Comparing factory 6.5 and other calibers

[Lightstrider]

I'm very interested in getting into 6.5 from what I've initially read but I'm wondering if anyone can share some more reading, their opinions and experience or some stats about the available 6.5 factory choices and how they relate to 5.56 and 7.62x51 choices.

So what has actually hooked my interest into 6.5 is the availability of the cheap imported WPA 100gr steel cased FMJs for $.23 so I can actually affordably shoot the caliber to begin with. Reviews say it's decent, primer may be harder than brass but they're getting ~2MOA, 2486fps. I'm not too knowledgeable on bullets and ballistics, so what can be said about this versus the equivalent Wolf 55/62gr FMJs, HP, SP and then M193 and M855? The 223s might be faster, but they aren't exactly accurate nor will they reliably fragment according to some ways to look at it. The other thing is that 223 is not exactly an ideal all around hunting cartridge, especially with these cheaper varieties.

What would you guys say about the 100gr Wolf in comparison to the 308 imported 140-150gr FMJs/SPs for $.35-40? I guess the actual WPA 308 FMJ is $.49 so that's double the price of the WPA 100gr 6.5. I'm sure hunting with the Wolf SP 140gr is viable compared to the 223 SP equivalent, but how do you guys think the 6.5 100gr FMJ compares to these in a hunting or self defense setting?

Then we get up to around $1 and for 6.5 we've got the 123gr SST and AMAX. How does the 123gr SST compare to the 223 soft point hunting choices which I guess are only $.50 but for $1 you've got all kinds of choices from barrier to open tip match but they are still small bullets. For 308 you've got some very powerful and accurate choices but of course 308 is much heavier so I'm wondering how well the 6.5 SST and AMAX keep up with them?

For now there are much more choices for 223 and 308, but are they all really absolutely necessary? 223 with their TAP this, TAP that, frangible, jacketed soft point, barrier blind, bonded.... 308 has thunder, power shok, corbon poly tip, razorcore blah blah.... a lot of these or similar I'm sure you can get for 6.5 to load yourself? Of course they have all these 223 bullets to make up for 223s inherent lacking and trying to make it more like 308 maybe.

6.5 seems simple to me and I like it: 100gr FMJ to stack and shoot, 123gr SST to hunt and defend, 123gr AMAX for being as accurate as possible for any situation.

[Kilco]

6.5 Grendel, like most of Hornadys fav cartridges, (204 Ruger, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Cream-horn) have some of if not the best factory loaded ammo at very good prices... for me, it used to be unheared of for factory ammo to be BETTER than a tuned handload.. Hornady has bucked this trend with some of their offerings.

[BluntForceTrauma]

6.5 seems simple to me and I like it: 100gr FMJ to stack and shoot, 123gr SST to hunt and defend, 123gr AMAX for being as accurate as possible for any situation.

You've about summed it up!

[chaps]

Seems like you're really asking, what would I get for my $$ with a 308 or 223 that I won't get with a 6.5G, and do I really need it? That'd be tough to answer definitively, but its a question I've asked numerous times before with various calibers, and what I've found (not specific to any caliber):

- human eyeballs are good to about 200 yds at their best, and go downhill over time. If I'm shooting with iron sights or red dot, I'm not shooting past 200yds. I would gain nothing with a 600-1000yd caliber.
- Older I get, the less I like to lay down, or sit still; so I like rifles I can carry, for hours if needs be, shoulder rapidly, and feel confident. Which means a lighter rifle, possibly shorter rifle ... which means I'm willing to give up performance from heavier action, longer barrel (308).
- Scopes add weight; since I don't like to lay down or sit still, I don't like heavier scopes. A lighter scope, probably means shorter ranges ... say 300-400yds. When I look at 308 vs 6.5G out to 400yds, I see no benefit to the 308.
- Older I get, the less I like recoil ... light rifles do not absorb recoil as well as heavy rifles. But 6.5G in a lighter rifle gives great performance to my ranges, with minimal recoil.
- And I love to shoot ... steel, reactive targets, paper, golf balls. If I shoot less than 500rds on a range day, something is wrong. Of that, about 40-60 will be CF rifle, unless I have folks along in which case cheap steel WPA is great for familiarization. Cheap ammo means more trigger time means greater accuracy, which means shot placement improves, which reduces benefit of a heavier caliber.
- I'm like most American hunters; our average range to game taken is only ~83yds, per all the national stat collectors. Its not worth it to me to spend more money on something that doesn't make it any deader, just to enjoy the higher recoil.

