Night Optics User Experience Thread...

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  • Double Naught Spy
    Chieftain
    • Sep 2013
    • 2560

    Night Optics User Experience Thread...

    In another section, Drift requested night hunters post on their gear, suggesting that his experience with dealers, ads, and demonstrations has been less than enlightening. http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...mark-Photon-XT

    So I thought I would start here with some overview thoughts and as time permits, ad experiences with my gear. Hopefully, others will add their experiences.

    First, there is night vision and there is thermal vision. Night vision amplifies light whereas thermal "sees" heat energy emitted from a source (such as a hog). With night vision, you have traditional NV and you have digital NV. Traditional NV is light sensitive and cannot be used in daylight without a pin hole lens cover and some companies even suggest that is a bad idea. You have Generations I, II, III and some companies claim a IV, but others refute IV is just a variation of III. Suffice it to say, that anything less than a Gen III scope will require supplement IR illumination at least half the time, if not all the time (Gen I). Even Gen III will require supplemental illumination on the very darkest of nights, heavy cloud cover, etc., but this tend to be more limited.

    Digital night vision allows for use during the day and you won't ruin the unit by using it during the day. While the technology exists for digital night vision to work without supplemental illumination (much like high end Gen III), I have yet to see the technology put into weapon sights. Most of the digital night vision is really comparable to Gen I or low end Gen II scopes. The big benefit of digital is the day use capability without switching rifles or scopes and without ruining the sensor.

    Contrary to popular belief, NV does not overcome camo. A brown deer in brown grass that might be hard to see during the day because it blends so well will also blend very well at night. Dark animals moving in the shadows at night are very tough to see as well. The exception here is that if you are using supplemental illumination and are able to spot eye shine. I see this frequently with deer and rabbits, especially rabbits. I may not see the rabbit...at first, but will see a bright glowing spot that undoubtedly belongs to an animal and it is then for me to try to discern what the animal is.

    Thermal vision sees heat energy radiated from an object. So instead of need light reflected off an object to be seen, it sees what the object radiates. Most of the time, this results in things such as birds and mammals standing with with stark contrast to their surroundings. Aside from cost, there are a couple significant downsides to thermal use. First is that any surface heated to body temperature will radiate heat energy comparable to that of most mammals. So afternoon/evening hunting in the summer can be challenging because a surface glow white will effectively camo a deer that is also glowing with...until that surface cools down a bit.

    The second problem is that while NV is good for navigation (walking around or even driving), thermal can be problematic. First is that it cannot see through glass. So you can't use it to drive around your vehicle like you can NV. Second, when the environment has been the same temp for prolonged periods, EVERYTHING gets to be the same temperature. After days of clouds and rain, the trees, ground, fence posts, wire, blinds, feeders, etc. all get to be the same temp and your field of view is nearly uniformly gray. Warm animals will stand out great, but everything else is more difficult to see.

    As with other optics, magnification and lens size are very salient issues. Generally speaking, the bigger the lens, the better. Magnification will depend on needs, but you don't want high magnification with a small lens, though small magnification with a big lens is fine.

    With NV, the higher the generation, the better the light gathering capability. With thermal, the issues aren't in generations, but in resolution and distances between pixels. The larger the numbers in resolution, the better. The smaller the distances (microns) between pixels, the better.

    Some people will tell you that if you don't use X, then don't waste your money. For example, if you don't buy Gen III, then don't buy anything. That is a bit overstated. The better your gear, the easier it will be able to use effectively, but the greater the expense. I killed a bunch of hogs with a Gen I NV scope and a whole lot more with a digital NV scope. So if you don't have a big budget or don't have a big need does not mean you should avoid buying night gear.

    People often ask how far you can see with Gen I, II, III, digital, or thermal gear and that is a bit of a loaded question. For NV, that is often determined by the amount of ambient light, capability of the illuminator, and how well the animal stands out from its surroundings. You can spot a black hog in a cut, light tan, hay field much further and easier than you can spot a tan hog in the same field.

