Wolf Grendel Ammo - What am I missing?

[SG4247]

So, I have read as much as I have time to (over the years), on the Wolf steel case ammo discussion and I really don't get it. Don't take these points as my loyalty to anyone or anything. Just consider my notes for the sake of discussion.

Seriously, I really don't recognize all the press and anticipation for this ammo as being significant for the Grendel AR sport shooting/hunting community in this country.

1. Cheap steel ammo from Russia, if really available in decent quantities: I am not wanting steel case ammo for my match grade chambers and bolt/barrel extension components. No discussion here, I am not using steel case anything. Damn sure not with problematic lacquer coatings.

2. Improved MV - not likely, due to military reliability goals.

3. Great accuracy - not likely, 1.5 MOA?

4. Compatible with the all the Grendel chambers, throats, and variants that now exist?
Not likely, but if it is - will it be accurate? Is this Grendel SAAMI compliant for case dimensions, AA website doesnt say....

5. Great military ground troop round? Maybe. Not long range capable due to low MV & marginal BC (107 match king is approx .400) but better than 5.56.

6. If ammo from Wolf improves Grendel military adaption options worldwide, what do Horde members stand to gain. Nothing - AA and other potential US Grendel rifle manufactures already cannot support the parts demand from the private sector. So we see additional strain on a manufacturing base that can't support us now with parts and rifles, and this improves with added military contracts?

7. Will other ammo manufactures follow Wolf's lead? Not likely. Lots of risk and cost, many throat variations, high liability, low volume, and a difficult price point - especially if Wolf can supply enough to meet demand. Hornady already has the accuracy/hunting market at a reasonable price point, they just cant deliver.

8. Will Wolf steel case be a great hunting ammo? Perhaps, if it is reliable, keeps its down range energy and retained bullet mass. Okay for varmints, if its accurate?

9. What about these large primers? Can they really be reliable?

9. Would Wolf Grendel ammo be great plinking ammo? Probably, if plinking is what you do with your kids. Maybe its just for fun?

10. Would Wolf Grendel steel case be attractive to spec ops? Doubt it, now we are talking short range, high energy like 300 AAC, & 6.8 SPC class w/subsonic options, for effective terminations in close quarters. I thought the Grendel's value was in longer range?

11. Would Wolf steel case run in my FA AR-15? Yes, probably. Great for the zombie invasion, if you just happen to have a Form 4 FA Grendel in the house, with a magazine that holds and functions with more than six of those heavy steel cased rounds, and plenty of zombies in sight...

So help me...

Why the anticipation?

[JASmith]

I have been accused, most likely accurately, of over-thinking an issue more than once, so I think I can help clarify.

First, many shooters don't worry about barrel life unless their buds scare them with tales of "use two magazines of this ammo and the rifling is gone" rather than the more accurate statement that "this ammo saves enough money that I can afford to replace the barrel, should I shoot that much."

Second, how else can one get plinking & blasting ammo at a price that is hard to beat even with handloads?

Third, the stuff being so hard to reload means that you don't have to hunt the 'brass', so that curse is lifted from shooting in the field.

How else can one say "This ammo appeals to the fun factor?"

Also, many folks view this development as an indication that the cartridge is being taken seriously as a potential military cartridge, which brings a whole new dimension of interest.

[montana]

1. My family and I love to shoot our AR's in a typical three gun type course ranging from 15 to 300 yards. Cheaper steel case Grendel ammo means we can use our Grendel rifles instead of just our 5.56 rifles.

2. Our shooting is more inclined for fun and improved rifle handling in multi-gun type proficiency.

3. I see no problems using steel Grendel ammo in our rifles but until I obtain some I will have to wait and see how well it functions.

4. I have other ammo for precision, hunting, and long range shooting but again I will have to see what the limits of this new steel ammo will be.

5.If wolf creates more demand for the Grendel I'm more than confident the production of Grendel supplies will increase by businesses to meet the demand. If there is a market, money and profit can be a big motivator.

6.I have many different bullet weights and loads for my 5.56 ammo be it for hunting coyotes, gophers, multi gun or self defense. Why would more options for the Grendel be a bad thing? It is hard to justify shooting a high round count at steel targets using expensive Grendel ammo but cheaper steel case ammo could make it possible. My daughter loves her Grendel more than any other rifle she owns but I have restricted it to only hunting and low round count practice. It is cheaper for her to shoot her 5.56 rifle but If the steel case Grendel ammo arrives in quantity this will change. It is also a lot cheaper to shoot in full auto.

