Bubba's Challenge

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  • LR1955
    Super Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 3355

    Bubba's Challenge

    Originally posted by jiml View Post
    I like wringing all I can out of a rifle. I'm too old and gone to compete much except with myself and what I can afford. Its just a hobby I enjoy and I don't have to beat my chest and blow anymore. I don't give a crap about being the biggest, baddest, or best. I just want to enjoy it. I guess the old slam it in there and crank it off is ok but I've seen folks blow there butts off so I like to see numbers that helps prevent that. I get more careful as I get older. I was super smart and bulletproof once myself but I don't heal like I used too so I take a little more care. I read on this forum just lately about someone blowing his gun up and I don't have any desire to be the next. Technocrat isn't the worst thing I've been called. So it's a free country(barely) so rave on just don't stand by me when you set it off if you are just going guess on what is really going on in the chamber. Best 'o luck to you Bubba
    Guys / Jim:

    I decided to move this to a new thread.

    I poke fun at the technical stuff most of the time because I have walked down that path in High Power. I spent my time measuring cartridge run out, case length, trimming when it wasn't needed, turning necks (inside and outside) weighing brass, bullet measuring. The result was no better scores because my time was taken up measuring and cutting rather than practicing.

    So, I have been there and done that. I realize the benefit of some tools and that some (like the Stony Point Guage) I will only need one time per ogive type. So it is a waste of my money.

    I also have gotten a feel for when a specific tool (like a cartridge run out tool) really may make a difference -- between an X and a 10 or a 10 and a 9, at 1000 yards. It took longer for me to realize I had to be a good enough shot to realize this benefit.

    I also realize that dies these days are so well made that you don't really have problems with run out anymore. Or uniformity of sizing brass. Unless you go cheap.

    I have five different reloading presses. The best for rifle is a Co Ax. Yes, I am that much a technocrat to believe a floating die will give more uniformity in sizing and seating.

    So, I poke fun at technocrats because I have been there and realize now that all those gimmicks did not make me a better marksman. They sucked up my time.

    With that said I have a challenge to anyone here.

    Bubba here challenges anyone on this forum to find fault with any reloading advice he has given anyone in any thread.

    Bubba only asks that the person responding does not extend something to the point of absurdity. For example, you can bump a shoulder too much which results in insufficient headspace on the brass. This mostly results in headspace separation but I am sure that one can extend it to the point where they can claim the pressures will blow up a rifle. The problem is that if one bumps the shoulder that much, it won't chamber.

    So that is my challenge to anyone here. If I have been wrong or given dangerous advice, link it and we can go from t here.

    OK guys! Off to the races!

    LR 'Bubba' 55
    Last edited by LR1955; 07-19-2015, 03:40 PM.
  • wfa17332
    Bloodstained
    • May 2015
    • 44

    #2
    I couldn't figure out to quote from one thread to another, so here's a "cut and paste".

    On 09-13-2014 you said:
    "See if the change in velocity between 28 and 28 1/2 is over 30 fps. If it is near 30 fps and your SD's are under 10 fps, with no extremely high velocities from your sample, then your load is probably as efficient as you can get. When increases in velocity with 1/2 grain increases in powder (for the Grendel) are under about 30 fps, most likely you are pushing pressures without getting any practical benefit in terms of external and terminal ballistics."

    I agree that a decrease in the velocity change is an indication that you've likely reached, or exceeded, the practical maximum for your specific combination, but I disagree that a smaller than average change in velocity for each increment of powder also indicates more pressure. It's my understanding that pressure/velocity are very much related, and that the decreased change in velocity is a clear warning sign that pressure spikes are in your future. What you said isn't "wrong", I just think you didn't go far enough.

    Ok, maybe it's a "nit", but I just picked it!

    Comment

    • LR1955
      Super Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 3355

      #3
      Originally posted by wfa17332 View Post
      I couldn't figure out to quote from one thread to another, so here's a "cut and paste".

      On 09-13-2014 you said:
      "See if the change in velocity between 28 and 28 1/2 is over 30 fps. If it is near 30 fps and your SD's are under 10 fps, with no extremely high velocities from your sample, then your load is probably as efficient as you can get. When increases in velocity with 1/2 grain increases in powder (for the Grendel) are under about 30 fps, most likely you are pushing pressures without getting any practical benefit in terms of external and terminal ballistics."