But how I'd answer the cost vs. value question is more about how I intend to use it. Others will answer it differently - best of luck!

[StoneHendge]

When my 22" JP barrel arrives I will have 2 rifles in each of the calibers you mention. Each one has a different purpose and it really depends on what you see yourself doing with it the most. With a bipod and scope, my POF P308 is heavy - and it has a 16" barrel and is relatively light for an AR10. It's a joy to dump a 25 round mag of Military ball (I backed the truck up when sportmans guide was selling IMI ball for 52 cents shipped) and that will put a smile on your face like nothing else. It also shoots Federal Gold Medal Match (which can be found for $1) at 3/4 MOA at 200 yards. But is heavy, has a lot more recoil and is loud. 308 can put a lot more energy on a target, but for long range purposes, it doesn't do anything else that a Grendel can't. My 18" Grendel actually has slightly longer legs at range than my 20" Ruger precision in 308. But then again, I can push a 110 gr Varmageddon at 3300 fps and get 1/4 MOA with the RPR.

I could sit behind my Anderson 556 with a 24" bull barrel and shoot out to 600 yards on a calm day all day long if I had the time to make enough ammo. And it shoots the Ausralian Outback 69 gr SMK factory ammo which can be found for around 60 cents almost as well as my handloads. It doesn't have much more recoil than a 22lr and is relatively quiet. But it's cumbersome and not something you'd even think of shooting other than prone or on a bench. The only hunting it does from a table behind my truck on the outskirts of Dog Town. My non 308 blasting is done with a 556 carbine, so I don't use steel case in my Grendel since I'd rather save its barrel life for longer range shooting. I'll let my 556 carbine barrel get a lot hotter than I would ever let my Grendel barrel get. And the 556 carbine is not inaccurate - I can get prone and dump a mag of XM193 with the stock unsupported rotating between the 6" gong and life size chicken at 200 yards at my range with a 3x prism scope usually hitting between 80-90%. Everyone else at the range usually stops shooting when I get to the 7th or 8th shot.

Everything is a compromise and I find the realm of firearms to be no different. Grendel is a very happy bridge between 223 and 308 and if you were to make a checklist of the things you are looking for, Grendel would end up with the most boxes checked. And if you could only have one rifle, you plan on shooting that rifle often, plan on doing different types of shooting and don't expect to draw a moose tag any time soon, it definitely has the most to offer.

[barrelcactus]

This meme is floating around facebook and sums it up nicely.

Go shill somewhere else for your Facebook agenda.

[Lightstrider]

With all the hunting and tactical rounds available for 5.56, what do you 6.5 guys have to say about choosing the 6.5 SST, AMAX, your hand loads over the 5.56? Hunting with a 223 isn't 100% practical, ethical or even legal in some places but I think you can get away with it using some of the finer bullet choices. When you think of the effects of some of those nice 5.56 frangible, hunting, tactical rounds, what makes the 6.5 still a better choice for you and your needs/wants?

[Bigs28]

Hunting with a 223 isn't 100% practical, ethical or even legal in some places

You answered your own question.

[A5BLASTER]

With all the hunting and tactical rounds available for 5.56, what do you 6.5 guys have to say about choosing the 6.5 SST, AMAX, your hand loads over the 5.56? Hunting with a 223 isn't 100% practical, ethical or even legal in some places but I think you can get away with it using some of the finer bullet choices. When you think of the effects of some of those nice 5.56 frangible, hunting, tactical rounds, what makes the 6.5 still a better choice for you and your needs/wants?

Same and or better selection of those nice rounds in factory offerings, and more bullet to impact a animal or person but still low enough recoil to be fun to shoot at volume.

That's my thoughts in a nut shell.

[ah1whiskey]

low recoil, mild report and flash, excellent down range range power retention , and it fits in the standard AR-15 mag-well .

ammo is not expensive any more-- wolf steel is about the same price as their steel 5.56

i have used 7.62x39, 5,45-39 and 6.8 spc conversions . my preference is for the 6.5g as best overall.

[Lightstrider]

I've also considered just getting a new AR upper in 7.62x39, despite it having more power under 200m than 6.5, beyond that the rainbow trajectory will come into consideration for which to choose.

[LRRPF52]

I've also considered just getting a new AR upper in 7.62x39, despite it having more power under 200m than 6.5, beyond that the rainbow trajectory will come into consideration for which to choose.

