CLOSED Faxon 16" 6.5 Grendel Group Buy A

[BluntForceTrauma]

Gentlemen, Barbarians, and Vile Members of the Unwashed Horde: Many of you will remember we used to sell barrels here as a forum fundraiser. That time has come again.

=======================
SPECIFICATION UPDATE MUST READ

It is covered later in this thread, but please note that the rifling specification has changed. The 3R minimal rifling mentioned below has been changed to a standard 5R rifling profile.

=======================

This group buy is for 16" mid-length AR15-style 6.5 Grendel Faxon Firearms button-rifled barrels, which will use what we shall call KNG rifling (Kinder 'N' Gentler rifling). There will be three lands, and each land will be 0.003" high, rather than the traditional 0.004". Since the 6.5 Grendel is a relatively mild cartridge, this rifling will minimize deformation of bullet jackets in our quest for accuracy from a value-priced barrel. It may also provide an interesting dynamic for handloaders to experiment with.

I've made arrangements with Nathan Schueth, Director of Operations, Sales, and Marketing for Faxon Firearms, and they are ready to produce a run of 6.5 Grendel barrels for us when we're ready with a minimum order of 50 in one barrel length and style.

FEATURES:

• Barrel length: 16"
• Barrel profile: Medium (see attached rough drawing)
• Mid-length gas system
• Gas-block diameter: 0.750"
• Gas-port diameter: 0.078"
• Muzzle threads: 5/8 x 24
• 11-degree target crown
• Barrel steel: 4150 CMV
• Inside finish: QPQ nitride
• Outside finish: QPQ nitride
• 6.5 Grendel, SAAMI chamber, headspaced for 0.136" boltface depth
• 3-groove, button-rifled
• Rifling twist: 1:8
• Groove diameter: 0.264"
• Bore diameter: 0.258"
• M4-style barrel extension
• Magnetic particle inspected
• Weight: Approximately 1.75 lbs (final weight To Be Determined)

PAYMENT: Barrel cost is $195 each and shipping within the lower 48 states is a flat fee of $10 for a total cost of $205 (AK and HI will be charged actual shipping). Payment is by cashier's or personal check and has two options: Option A is to pay the full $205 in one payment. Option B is to pay in two installments: Installment (A) for $85 reserves your barrel and is a downpayment to Faxon to begin manufacture. Installment (B) for $120 completes the transaction and receipt of this payment releases your barrel for shipment to you.

DOWNPAYMENT REFUND: The downpayment Installment (A) $85 is only refundable up to the date this group buy meets the minimum requirement for 50 orders and this downpayment is forwarded to Faxon to begin manufacture. AFTER the downpayment is paid to Faxon, the $85 Installment (A) is NON-REFUNDABLE. If you change your mind after that point and want to recoup your $85, you will need to sell your place in line to someone else. For downpayment refund purposes, payments in full will be treated as if they were the two installments.

ALL SALES FINAL: Due to the custom nature of this project, ALL SALES ARE FINAL. Installment (A) $85 is non-refundable AFTER it is forwarded to Faxon and Installment (B) $130 is a non-refundable final payment. Faxon guarantees their barrels will be manufactured to the specifications we call out and that the bore will be within two ten-thousandths of an inch (0.0002") cylindricity down its entire length. If a barrel is not to specification, Faxon pays for the return and replacement of the barrel. As a Gentlemen's Agreement, please understand the stipulations of this group buy and decline participation if our DOWNPAYMENT REFUND policy and ALL SALES FINAL policy is unacceptable to you.

SCHEDULE: I've invited Nathan Schueth of Faxon Firearms to join the forum and participate in this thread to answer any questions from his perspective. Nathan guessimates an 8- to 12-week time frame to make the custom tooling, and then after that a 4- to 6-week time frame to machine the barrels.

ORDERING: To get started, download and print out the attached order form, fill it out, and mail it with your check or money order to my address provided on the order form. Any personal questions please direct to my email (please, not PM here because it fills up too fast). Any public questions helpful to the group will be gathered to the FAXON 50 FAQ in this thread.

That about cover everything? OK, let's do this! The sooner we get 50 the sooner we're shooting a new 6.5 Grendel barrel!

[BluntForceTrauma]

6.5 Grendel Faxon 50 FAQ

TALLY: 11 of 50 as of 2016-02-25. (This is strictly a count of payments received.)

QUESTION 1: Looking at the PDF of the barrel drawing, why is the thick 0.975 section around the chamber extended longer than usual?