    With a good illuminator, you can get out to 150 and maybe even 200 yards with Gen I and with digital night vision. Gen II will take you further if the illuminator you are using has the additional reach. Gen III will take you out several hundred yards on a good night or when using a laser illuminator and then the issue may be one of not enough magnification to shoot more so than ability to see.

    For thermal vision, the general rule of thumb is a resolution of no less than 320x240, but some people do use the 160x120 resolution, but it can be very problematic due to pixelation of the image, even at cloth range. Micron distances are now usually in the teens and some are even single digit. Thermal vision where the micron distance is over 25 (I have seen scopes with 40) will result in a distinct fuzziness to the image.

    Out of time for now. When I next post, I will add in my experiences with various scopes and ask others to include theirs as well.
    Kill a hog. Save the planet.
    My videos - https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
  • Drift
    Warrior
    • Nov 2014
    • 509

    #2
    Again, thank you. I was leaning toward some digital gear, now not so much.

    Comment

    • montana
      Chieftain
      • Jun 2011
      • 3209

      #3
      Great post, thank you for your input. Nothing beats hands on experience.

      Comment

      • jawbone
        Warrior
        • Jan 2012
        • 328

        #4
        a lot of effort and expertise went into that excellent and helpful post, 00Spy. many thanks, Sir.

        Comment

        • am4966
          Chieftain
          • Jul 2014
          • 1036

          #5
          They scope 00Spy used to use seems like a good option to start off with. The Pulsar N750 pluses add a 200.00 IR Torch or so and you'll be good. Now maybe there is a better option to start off with in the same price range. If I had the $$$ and I was going to get something I'd probably go with a ATN Thor 336, IR Hunter MK II or IR Hunter. This is just from my reading, I have never used anything. So I really appreciate any info that is given and recommendations.
          12.5" SBR Grendel - Need Barrel
          Surge - Rugged Suppressor
          Been a fan of the Grendel from the very beginning and haven't second guessed that choice one time.

          Aim small, miss small!

          Comment

          • cory
            Chieftain
            • Jun 2012
            • 2985

            #6
            Thanks for the posting the valuable information, man!
            "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

            Comment

            • usar_ds
              Bloodstained
              • Aug 2014
              • 48

              #7
              just a thought, but i recently got an atn 5x night spirit gen 2 from apex. really good option.

              i also have a luna optics gen1 (russian) 4x spotting scope, it has been usable for the most part (150yrd clear night, 40-50 yrd under heavy leaf canopy at night, or other pitch dark conditions) the ir on it is pretty powerful by the way.

              the atn gen 2 just blows it away however (perfect clarity even in windowless room at night, 200+ yrds even under heavy leaf canopy at night) only issue is the ir ilum sucks (barely visible, totally worthless)

              just chiming in about it now because i have yet to get around to getting a weapon mount for it, i also want to get atn's ir booster for it, and an alternate 1x objective and helmet mount. so no live fire tests with it as of yet.

              it looks like apex is out of the night spirits, but they still have atn ps14 gen cgt (same as gen 2), important though its not a pvs14, going for around $700. mounted behind a reflex sight this would be the way i would go over another gen1 unit.

              just my opinion.

              Comment

              • Drift
                Warrior
                • Nov 2014
                • 509

                #8
                One of my Grendel huntlng buddies jumped the gun and ordered a night sight from optics planet tonight. Probably try it out in a couple of weeks. I'm going to wait till you tell us about clipping on monoculars behind my best day scope.

                Comment

                • customcutter
                  Warrior
                  • Dec 2014
                  • 452

                  #9
                  I guess I need to make a confession. I started watching 00spy video's last year, and I'm now an addict. I kept putting off buying anything because I didn't know that much about them. It all seemed rather confusing. A few weeks ago Drift said that he thought we might be able to do some night hunting for pigs or yotes, so I couldn't resist any longer. I had been able to use the excuse that I didn't have any property to use NV on so no use buying it.

                  I started looking at possibly making so NV equipment (look up DIY night vision on utube), and it seemed do-able, and reasonable pricewise. But, it was all pretty clumsy as far as mounting, wires every where, etc. So time for more research. I'd love to have thermal, and might sell a few organs one day to get it (there's a thread on Texas Hunting Forum about the addiction). Sorry if other forum names are a no-no, please delete.