7.62x39 does not have more power than 6.5 Grendel anywhere, from the muzzle on out.

They both shoot a 123gr as the most common projectile weight.

A 16" AR15 chambered in 7.62x39 has 2350fps muzzle velocity.

16" Grendel has 2450fps, with a BC 2 whole numbers higher.

Even a 12" Grendel outdoes the 16" 7.62x39 shooting the same bullet weight.

[ah1whiskey]

i've have a 7.62x39

here are its issues

#1 the mags take a lot of work to run correctly if they ever do.

#2 most 7.62x39 ammo has deep and hard primers.

#3 the 7.62x39 has a rather plunging trajectory at anything that is even slightly considered long range.

#4 factory ammo is horribly inconstant and prints all over the place.

#5 good ammo for a 7,62x39 costs as much as quality 6.5 and cheap ammo is only slightly less than steel cases 6.5 for me the cheap steel 6.5 seems to shoot way better--

#6 contact me i have a 7.62x39 barrel and bolt if your interested--lol

[Lightstrider]

Well it seems like I've been convinced into going with 6.5 Grendel and can't be convinced out of it.

I've discussed it elsewhere and have gotten responses like:

"it doesn't do much more than you could get from a 77 grain .223 at much lower costs in parts and ammunition without risking the integrity of the bolt or having to use special magazines"

"And then there's the magazine issue."

"Have you seen the wolf ammo the OP is inquiring to? 2600fps from a 24" barrel with a 100 grain projectile. It's complete shit."

"there is 10x as much of .308 and 7.62NATO to choose from."

"At 175 yards and under I'd rather have a 7.62x39 or 300"

"The 6.5 g is no 308. It might have a higher BC but not the energy."

" Oh here we go, another 6.5 grendel thread. Any minute now all of the Ross Perot wannabes will be coming in posting all of their charts and graphs pushing the 6.5 G. "

"You've seen how much grendel rifles, ammo, and parts cost. If you spent that kind of money on a gimmick too you'd be in here defending your choice and ego at all costs too. Give the suckers a break and let them keep thinking they have a .308 in an AR-15. "

"If 7.63x39 puts more energy on target at 200 yards then that's what I'd take at that range and under."

"If grendel had cheap ammo that would extend the range of an AR15 over 5.56 I would probably buy it, but it doesn't. When I want to shoot cheaply I use 5.56 and am able to range out just far cheap wolf grendel ammo could. When I want to pay $1 a round I'll use the 6.5CM AR10 which at 1, 000 yards has 90% more energy, 10 ft less drop and also bucks the wind better than Grendel's best match loads."

"Once you get into match ammo, heavy match 5.56 will only have nominal difference in flight patterns out to 500m. For me, my needs would have to exceed 500m or 600m in order to justify 6.5g. And then, I'm using my 6.5CM."

" My problem is that I don't see what the Grendel will really do for me in most cases that a good AR in 7.62x39 won't. If the answer is that the Grendel is better for longer range shooting (which looks like it's pretty obviously the case), then why not divorce yourself from the AR15 magwell and go for an even better long-range 6.5 like the CM?"

"6.5 Creedmore is getting tons of press. USSOCOM is process of evaluating 6.5 c now. Meanwhile, 6.5G is going nowhere...it is not going to gain traction against 5.56x45 in USA... "

There is some love for the 6.5 though too, about how parts aren't expensive, magazines and bolts are working now, that it will do better than MK262 from the muzzle out and even better as range increases, that people on this forum prove even the cheap 6.5 wolf is great on hogs, it might have more energy than 308 at 1000m, outperforms anything to .30cal, you can't compare 6.5G to 6.5C, etc etc.

I've been trying to poke around see what kind of responses I get. For me 6.5G seems like it will fulfill exactly the role I want it to. If I wanted a bigger bullet I have my 308 which I can get cheap rounds to shoot unlike 6.5C, now I assume though that if 6.5C gets more attention then it will be the go to heavier rifle caliber where 308 currently reigns.

[LRRPF52]

"it doesn't do much more than you could get from a 77 grain .223 at much lower costs in parts and ammunition without risking the integrity of the bolt or having to use special magazines"
I've been shooting 77gr, 75gr, 69gr, and 68gr .223 Match for many years on target in my DM Courses out to 600yds. Hit probability immediately goes up once you step into the 6.5 Grendel, due to wind drift, and you can actually hear 6.5 Grendel hit the target. I don't shoot my .223 Wylde rifles anymore in my DM courses.