7. I love to shoot muzzle loaders, shot guns , handguns, rifles of all makes and calibers. Any time ammunition becomes cheaper it means I can shoot more. The 6.5 Grendel is my favorite caliber in the AR platform and I welcome the steel case Wolf ammo for this reason.

[stanc]

Seriously, I really don't recognize all the press and anticipation for this ammo as being significant for the Grendel AR sport shooting/hunting community in this country.

Personally, I don't see the Wolf steel-case ammo having nearly as great of an impact as others here expect.

As to your questions/comments:

1. Cheap steel ammo from Russia, if really available in decent quantities: I am not wanting steel case ammo for my match grade chambers and bolt/barrel extension components. No discussion here, I am not using steel case anything. Damn sure not with problematic lacquer coatings.

I'm not sure what your issue is here. Nobody is demanding that you shoot the Wolf ammo in your match grade rifle. You are free to not shoot it, and I'm sure no one will complain if you opt out.

As for what you call "problematic" lacquer coating, it has reportedly been thoroughly tested. According to Bill A in a December 2011 post, "The green lacquer quandry that it sticks cases proved to be unfounded utterly. I was always questioning why the Russians who have a propensity for fully automatic fire would ever use a case finish that was detrimental to function. Given the chamber design it was seen that the green stuff actually helped as everything got hot/cold/dirty."

However, in a more recent post, Bill did seem to be somewhat less certain about this issue, saying: "The green lacquer coating proved to be superior in the testing of this caliber. This is not to say it is always the case but with the length to diameter ratio of the cartridge and also the operating pressures we saw marked improvements in feed and extraction with the green lacquer over all other coatings. In abrasive contamination tests we used black coral sand as well as platelet desert wind blown sand to evaluate the behavior and would note that the feed and extraction was in some instances better than the control brass cased ammunition."

2. Improved MV - not likely, due to military reliability goals.

True. Chronographed MV is significantly slower than for brass-cased factory ammo.

3. Great accuracy - not likely, 1.5 MOA?

On arfcom, Fortier reported:

"100 yard accuracy.
Average for three 10-shot groups is 2.4 inches.
The tightest five shots of each group averaged 1 inch."

4. Compatible with the all the Grendel chambers, throats, and variants that now exist?

It's designed for compatibility with SAAMI-spec Grendel chambers. It is unreasonable to expect compatibility with non-SAAMI chambers.

5. Great military ground troop round? Maybe. Not long range capable due to low MV & marginal BC (107 match king is approx .400) but better than 5.56.

I don't expect it to be a "great" military load, precisely because of the low MV and BC.

As for long range capability, we'll just have to wait for more user feedback, but Fortier says he "was able to make frequent hits on an Action Target silhouette [at 800 yards] firing prone off the bipod."

6. If ammo from Wolf improves Grendel military adaption options worldwide, what do Horde members stand to gain. Nothing - AA and other potential US Grendel rifle manufactures already cannot support the parts demand from the private sector. So we see additional strain on a manufacturing base that can't support us now with parts and rifles, and this improves with added military contracts?

I can't speak to parts and rifles, but ATK/Federal production of 6.8 SPC ammo for Saudi Arabia has resulted in factory "seconds" being released to the civilian market. So, military adoption of 6.5 Grendel could improve ammo availability.

7. Will other ammo manufactures follow Wolf's lead? Not likely.

I agree.

8. Will Wolf steel case be a great hunting ammo? Perhaps, if it is reliable, keeps its down range energy and retained bullet mass.

It reportedly exhibits early yaw on impact, but it is FMJ, so it won't be legal for many types of game.

9. What about these large primers? Can they really be reliable?

Is there any reason to think they won't?

9. Would Wolf Grendel ammo be great plinking ammo?

Yes, certainly.

10. Would Wolf Grendel steel case be attractive to spec ops?

Very doubtful. But, what does it matter? It's unlikely they even use brass-cased Grendel ammo, so I fail to see the point of your question.

11. Would Wolf steel case run in my FA AR-15? Yes, probably. Great for the zombie invasion, if you just happen to have a Form 4 FA Grendel in the house, with a magazine that holds and functions with more than six of those heavy steel cased rounds, and plenty of zombies in sight...

See Variable's video: http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...psa6be0d9d.mp4 25 rounds, reliable full-auto operation.

And BTW, I'm pretty sure the steel cases weigh significantly less than brass cases.

So help me...

Why the anticipation?

Well, I think the anticipation and excitement is due to the very long wait Horde members have had to endure. Wolf announced the steel-case ammo in January 2008...