ANSWER 1: The thinking behind this design feature recognizes that about 90% of peak chamber pressures are experienced within the first 2 or 3 inches of bullet travel.

So, first, as a safety feature, there is more "meat" in this critical peak-pressure area without adding unnecessary weight along the rest of the barrel. You've seen photos of barrels that split under the hand guards? The split starts at approximately the region in question. So having this extended thicker section puts a rupture — God forbid! — just that much farther from your face.

Second, it is an accuracy feature. Thick, "bull" barrels are more accurate because they're stiffer. And shorter barrels are more accurate because they're stiffer. So the extended thicker section of this barrel profile serves both purposes. To an overall lighter profile it adds a thicker, stiffening section of "bull" barrel, and, in effect, takes a 16" barrel and almost gives it the stiffness of a 12" barrel. Nothing earthshaking, but every little bit helps.

Third, by thickening the barrel only where necessary, it keeps the overall weight down, as well as keeping the heavier section closer to the weapon's center of balance, allowing the weapon to "feel" lighter than it is, as opposed to a "muzzle heavy" feel.

Just a couple more notes on this barrel's profile design: Note the minimal gas-block shoulder ramp. Weight is saved by having, instead of a large ramped section leading to the gas-block shoulder, a small support radius only as large as necessary. At the muzzle, a smooth ramp leads to the muzzle device shoulder to increase the diameter to better mate with the larger crush washers used for 5/8x24 threads (BTW, it is said Yankee Hill Machine crush washers are the best, being smaller than competitors and also actually easier to crush).

QUESTION 2: Why 3 grooves, as opposed to 4, 5, or 6 (the SAAMI standard)?

ANSWER 2: Barrel makers agree the number of grooves, in and of itself, affects neither barrel life nor accuracy. They simply offer whatever number of grooves the buyer believes is his lucky number! Lilja, for example, likes 3-groove. So does Pac-Nor. Black Hole dropped their 5-groove and now only offers 3. The rifle barrel FAQ at Accurate Shooter notes: "Famed gunsmith and wildcatter P. O. Ackley believed that, all things considered, a properly-made 3-groove barrel is optimal for most common calibers. Ackley believed 3-groove profiles can deliver higher velocities with less fouling and no significant reduction in accuracy."

There was a bit of research by Dr. F. W. Mann a century ago that showed tiny burrs left by the rifling on a bullet's tail could be "caught" by the 10,000 fps stream of hot gas just escaping the muzzle, imparting a slight destabilization to the bullet. Fewer lands offers fewer points of bullet deformation and the potential for fewer burrs. Again, every little bit helps.

Since more grooves are simply unnecessary to impart the stabilizing spin to a bullet, why be redundant? I think the main reason 6 grooves is used at all is because they were traditionally cheaper to make. The more grooves the less metal to be removed and thus quicker and cheaper. Modern button rifling negates that concern, but, as we know, traditions die hard. Also, 3 grooves is a minimalist number of grooves that still maintains the offset principle made popular by 5R rifling, in which no land is opposite another. Further, 3 grooves reduces the amount of engraving force and friction between bullet and bore, which might offer interesting possibilities to the handloader.

And, finally, in a video interview at SHOT Show, John Krieger sums up my thoughts, "I've always felt that a 3-groove barrel had some advantages. It seems to me that a 3R barrel would be almost the ideal situation."

So, as far as I'm concerned, 3 is the magic number — a sort of holy trinity of barrel grooves, if you will.

[RogueNathan]

A pleasure to be here. Let me know if you guys have any questions. We encourage you to ask here in the thread so all can see the Q's & A's.

[am4966]

Is it possible to get a pic of a similar barrel? I've seen your barrels and think highly of them. But others might not of, plus what kind of accuracy does most get with a Faxon Barrel?

[BluntForceTrauma]

AM, here's an example of a Faxon 7.62x39 10.5 SBR barrel. While the dimensions of the 6.5 Grendel barrel are different (see the attached barrel profile drawing in Post #1), it shows the approximate color and sheen of the barrel after QPQ treatment.

[koden]

I have a Faxon 16" QPQ in 5.56 and it is a great barrel. If these were 20-24" I would be very interested.

[RogueNathan]

Is it possible to get a pic of a similar barrel? I've seen your barrels and think highly of them. But others might not of, plus what kind of accuracy does most get with a Faxon Barrel?

We would encourage you to seek out accuracy reports on our other barrels. We formally do not guarantee accuracy, just that the barrel is machined correctly and too print. There simply is too many things outside of our control to "guarantee" anything (like optics, trigger, receiver, shooter skill, etc.)