"And then there's the magazine issue." You need different magazines for 6.5 Grendel, which are anywhere from $13 to $22 per. Not seeing how that's an issue.

"Have you seen the wolf ammo the OP is inquiring to? 2600fps from a 24" barrel with a 100 grain projectile. It's complete s***.". It's 23 cents a piece, works well, and allows people to practice on the cheap.

"there is 10x as much of .308 and 7.62NATO to choose from." There are 42 factory Grendel loads, all of which are half the recoil of .308, but you're able to see your own hits, without stepping up to a large frame AR10.

"At 175 yards and under I'd rather have a 7.62x39 or 300"Why would you want less performance from one of the most mediocre cartridges ever developed, when you can have 6.5 Grendel?

"The 6.5 g is no 308. It might have a higher BC but not the energy." True. Both have plenty of energy. Grendel catches up as the distance gets farther due to BC, unless you hand load 185gr Bergers in the .308 Win.

" Oh here we go, another 6.5 grendel thread. Any minute now all of the Ross Perot wannabes will be coming in posting all of their charts and graphs pushing the 6.5 G. "????

"You've seen how much grendel rifles, ammo, and parts cost. If you spent that kind of money on a gimmick too you'd be in here defending your choice and ego at all costs too. Give the suckers a break and let them keep thinking they have a .308 in an AR-15. "Complete Anderson uppers are $399 or less. You can step into mid-range uppers for $500-$700 a piece, or higher end if you want.

"If 7.63x39 puts more energy on target at 200 yards then that's what I'd take at that range and under."It doesn't even have Grendel energy at the muzzle, and 7.62x39 123gr BC is in the .250 G1 range. 123gr 6.5mm is in the .462 to .527 G1 range. 7.62x39 is a joke compared to 6.5 Grendel across all the parameters you can think of looking at performance.

"If grendel had cheap ammo that would extend the range of an AR15 over 5.56 I would probably buy it, but it doesn't. When I want to shoot cheaply I use 5.56 and am able to range out just far cheap wolf grendel ammo could. When I want to pay $1 a round I'll use the 6.5CM AR10 which at 1, 000 yards has 90% more energy, 10 ft less drop and also bucks the wind better than Grendel's best match loads."Wolf steel case. 6.5 CM does not have 90% more energy than 6.5 Grendel. 6.5 Grendel has 77% of the energy of the CM at 1000yds. They need to show their work if they are going to make these types of unsupported claims.

"Once you get into match ammo, heavy match 5.56 will only have nominal difference in flight patterns out to 500m. For me, my needs would have to exceed 500m or 600m in order to justify 6.5g. And then, I'm using my 6.5CM." Wind drift and retained energy behind 6.5 Grendel is noticeable enough at 400yds that you can actually hear 6.5 Grendel impact when you have wind. 500yds is very difficult to connect on 18" plates with 5.56 in the wind, and when you do hit, you often can't hear it when there is 7-10mph wind.

" My problem is that I don't see what the Grendel will really do for me in most cases that a good AR in 7.62x39 won't. If the answer is that the Grendel is better for longer range shooting (which looks like it's pretty obviously the case), then why not divorce yourself from the AR15 magwell and go for an even better long-range 6.5 like the CM?"The Grendel also hits harder within close ranges compared to 7.62x39. When you step up to 6.5 CM, you need a larger rifle, with ammunition that often does not play well with the AR10 gas system. This requires an extended length gas system, small aperture firing pin bolt, and tuning of the overall system to 6.5CM, since port pressure is much higher than 147gr FMJ M80.

"6.5 Creedmore is getting tons of press. USSOCOM is process of evaluating 6.5 c now. Meanwhile, 6.5G is going nowhere...it is not going to gain traction against 5.56x45 in USA... "
6.5 CM is being looked at a sniper cartridge, not something you fit in the AR15.

6.5 Grendel is one of a handful of cartridges that has both Wolf steel case, and Federal Gold Medal Match. For those that think it isn't going anywhere, they are then left with the burden of explaining why so many large ammo manufacturers are making more ammo for it, and why it and the AR15 are growing in popularity together, whereas 5.56 seems to be hitting giveaway prices for both barrels and ammo.

Sounds like the place that made all these comments is filled with people who are really uninformed.