123 grain AMAX, CFE 223 and BLC(2) learning curve

[rickt300]

Well I worked up to 30.8 grains of BLC2, CCI 400 primer and the 123 gr. AMAX, with a COAL of 2.3. This is a bolt action Mini HOWA HB. Got some really nice groups just under MOA. However this does not match what the factory Hornady SST will do. So I tried CFE223 working up to 31.0 grains and trying shorter COAL's. Made it down to 2.275 only to find groups got larger as the rounds got shorter. As the primers I had were not the CCI 450 that are said to be much better I decided to go back to BLC2. I shot 18 rounds before my groups settled back down! I learned that cleaning the barrel between using these two powders will save some wasted shooting. However the BLC2 load is now shooting nearly as well as the Hornady factory load. I never thought I would have to work at beating a factory load either. I also sorted the blem AMAX's, noting that the 123.4 to 123.6 weighed bullets had the most roughness under the tip. The ones 123.3 which is what most of them weighed had no roughness at the front edge of the jacket. I'm thinking I will buy some factory firsts soon and test them as there have been some unexplained flyers.

[lrgrendel]

Any photos?
What size groups? 3 5?
What distance?

[rickt300]

100 yards, three shot groups as I was ducking the rain and shooting quickly. I"m going to get a pound of ARComp to test next, not feeling it for CFE. I guess you could call one of the groups a nine shot group as I shot three different three shot groups on the same target. One shot out of the nine opened up the average to 1.23 edge to edge. I need to build a cover for my shooting bench.

[Arrieta578]

Rick,

I am very new to rifle reloading and I am also experimenting with Hornady's 120 gr. ELD-M and the 123 gr. AMAX with BL-(C)2. I am testing 5 round groups at 100 yards in an Odin Works 20" barrel with 1/8 twist. My rifle shoots the factory Hornady 123 gr. AMAX and SSTs very well. So far, I have worked up to 30.5 gr. of BL-(C)2. I am using Hornady brass, CCI #41 primers, and COAL of 2.245. The Hornady manual suggests that as the max load, but I seen other reloading data that puts max. at 31.5 gr. of BL-(C)2. I've tried going to 31.3 gr. of BL-(C)2 with the 120 gr. ELDs, but the groups really opened up. I got my best groups with 30.3, 30.5, and 30.9 gr. of BL-(C)2. Your post has me rethinking my 30.7 group (which sucked). I am very satisfied with the two groupings below, but my main concern is velocity. These rounds impacted about an 1.5" lower (.4 Mils) than Hornady's factory loads and I'd like to push them out to 1000 yards. My concern is that they are considerably slower than the 2580 fps of the factory loads and won't stay supersonic that far. This weekend, if the weather holds, I plan to chronograph them to see exactly what my numbers are. Any information you, or anyone else for that matter, can add would be greatly appreciated. Here are my best groups:

Note: the COAL of this round was 2.245, NOT 2.225




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[rickt300]

I don't know what the velocity is but I am running a bolt action with a much deeper throat than most AR barrels. I am not sure I would use point of impact differences to decide if one load was faster than another though you could be right. I know this is blasphemy to say but i believe the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed specifically to be the smallest cartridge that easily stays supersonic out to slightly past the 1000 yard line. In my sullied opinion the Grendel is a medium range hunting and target round that barely makes the grade at 1000 yards.

[Arrieta578]

Rick, in regards to your comment that your BL-(C)2 loads are now shooting nearly as well as the factory Hornady loads, do they have the same POI? Also, it never occurred to me, until I re-read your first post, that bullets can actually vary slightly in weight and that can affect accuracy and POI. Is that true for factory firsts?

As to the Grendel and shooting 1000 yards... I'm just trying to hit paper and perhaps ring some steel with it. I built it knowing it was an inferior substitute for the AR-10. But, I've learned that even a 100 fps at the muzzle does have a significant impact on performance at distance. Hence my concern regarding velocity.

[LRRPF52]

I don't know what the velocity is but I am running a bolt action with a much deeper throat than most AR barrels. I am not sure I would use point of impact differences to decide if one load was faster than another though you could be right. I know this is blasphemy to say but i believe the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed specifically to be the smallest cartridge that easily stays supersonic out to slightly past the 1000 yard line. In my sullied opinion the Grendel is a medium range hunting and target round that barely makes the grade at 1000 yards.

6.5 Creedmoor and .260 Remington stay supersonic way past 1000yds, even from 18" barrels.

A 20" 6.5 Grendel at sea level has no trouble keeping a 123gr Scenar, 123gr SMK, or 123gr ELD-M supersonic out to 1000yds. The 123gr AMAX will be supersonic out to 960yds, assuming a 2550fps mv. The tighter the twist, the better the stability at those ranges, leading to more predictable hit probability.

A 22" .260 Rem shooting the 130gr Berger VLD will stay supersonic out to 1275yds at sea level, with a 2800fps mv. Weight of my particular .260 is about twice the weight of my 18" Grendel, and both are more than supersonic past 1100yds for me at my elevations.

With my Lilja 318 here in the Salt Lake Valley, I'm supersonic out to 1150yds with 123gr Scenar.

With the 120gr Scenal-L, I'm supersonic out to 1100yds.

With a 22"-24", I would be supersonic out to 1250 with the 123gr Scenar.