[BluntForceTrauma]

Just consider my notes for the sake of discussion.

Hey, SG, no prob, discussion is welcome here. We're 65G shooters because we take in the discussion and think for ourselves, not because everybody's getting on the hot new speshul forces cartridge bandwagon.

1. Cheap steel ammo from Russia, if really available in decent quantities: I am not wanting steel case ammo for my match grade chambers and bolt/barrel extension components. No discussion here, I am not using steel case anything. Damn sure not with problematic lacquer coatings.

Your choice, though steel case under normal use is not going to harm your components. Lacquer coating is not problematic; any probs shooting lacquer were not due to the coating but to the gun not being set up for the unique needs of steel-case, in general.

Your opinion is that you think it will harm your gun. Cool. I don't think it'll harm mine so I have no problem using it.

2. Improved MV - not likely, due to military reliability goals.

Not shooting steel-case cuz of it's sizzling velocity, but because it's cheap.

3. Great accuracy - not likely, 1.5 MOA?

Not shooting steel-case cuz of it's great accuracy, but because it's cheap.

4. Compatible with the all the Grendel chambers, throats, and variants that now exist? Not likely, but if it is - will it be accurate? Is this Grendel SAAMI compliant for case dimensions, AA website doesnt say....

I consider there to be only one 6.5 Grendel chamber, it is officially SAAMIed, and, yes, Bill Alexander designed the chamber to handle steel-case. Wildcat chambers are on their own. The beauty of wildcat chambers is that they can be tailored to specific needs, specific loads. I'm sure an enterprising fellow can design and market the "Steel-case Full-auto Grendel VII Chamber."

5. Great military ground troop round? Maybe. Not long range capable due to low MV & marginal BC (107 match king is approx .400) but better than 5.56.

Not shooting steel-case cuz of its military potential, but because it's cheap. BC of 107 SMK is 0.430, BTW. I'm pretty sure that if the Russians were truly serious about developing the 65G into a military loading, we'd see increased velocities and at least the variety of loadings they provide for their other cartridges. I've always advocated a 65G light load (100?) for ARs and a heavy loading (123?) for DMRs and LMGs.

Having said that, the single most satisfying thing, for me, about owning the 6.5 Grendel is knowing it's the best assault rifle cartridge, bar none and all things considered, yet developed. I greatly enjoy that warm feeling of smug superiority when I consider the brutal elegance of its design. Thanks to my fellow Finn, Janne Pohjoispaa, for recommending the final design specifications and thanks, Bill Alexander, for making it happen!

6. If ammo from Wolf improves Grendel military adaption options worldwide, what do Horde members stand to gain. Nothing - AA and other potential US Grendel rifle manufactures already cannot support the parts demand from the private sector. So we see additional strain on a manufacturing base that can't support us now with parts and rifles, and this improves with added military contracts?

If the U.S. military adopts the 6.5 Grendel or something very similar that echoes its design principles, I will be singularly gratified that our troops are finally well-served by a given piece of equipment. Manufacturing quantities will take care of themselves. If the Russians were smart, they'd dump the obsolete 7.62x39 and chamber the 65G in their AKs, and devote their machinery to making the same billions of 65G they now devote to 7.62x39 and 5.45x39.

7. Will other ammo manufactures follow Wolf's lead? Not likely. Lots of risk and cost, many throat variations, high liability, low volume, and a difficult price point - especially if Wolf can supply enough to meet demand. Hornady already has the accuracy/hunting market at a reasonable price point, they just cant deliver.

Since when has selling a product as fast as you can make it been, really, a bad thing? And I'm still not hung up on the "many throat variations." That's as much a non-factor for the 65G as it is for any other SAAMI cartridge with wildcat competitors.

8. Will Wolf steel case be a great hunting ammo? Perhaps, if it is reliable, keeps its down range energy and retained bullet mass.

Testing by Fortier and Alexander have independently shown it has a very early and damaging yaw cycle, similar to 7N6, and so should do the proper damage to the vitals of deer and hogs without the worry of it "pencilling" straight through.

9. What about these large primers? Can they really be reliable?

Yes. Same primer as used in the AK47's 7.62x39, and you don't usually hear complaints about the reliability of primers in THAT ammo.

9. Would Wolf Grendel ammo be great plinking ammo? Probably, if plinking is what you do with your kids. Maybe its just for fun?

Yes! Yes! Yes! All my shooting is for fun! My deer hunting is fun. My target shooting is fun. My blasting bowling balls is fun. I hope it's not a negative thing that one enjoys the hell out of shooting guns? And, again, it's the cheap price that makes it worth the squeeze.