      I agree that a decrease in the velocity change is an indication that you've likely reached, or exceeded, the practical maximum for your specific combination, but I disagree that a smaller than average change in velocity for each increment of powder also indicates more pressure. It's my understanding that pressure/velocity are very much related, and that the decreased change in velocity is a clear warning sign that pressure spikes are in your future. What you said isn't "wrong", I just think you didn't go far enough.

      Ok, maybe it's a "nit", but I just picked it!
      wfa:

      That sounds more like something LRRP52 would say although I would agree. I can't recall giving a 30 fps change as a defining point.

      I have not seen average changes in velocity given half grain changes in powder with the Grendel. I have see huge changes at the low end of the charge scale which taper off as you get towards the limits.

      This wasn't a dangerous statement. In fact, if anything it is a cautionary statement which I would agree with. It is telling the guys who are new to the game that you better watch it when you start hitting the max charges because you are now getting much higher pressures without much gain in speed.

      Sorry, but to win my prize, what ever I said has to be dangerous.

      Oh yes, I forgot to add to my post the following.

      I have also gone through the annealing of brass, the inside and outside flash hole reaming, primer pocket uniforming, and even have trimmed down the rim thickness of cartridges in that quest to get higher scores.

      When I realized all this did was waste my time, I started focusing on my training. And I got better, and better. Never really a threat to any of the real fanatics but I would challenge them periodically. It was then I realized that the technical notion that it is easier to buy a point than to train to get that point came true. I slowly moved from mediocre components and equipment to very good components and equipment.

      Lapua brass does not need anything but removing the burrs on the inside of the neck when new and a trim once during its life. It does not need weighing, annealing, pocket uniforming, etc. Redding Bench Rest or Competition Dies with the right size neck bushings mean you get the best performance and life from your brass. A press with no run out of the ram means the brass goes into and comes out of the dies perfectly, meaning you don't get problems with cartridge run out. Bullets that are designed specifically for your purpose, powder and charge that maximizes performance, hand priming to feel the primer seat, good primers etc. The best sights possible, best barrels, triggers. Stocks that I could fit to my body type.

      Guess what? My ammo was pretty damn good without having to spend hours on the brass or being bored to death measuring things. I finally trusted my equipment and ammo. Once I trusted my equipment and ammo, I could really focus on performance.

      So, dig deeper and maybe you can win my prize!

      LR 'Bubba' 55

      Comment

      • wfa17332
        Bloodstained
        • May 2015
        • 44

        #4
        Sorry about the incorrect attribution. I agree with everything you stated in the "challenge" post, and I have no desire to win anything. I, too, like to stay far away from any non-linear (or close to it) burning rate issues and view decreased "delta" as an indication that things could be about to become very non-linear.

        As for brass... I agree with that too.

        Walt

        Comment

        • jiml
          Bloodstained
          • Jun 2015
          • 29

          #5
          Bubba
          I am impressed with your answer. I went through all that stuff on bolt guns too---I just never got over it. I have visited other rifle forums and any disagreement on anything anyone said and the cursing and name calling commenced. I joined this forum because I didn't see any of that. (That and I love the Grendel) I thought that was where we were headed on the technocrat thing and I took it a little too seriously. I would like to offer my most humble apology for my comments on the other thread. Dad used to say to err is human but to know it and still stand by it is where stupid begins.

          Comment

          • LR1955
            Super Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 3355

            #6
            Originally posted by jiml View Post
            Bubba
            I am impressed with your answer. I went through all that stuff on bolt guns too---I just never got over it. I have visited other rifle forums and any disagreement on anything anyone said and the cursing and name calling commenced. I joined this forum because I didn't see any of that. (That and I love the Grendel) I thought that was where we were headed on the technocrat thing and I took it a little too seriously. I would like to offer my most humble apology for my comments on the other thread. Dad used to say to err is human but to know it and still stand by it is where stupid begins.
            Jim:

            We don't take well to folks cursing or calling each other names here.

            Sure, I was considering banning you for a period of time but figured you were new here so used another approach which was probably better in this situation.

            Apologies humbly accepted!

            0515 already and need to do PT.

            LR55

            Comment

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