There are many out there that are pleased with the results and many more OEMs that use our barrels in their firearms.

[biodsl]

Is it possible to get a pic of a similar barrel?

I looked around at the Faxon 5.56 barrels and found this. Seems like the profile in the pdf http://faxonfirearms.com/14-5-medium...ngth-4150-qpq/

[Drillboss]

I've got to ask, BFT. Do you feel good about this barrel and do you think that those of us that are familiar with the Grendel be happy with the result?

I've got a 20" Shilen on the Grendel I have, but I wouldn't mind having a lighter hunting set up, assuming it shoots reasonably similar. The pricing is certainly attractive, but I want to be happy with the results.

Thanks for setting this up.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Hey, Drillboss, I've got 100% confidence in the barrel specs. They are my own dream specs for this barrel in the 65G, the result of countless hours of intense research! In later posts in this thread I'll get into the thinking behind some design features.

I do not own, nor have I shot, a Faxon barrel. It is their reputation that precedes them. (Neither have I owned or shot a Bartlein or Krieger, but if I say their reputation precedes them, I'm sure people believe me!). I have been observing Mr. Schueth very carefully in his posts on the various forums for quite a few months now and have been uniformly impressed with his professionalism, commitment to quality and customer service, and his general cheerful disposition. He's been very responsive to my emails (geez, dude, it's the middle of the evening, go home and watch TV!). I don't see reps for, oh, E. R. Shaw involved in the AR community like this; Faxon wants our business and they want to make us happy.

I like that they've had the balls to show some innovation in a competitive marketplace with their ARAK project. Not easy to undertake engineering a gun up from the drawing board. We here in the Grendel community pride ourselves in thinking outside the box, in not just doing something "cuz that's how it's always been done," but in venturing into new frontiers. So I think Faxon is a good match for us.

As far as your comparison with Shilen, I can't honestly say I expect a $205 barrel to beat a $390 Shilen (less the bolt), but I think barrels like Black Hole Weaponry's have shown us that a $275 barrel (less the bolt, and with a bit of poly rifling innovation, to boot) can shoot very well for the money. Speaking of Black Hole's reputation for accuracy, I think they've set the bar quite high for this price point, but Faxon knows engineering and machining and I know they're up to the challenge!

So I've got 100% confidence that Faxon will make us a great barrel for the money, and should a barrel slip by quality control on their end (as noted above in the fine print) they will make it right. Buy with confidence.

Plus, that satin black QPQ finish looks damn slick!

[BluntForceTrauma]

I have a Faxon 16" QPQ in 5.56 and it is a great barrel. If these were 20-24" I would be very interested.

Koden, we're looking forward to a very long and mutually beneficial relationship with Faxon Firearms, so who knows what the future may bring.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Mailed in your order yet for a 16"? Handiest legal size with interchangeable muzzle devices, you know!

[koden]

Koden, we're looking forward to a very long and mutually beneficial relationship with Faxon Firearms, so who knows what the future may bring.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Mailed in your order yet for a 16"? Handiest legal size with interchangeable muzzle devices, you know!

I really want to get a Faxon Grendel barrel but I really have no use for a 16" Grendel. I don't hunt and my 16" Faxon 5.56 or my 18" John Benjamin 264lbc meet my needs for the local Practical Rifle meets I want to start participating in. I will be building a 24" Grendel upper to play with and shoot side by side with my LR-308. It will be fun to compare (in person, not reading the Internets) the new high BC 6.5 bullets out of the Grendel to the new high BC bullets for the 308.

Again, I really like the Faxon 5.56 barrel I have. Being that it is my short range gun and has a red dot on it I don't have any precision groups to report. Up to this point I just picked a safe load with 8208 and 55g bullets and it shoots good. It doesn't seem picky about ammo.

If Faxon offers a 24" Grendel in the near future I'll pick one up. Otherwise I will have J.B. make me another tube.

[Drillboss]

BFT, that's the kind of answer I was looking for. You know a lot more about barrel design than I do. I know which end the bullets go in and how to make them go bang. The primary comparison I was making to the Shilen is that it weighs about 4 lbs and make the gun a bit of a heavy pig. For a light hunting rifle, I'd be happy with something close to 1 MOA accuracy.

Sign me up.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Sounds good, DB!

And just so any newbies reading this are clear, in this group buy the way you get signed up is to print out the order form, fill it out, and mail your payment. When your deposit hits my mailbox, THEN you're officially signed up.

I will then PM or email you with a confirmation of receipt.

[Drillboss]

I knew that. Trying to help get the ball rolling.