10. Would Wolf Grendel steel case be attractive to spec ops? Doubt it, now we are talking short range, high energy like 300 AAC, & 6.8 SPC class w/subsonic options, for effective terminations in close quarters. I thought the Grendel's value was in longer range?

Any military that knows what the hell it's doing will be attracted to the 6.5 Grendel, whether in steel-case or brass. If they have specialized needs, then, yes, go with suppressed 9mm or .300 AAC, or develop a subsonic 65G. But for general-purpose, multi-role in ARs, DMRs, and LMGs? Beautiful.

11. Would Wolf steel case run in my FA AR-15? Yes, probably. Great for the zombie invasion, if you just happen to have a Form 4 FA Grendel in the house, with a magazine that holds and functions with more than six of those heavy steel cased rounds, and plenty of zombies in sight...

Quickly aimed semi-auto shots are far more effective than any full-auto spray and pray. You do know that zombies need a well-aimed brain shot to kill 'em, right?

And because Wolf steel-case is relatively cheap, you'll be glad you could afford to stack it high and deep when them zombies come moaning and clawing at your door.

So help me...Why the anticipation?

Hope that helps!

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

From the perspective of this long-time Bullpup'er, I'm delighted the low-cost version of factory-loaded 6.5mm Grendel ammo has finally hit the scene.

And, I dare state that had this competitively-priced steel-case loading been widely available, when the Bullpup Forum Poll Which caliber do you want this [the upcoming Desert Tech MDR Bullpup] in? was begun (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?to...48137#msg48137), the 6.5mm Grendel could well have been the most popular choice: today's shooters demand a low-cost alternative to their favorite cartridge.

[dammitman]

I like the "i shoot it cause its cheap". It is giving me a reason to put together a new cheaper quality build i know i really need! I bet it will get alot of use.

[jluck]

I guess it's like bottled water. It is NOT the cheapest way to get it but certainly convenient way to get it and only cheaper than new factory loaded ammo. It doesn't make me all wet in the nether regions yet, not with the insane shipping costs.

I look forward to other suppliers getting it.

[RangerRick]

Biggest advantage for us it it takes away the argument "the ammo costs a fortune" from the low end market.

Hopefully this creates more sales at the low end of the market and improves the number of Grendels in the wild. To manufacturers of products that have to be caliber specific for the AR like ammo, bolts, barrels, and magazines, the number of potential customers is a key statistic.

It affects the potential volume of sales, which in turn affects how long it will take them to pay for their development, tooling, and marketing costs for a product they are thinking about making.

Bottom line: More guns of a particular caliber in the field, more chance of goodies being offered and lower costs of those goodies.

RR

[LRRPF52]

To date before the steel case hit the market, we had the following factory ammunition price points:

$30-$40 premium hunting ammo per 20
$20-$30 high quality hunting and target ammo
$13-$17 imported brass-cased hunting and target ammo (Serbia)

Now we have $8/box steel case blaster ammo for those who want to build utilitarian carbines. For those Grendel owners who will never shoot it, it's still a major win because it creates supply for the market, and lets AR15 owners know that there is affordable ammunition support for this caliber.

That motivates barrel-makers and builders to offer carbines and uppers chambered in 6.5 Grendel, which creates more demand for ALL Grendel ammo. More production drives competition and supply, which encourages other US-based ammunition manufacturers to start making brass-cased Grendel ammo in the lower price point range. For example, if Winchester or Federal were to introduce a factory load or 2, that would be a big deal.

This arrival of Grendel steel case also coincides within a few months of the ATF's extrajudicial and questionable "ban" on imports of 5.45x39 7N6, which was an economical alternative to 5.56/.223 Rem for many AR15 and AK shooters.

What remains next to see is how barrel-makers respond, primarily CMV barrel makers. We have plenty of 9000-series bolts from reputable sources.

[Smokepole50]

Well I missed the big brown truck today but I should have my 500 rds tomorrow by 11AM EST. Hopefully I will test it out tomorrow as well.

Green Lacquer coating.............from my experience shooting a lot of various Mosin-Nagents, you can have a build up of lacquer in the chamber over time. This could be from a rough chamber, I am not sure, but I have experience what is called in the Mosin world as sticky bolt syndrome. The answer is a polished chamber or a bit of Acetone to clean the chamber once every thousand rounds or so. A lot of the guys that shoot Mosins have used a bit of steel wool wrapped around a chamber brush and soaked with Acetone to clean and polish the chamber. I think some bronse wool threads would probably be a bit easier on the throat should it work its way that far forward while cleaning.

