gr increments to 32.6 to see if there is any primer flow or other indications of pressure, but thought there may be others out there that have already been through this. I would think that moving above 31.8 gr will create a very compressed load. Any others tested above 31.8 gr of CFE 223? Thanks in advance for your input.
  • cory
    Chieftain
    • Jun 2012
    • 2985

    #2
    Huh that does seem slow. Did you fire any loads of known velocities at the same sitting, like Hornady factory loads?

    With 123gr Nosler HPBT from my 16" Bartlein I get 2500 fps at 31.7gr of CFE. I hit max pressure signs at 32.4gr. I believe some have been able to push it further before seeing max pressure.

    Push your charge a little further, just take your time and be cognizant of what your velocity tells you.

    CFE tends to do well under a slightly compressed load.
    "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

    Comment

    • Boostmeister
      Bloodstained
      • Sep 2014
      • 63

      #3
      Thanks for the response Cory. I didn't shoot any factory loads in the same session, but did fire about a dozen rounds of 8208 XBR at 28.5 gr and got the expected 2500 fps. Can't get back to the range till about Wednesday, but will start at 31.8 and perhaps work up in .2 gr increments watching for pressure signs. By the way, all charges were weighed with an RCBS Chargemaster.

      Comment

      • pds
        Warrior
        • Dec 2012
        • 128

        #4
        Boost,
        31.6g of CFE in a 22" PF upper gives me 2575fps with Nosler 123 CCBT bullets which I find good enough for me.

        PDS
        Last edited by pds; 06-06-2015, 10:23 PM.

        Comment

        • Jakal
          Warrior
          • May 2014
          • 376

          #5
          Funny, I just ran into the same thing. My 20" Lilja puts 31.6 right at 2525 fps with CFE, Hornady brass and a 123 SST. 4:00 ejection

          My 20" Bartlein just ran a charge ladder of 31 to 31.9 in .3 grain inc.
          Top velocities were 2435 fps. Lapua brass and 123 Scenars. 2:30 to 3:00 ejection. Need to dial back the SLR gas block a little bit more. Was running wide open but closed back to the 10 click.

          CCI450's on both loads.

          The Hornady factory loads run right 2550fps on both rifles and 4:30 ejection.

          I actually settled on 27.8 of AR-Comp with the Hornady brass & 123 SST for the wifes Lilja. I already have a ladder of AR-Comp, Lapua brass and 123 Scenars for my Bartlein. With concerns of temp stability with CFE, I may just use AR-Comp.
          Last edited by Jakal; 06-06-2015, 07:20 PM.
          ""Come taste my Shillelagh you goat-eatin bastard!""

          Comment

          • Boostmeister
            Bloodstained
            • Sep 2014
            • 63

            #6
            PDS & Jakal - Thanks for the feedback. Must say I'm a bit surprised by the velocity numbers. I may try to squeeze out a bit more (in small increments) and see where it takes me. Maybe I was expecting more from CFE than can be expected (within reason). Will try to get out to the range next week to do some additional testing and will post results. Gets a bit scary when going into unknown territory. Did enough of that in South East Asia 48 years ago. Really appreciate all the help guys!

            Comment

            • davidj
              Warrior
              • Sep 2014
              • 127

              #7
              31.5 CFE gave me about 2550 out of my 20" Shilen. I was loading 123 Amax and Hornady brass. I stopped using it because it wasn't as accurate as 28.5 8208 which gives me 2550fps.
              Never walk away from home ahead of your axe and sword. You can't feel a battle in your bones or foresee a fight. -The Havamal

              Comment

              • oxn316
                Unwashed
                • Sep 2014
                • 9

                #8
                Cfe is giving me 2720 out of an origional aa 24" tube.

                Comment

                • Boostmeister
                  Bloodstained
                  • Sep 2014
                  • 63

                  #9
                  onx316 - how much powder to get 2720? That's about 200 fps faster than what I am seeing in a 20" Shilen barrel, and normally I would expect to see about 75-90 fps increase with the 4" of additional barrel length. Perhaps CFE needs a longer tube to take advantage of the slower burn rate. What chrono were you using to test with?

                  Comment

                  • LRRPF52
                    Super Moderator
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 8569

                    #10
                    16" AA Barrel/Bolt Combo I built up into a little carbine.

                    Lapua brass, 123gr A-MAX, Rem 7.5 Primers, CFE223, 2.275" COL

                    60 * F

                    31.1gr 2489
                    31.4gr 2520
                    31.7gr 2532
                    32.0gr 2553
                    _____________________
                    32.3gr 2572
                    32.6gr 2598
                    32.9gr 2612

                    That was a pressure-test ladder to see where it would depart. I personally won't mass-produce a load beyond 31.9gr, which keeps me at or under 50,000psi.

                    Here's the original thread: http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...6-quot-Grendel
                    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                    www.AR15buildbox.com

                    Comment

                    • NugginFutz
                      Chieftain
                      • Aug 2013
                      • 2622

                      #11
                      Originally posted by oxn316 View Post
                      Cfe is giving me 2720 out of an origional aa 24" tube.
                      With which pill? 123 Amax?
                      If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

                      Comment

                      • oxn316
                        Unwashed
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 9

                        #12
                        31.8 cfe with 123 amax. Speed is confirmed with drop data to 1k.

                        Comment

                        • rball
                          Unwashed
                          • Nov 2014
                          • 16

                          #13
                          This afternoon, I conducted the following tests using a Magnetospeed chrony. Temperature: 76-78 F
                          CFE 223, OAL 2.250", Hornady Brass, Prvi Partisan 120g HPBT, 20" Shilen bbl. Primers: Winchester SR, CCI SR (400)

                          31.0 gr: 2506 fps 31.0 gr: 2502 fps
                          31.2 gr: 2517 fps 31.2 gr: 2508 fps
                          31.4 gr: 2554 fps 31.4 gr: 2533 fps
                          31.6 gr: 2562 fps 31.6 gr: 2537 fps
                          31.8 gr: 2585 fps 31.8 gr: 2573 fps

                          I didn't see any signs of pressure with any of these loads.

                          Comment

                          • sneaky one
                            Chieftain
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 3077

                            #14
                            I just built the same carbine--16 " button rifled. Same as L -52's unit. Not had time at range yet. I would be okay at 32.0
                            Last edited by sneaky one; 06-09-2015, 03:40 AM.

                            Comment

                            • Boostmeister
                              Bloodstained
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 63

                              #15
                              The more I read, the more confused I get. A 16" tube with a charge of 31.4 gr is producing the same velocity that I am seeing with 31.8 gr in a 20" tube. Hopefully I will be able to get back out to the range tomorrow with some rounds at 31.8 (to repeat my finishing load from the last test), 32.0, 32.2, 32.4, and 32.6 gr. I know those are small increments, but I am cautious by nature,....well sort of. I will shoot the loads over my Oehler 35P at a distance of 10 feet and keep a watchful eye on the primers and brass. Thanks for all the feedback guys.

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