Dutch SF to buy .300 BLK carbines

[stanc]

http://www.janes.com/article/52727/dutch-special-forces-to-buy-carbines-chambered-in-300-blk

[am4966]

Hmm, why?

[LRRPF52]

Another tool, especially for very short duration mission profiles where low signature is important.

Just from a training standpoint, subsonic suppressed offers a lot of benefits for shooting indoors when doing your CQB work, Overpressure in the house is horrendous on the inner ear, even when wearing muffs, because of mastoid process resonance.

Some guys get inner ear problems, especially if they work with demo a lot in the house for explosive breaching, combined with all the supersonic overpressure from carbines indoors. It can take its toll bigtime. I have a buddy who was an SF Engineer Sergeant and Instructor at SF's CQB course at Bragg, who got Menier's disease. He's pretty much disabled for life and started having a lot of issues before he retired.

[am4966]

Another tool, especially for very short duration mission profiles where low signature is important.

Just from a training standpoint, subsonic suppressed offers a lot of benefits for shooting indoors when doing your CQB work, Overpressure in the house is horrendous on the inner ear, even when wearing muffs, because of mastoid process resonance.

Some guys get inner ear problems, especially if they work with demo a lot in the house for explosive breaching, combined with all the supersonic overpressure from carbines indoors. It can take its toll bigtime. I have a buddy who was an SF Engineer Sergeant and Instructor at SF's CQB course at Bragg, who got Menier's disease. He's pretty much disabled for life and started having a lot of issues before he retired.

I understand it's another tool and about the subs being used suppressed. But they are only getting 244,000 sub ammo compared to over a million ball ammo. So that's where I get the why, I knitter they can buy as they go, but I'd think they would have gotten more sub ami since that's where the 300 shines. So I'll refer to your opinion on this with your knowledge, since I respect you and what you say.

In retrospect the 244,000 rnds of subs is a pretty fair amount lol

[LRRPF52]

Just initial ammo purchases. They'll be buying more as noted in the article. Also keep in mind that they aren't the only SOF unit using 300 BLK, they just seem to be the only one I know of that has advertised it, or slipped and let their purchasing details be made public.

Russians have been using 9x39 for decades now in the VAL.

[sneaky one]

Klem, could you reiterate , and ?? the last paragraph for all?

So, slow speed is worse than High speed on flesh, ? That's what I thought when I went to higher speed GMX pills.
Actually the last sentence. No reason--- to go 300blk

What was the true meaning there?

Geez, nobody wants the epilepsy tag.

I'm not pee ing on any caliber, just would like all things clearly defined for all. Thanks man.

[VASCAR2]

Klem:

Just curious if you know what kind of 5.56 projectile was used by rescuers in Sydney. My Police Dept. was very concerned about fratricide and issued a 55 grain JSP Winchester. The first load was just a standard hunting bullet (cup & core) then later we were issued Federal 55 grain JSP TRU bonded core. We had several M-16A-1's in the field so the decision was made to issue 55 grain bullets. Commercial 55 grain FMJ or M-193 was used for most training. All the officers carried some FMJ which would have been used in the event our limited supply of JSP was used. Over concerns dealing with active shooters especially in schools my Department pulled all our "0" buckshot from the street and we were only to use issued Foster 12 gauge Slugs. The slugs purchased over the last few years were usually reduced recoil Federal or Winchester 12 gauge slugs.

My Department was one of the first agencies to adopt the 9 MM model 39 which were initially loaded with 123 grain FMJ. In an effort to reduce over penetration the Department tried some 100 grain FMJ. This didn't prove to be any better and since the politicians wouldn't approve hollow points the Troops were issued a Federal 95 grain flat nose JSP at 1300 FPS. This load was better but had inconsistent performance. In the early 80's my agency adopted the +P+ 115 grain JHP which is a lower penetrating round. This JHP round proved very effective on the streets and was used till the Department transitioned to 40 S&W cartridge.

[biodsl]

Sounds like VASCAR2 and klem both remember the bad-old-days of the 9mm. The late 60's and 70's are replete with stories of how ineffective the round was as a fight-stopper with FMJ ammo. I agree with klem that a .30 caliber FMJ at subsonic velocities would likely be just as ineffective. However, with specialty ammunition, .300 BO subsonic rounds can perform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDym4GXrPRw

Remove the logistics of a NATO battlefield and I can understand this adoption. Ball ammo for training, supersonic for war engagements, subsonic specialty ammo for counter-terrorist and hostage rescue. You have one weapons system and one manual of arms that can cover a variety of tactical needs. Same magazines, same bolts. And your 5.56 weapon is identical except for caliber.

[stanc]

Just curious if you know what kind of 5.56 projectile was used by rescuers in Sydney. My Police Dept. was very concerned about fratricide and issued a 55 grain JSP Winchester.

My Department was one of the first agencies to adopt the 9 MM model 39 which were initially loaded with 123 grain FMJ. In an effort to reduce over penetration the Department tried some 100 grain FMJ.

I've always been amused by this concern with overpenetration and collateral damage, especially when it comes to handguns.

According to all of the statistical data I've seen, the majority of handgun rounds fired by police completely miss the intended target. Those misses are traveling at full velocity, rendering them far more hazardous to bystanders than rounds that pass through the body.

Note that the Sydney hostage was apparently killed by a miss, not an overpenetrating bullet.

[VASCAR2]

I've always been amused by this concern with overpenetration and collateral damage, especially when it comes to handguns.

According to all of the statistical data I've seen, the majority of handgun rounds fired by police completely miss the intended target. Those misses are traveling at full velocity, rendering them far more hazardous to bystanders than rounds that pass through the body.

Note that the Sydney hostage was apparently killed by a miss, not an overpenetrating bullet.

Stan, I agree but a lot of what happened in my agency was driven by Politics and people who really didn't have a clue. The people who were the most knowledgeable were rarely listened to let alone have the the influence to make the best decisions.

In the 60's, 70's and early 80's there were a lot of really sharp ex military with true leadership qualities plus real experts. Unfortunately that core group of people are long gone and being political connected and politically correct is what is in vogue today.

[VASCAR2]

Thanks Klem, I was curious if it was fragments or a solid projectile which struck the victim. It is very bad when a major artery is it. Still shows how much damage can be done by shrapnel and bullet fragments on soft tissue even without a pressure wave from explosion.