                  I finally started looking at the ATN X-sight. Mainly it was in the price range and seemed to offer some plus's. I did a lot of reseaching reviews on it but didn't find the earlier mentioned forum until after ordering. I learned there that the 5X18 that I ordered is probably closer to 7X40 with digital zoom, but it gets grainy past 18-20 so therefore the rating. I may send it back for the 3X12 as I like a wider field of view, if close to things, or charging boars like 00spy's encounter.

                  Yes the X-sights are buggy and there have been a ton of firmware updates. Most of the "important" issues have been resolved. I'm not interested in wifi, geo-tagging, etc. I do hope that they work on the shot solutions (BDC computing) and maybe some better reticles in the future upgrades. I've heard they eat batteries like crazy, but there is a "fix" where people are using portable usb chargers to power the units.

                  00spy, thanks for all the vids and info you share here. All my previous post count was deleted, and I've been away with health and business issues. Hope to have and update on the ATN X sight soon.

                  CC

                  Comment

                  • Drift
                    Warrior
                    • Nov 2014
                    • 509

                    #10
                    As I understand what questions to ask, I'm changing my mind a couple of times a week about what I want to buy. Right now I've got a good rifle and a good day/twilight scope. (Minox ZEi 2x10x50 with #4 German reticle(small lit red dot in center)) My plan right now is to buy a PVS14 to use as a hand scope when afoot or in the stand, then clipping it (somehow) behind the Minox to take the shot. Advantages if I can get this to work out are (1) its cheaper then a dedicated night scope+monocular(2) its less stuff to carry in my pack (3) During deer season I'm in my stand @ least an hr before dawn anyway and it would be nice to look around.

                    Comment

                    • usar_ds
                      Bloodstained
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 48

                      #11
                      although you can put a nv device behind a magnified day scope and it will remain in focus (surprisingly). i would really recommend going with a parallax free reflex sight instead for use with nv. the magnified scope will really decrease the clarity and brightness of the nv. magnified scopes dont gather as much light as the nv device would normally so put a monocular behind it and everything looks much darker. additionally clarity seems to decrease as well and the image looks much more "grainy".

                      full disclosure:
                      i had only used a reflex sight with nv device up till now, i didnt think it would work as they are two magnified optics not designed to work together

                      but all this talk about use with magnified optics and i had to give it a try.

                      i just went outside with both my nv devices and several different scopes, ior 3x, bushnell elite tact 3.5-21x, cheap millet 4-16x, and a cheap simmons 3-9x.

                      and it works, sort of... focus is ok but with all combinations of nv devices and scopes images got much darker so viewing range actually decreased, and image quality went right out the window.

                      Comment

                      • customcutter
                        Warrior
                        • Dec 2014
                        • 452

                        #12
                        Thanks for posting the info in this thread. I know I would have benefited from it.

                        One thing to remember about NV other than thermal. From what I've been able to find doing my research the past week, is that the IR illuminator is just as important as the NV device. Probably my first upgrades will be a better illuminator, and a rechargable power source for the ATN x-sight.

                        Comment

                        • Drift
                          Warrior
                          • Nov 2014
                          • 509

                          #13
                          Any thoughts on the Surefire M952v light?

                          Comment

                          • customcutter
                            Warrior
                            • Dec 2014
                            • 452

                            #14
                            The one on the unit is supposedly good for 100-150yds. I'm going to assume that is probably in an open field, with at least a half moon, and no over cast. I'm currently looking at some T38 or T50 units with low, med, high settings, and rechargeables. Seeing some on fleabay from China for $60-80, but don't know how the switches, IR leds, etc hold up, some are being shown with 2 year warranties IIRC. Haven't started looking for reviews as they are probably pretty new on the market. I've looked for IR led replacements, to see if it would be possible to build one, but haven't found the correct components. I've also seen references to folks building their own IR lasers, so maybe I'll look in that direction also.

                            Comment

                            • cory
                              Chieftain
                              • Jun 2012
                              • 2985

                              #15
                              Any experience using the WML with IR?
                              "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

                              Comment

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