In the generous AK chamber that is often chrome lined and thus somewhat polished it is not much of a problem. I have seen the problem on M39's which might have a somewhat tighter chamber than a standard Mosin-nagent 91/30. Anyway Acetone will fix the problem if it arises, just be sure to oil well afterwords.

[SG4247]

LRRPF52
To date before the steel case hit the market, we had the following factory ammunition price points:

$30-$40 premium hunting ammo per 20
$20-$30 high quality hunting and target ammo
$13-$17 imported brass-cased hunting and target ammo (Serbia)

Now we have $8/box steel case blaster ammo for those who want to build utilitarian carbines. For those Grendel owners who will never shoot it, it's still a major win because it creates supply for the market, and lets AR15 owners know that there is affordable ammunition support for this caliber.

That motivates barrel-makers and builders to offer carbines and uppers chambered in 6.5 Grendel, which creates more demand for ALL Grendel ammo. More production drives competition and supply, which encourages other US-based ammunition manufacturers to start making brass-cased Grendel ammo in the lower price point range. For example, if Winchester or Federal were to introduce a factory load or 2, that would be a big deal.

This arrival of Grendel steel case also coincides within a few months of the ATF's extrajudicial and questionable "ban" on imports of 5.45x39 7N6, which was an economical alternative to 5.56/.223 Rem for many AR15 and AK shooters.

What remains next to see is how barrel-makers respond, primarily CMV barrel makers. We have plenty of 9000-series bolts from reputable sources.

RangerRick
Biggest advantage for us it it takes away the argument "the ammo costs a fortune" from the low end market.

Hopefully this creates more sales at the low end of the market and improves the number of Grendels in the wild. To manufacturers of products that have to be caliber specific for the AR like ammo, bolts, barrels, and magazines, the number of potential customers is a key statistic.

It affects the potential volume of sales, which in turn affects how long it will take them to pay for their development, tooling, and marketing costs for a product they are thinking about making.

Bottom line: More guns of a particular caliber in the field, more chance of goodies being offered and lower costs of those goodies.

RR

I really appreciate the responses guys. Very professional and well thought out.

My thoughts to the above quotes are:

I would agree IF:

1. The US gun industry has the capacity for manufacture of additional Grendel specific parts/ammo.
2. The US gun industry has the demand for additional Grendel specific parts/ammo.
3. They can make a profit on Grendel specific parts/ammo.

So, all the above points have to basically happen simultaneously, in order for a change in the market related to Grendel to happen. We all know they are currently swamped with other popular calibers.

Otherwise, experience and history shows they wont hit a lick.

I hope you guys are correct, in the concept that cheap Russian steel cased ammo will satisfy or support the above conditions and something really positive for the Grendel will result from it.

I think its a really long shot. (No pun intended)

[LRRPF52]

There are millions of people born each year in the US. Millions reach an age where they are ready to start shooting with their parents/family.

Millions more each year preparing to go hunting.

Most will not be looking at .223 Remington as a viable or legal hunting cartridge for deer.

Millions will be buying AR15's more and more, as the default American standard center fire rifle. The 3 main factory loadings for the AR15 are:

.223 Rem
6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC II

Grendel just got an affordable plinking factory load. Questions.

[SG4247]

There are millions of people born each year in the US. Millions reach an age where they are ready to start shooting with their parents/family.

Millions more each year preparing to go hunting.

Most will not be looking at .223 Remington as a viable or legal hunting cartridge for deer.

Millions will be buying AR15's more and more, as the default American standard center fire rifle. The 3 main factory loadings for the AR15 are:

.223 Rem
6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC II

Grendel just got an affordable plinking factory load. Questions.

Yes,

Who manufactures .223 guns and how many a year?
Who manufactures 6.8 rifles and how many a year?
Who manufactures SAAMI Grendel rifled and how many a year?

What rifle will future customers buy based on the above factual data if we had it?

[LRRPF52]

Millions will buy a percentage of all of those. A small percentage of millions is a lot, and can create a lot of demand from ammunition manufacturers.

.223 Rem will not be legal to hunt with in several States, when it comes to medium sized game like deer. Deer hunting is one of the most popular hunting activities, especially in rifle season. More and more hunters each year will have 6.5 Grendel AR15's as their primary long gun, especially since it does so well with light recoil, but retained energy, and ease of hitting where you aim, even for youths.

A lot of the people who would normally be turned off by large caliber rifles will not be. That alone helps with sales of 6.5 Grendel, and AR15's.