You start to see why my .260 Rem doesn't get shot much, and why I haven't finished my 24" Grendel yet.

[Arrieta578]

A 20" 6.5 Grendel at sea level has no trouble keeping a 123gr Scenar, 123gr SMK, or 123gr ELD-M supersonic out to 1000yds. The 123gr AMAX will be supersonic out to 960yds, assuming a 2550fps mv. The tighter the twist, the better the stability at those ranges, leading to more predictable hit probability.

Any idea how many grains of BL-(C)2 I need to achieve 2600 fps mv out of a 20" barrel with a 1/8 twist? --lol!

[LRRPF52]

Any idea how many grains of BL-(C)2 I need to achieve 2600 fps mv out of a 20" barrel with a 1/8 twist? --lol!

CFE223 or LEVERevolution will get you there, not BL-(C)2 normally.

[rickt300]

I didn't mean to sound negative with the "barely makes the grade" comment and I was thinking about the AMAX and the SST. For what I plan to use the round for, a suppressed hog killer with use on deer to 300 yards or so it seems perfect. I know it can be used farther but I already have several rifles built for the beyond 300 yard shooting at game I might do and they have to get some trigger time. The longest range I have access to is 600 yards and in reality if the wind isn't too bad hitting the 12 inch gong at that distance isn't that tough. BL-(C)2 was just one of the powders I had on hand when I started loading the Grendel, I have graduated to LeverEvolution and CFE223 now that I have plenty of CCI450 primers.

[Bwild97]

The federal GM205m and LVR play very well together, some of the tightest ES and SD I have ever seen. VihtaVuori N133 also does very well with CCi#41, Rem 7.5 and Tula.223 primers.

[Bobke]

LRRP
Have an ample supply of 120 Scenar L's I'd picked up from Grafs when on sale and have been working with 8208 and CFE, with a pretty good accuracy result at 31.6gr CFE and RP 7 1/2 primer, but only 2502/4.9 SD in AR319 Lilja barrel. Curious what charge/powder you're using to reach 1100yd supersonic range with 120's. Thx, Paul.

[Arrieta578]

I got out and shot Saturday again. My plan was to chronograph my loads, but my friend who was going to bring his chronograph cancelled. He's an ole' cogger --fell down while putting on his shoes and sprained his neck, bruised his arms, and smacked his head. Getting old is not for the faint of heart. Take care of yourselves!

Anyway, I was able to confirm that 30.3-30.5 gr. of BL-C2 shoots the tightest groups in my 20" barrel with the 123gr. AMAX and the 120 gr. ELD-M. After this, I shot some out of the box factory Hornady 123 gr. SSTs and found that the POI for the SSTs at 100 yards was about 1" lower. I'm hoping that's an indication that my velocity is decent, but without a chronograph I'm just guessing. I'm also thinking I need to work on my fundamentals when it comes to shooting off the bench. I don't have a ton of experience doing that.

As I am totally green when it comes to rifle reloading, all these powders options are overwhelming. Is there somewhere I can read up on the differences? I've also come to the conclusion that owning a chronograph is essential for rifle reloading. Will a Caldwell cheapie do? I saw the new version on sale at Natchez that connects to an iPhone for $80 for the basic version, and $117 for the complete kit. Should I get the complete kit? Will any tripod work? What are the wires and black box that connect to the sunshades for in the complete kit? Any other recommendations? Your input is greatly appreciated.

Here are pics of my groups. I believe I am to blame for flyer.





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[grayfox]

POI changes of 1" in any direction for 100 yd doesn't tell you anything about which load might be "Faster." Barrel whip and harmonics could be the total reason for the difference. As to chrony, don't sell yourself too cheaply...
i use a magnetospeed and for work at the firing line/ range it is IMO the best way to travel. It also calculates your max, min, avg, ES and SD for the group of shots. Doesn't need sunshine or sunshades. Use it for velocities, it could change your POI while attached but so what... you can get the POI's in the same session by just taking it off.

[Commander184]

Well I worked up to 30.8 grains of BLC2, CCI 400 primer and the 123 gr. AMAX, with a COAL of 2.3. This is a bolt action Mini HOWA HB. Got some really nice groups just under MOA. However this does not match what the factory Hornady SST will do. So I tried CFE223 working up to 31.0 grains and trying shorter COAL's. Made it down to 2.275 only to find groups got larger as the rounds got shorter. As the primers I had were not the CCI 450 that are said to be much better I decided to go back to BLC2. I shot 18 rounds before my groups settled back down! I learned that cleaning the barrel between using these two powders will save some wasted shooting. However the BLC2 load is now shooting nearly as well as the Hornady factory load. I never thought I would have to work at beating a factory load either. I also sorted the blem AMAX's, noting that the 123.4 to 123.6 weighed bullets had the most roughness under the tip. The ones 123.3 which is what most of them weighed had no roughness at the front edge of the jacket. I'm thinking I will buy some factory firsts soon and test them as there have been some unexplained flyers.

I think your fliers are the first shot. Cold barrel velocities are low but when the next 4 rounds are cooked from a heating chamber. Your groups look like mine. The chronograph comfirmed it too. SD was 11 take the flyer out and it went down to 6. I guess when I zeroed I did at the cooked speed.