Who uses Run and Guns as training?

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  • gmar
    Bloodstained
    • Aug 2015
    • 46

    Who uses Run and Guns as training?

    I'm in Oklahoma and we have at least three of these each year and it's a great opportunity to test you and your equipment. I've done four of these now and I'm still learning wha equipment works the best for me. For example, I've switched from an Acog to a 1-4x variable scope with crosshairs and changed from a tactical vest to a battle belt.

    However, most importantly it's taught me how out of shape I am and how hard it is to shoot when your heart rate is elevated.

    How popular are events like these in your state and have you done one before. If so, what did you learn from it?

    Here's the one I've been to:

  • LR1955
    Super Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 3355

    #2
    GMAR:

    Let me suggest you get some good knee and elbow pads! He,he. I would not be crawling around wearing a T Shirt.

    Battle Belt? Like web gear of days gone by? I would not want to crawl with today's combat vest. Almost impossible without destroying magazines. Something to be said about a belt with mags on the sides like the old web gear.

    You won't find too many of these types of events because most Americans don't have the discipline to get into or stay in good condition.

    I do Biathlons and they are a bit different. I would say they are more physically demanding but have less shooting. And the .22 is used for the shooting part. However, the shooting done in Biathlon is probably more critical per shot than a Run and Gun. Only 20 shots max per race in Biathlon but probably more critical that one scores as many shots as possible. You won't win by being a fast skier alone. You got to be able to shoot well and be fast.

    Don't worry about heart rate. Heart rate isn't what is pushing your barrel around when you stop. Your respiration and muscle contractions are what is pushing the barrel around. I did an experiment on myself once to see how fast my heart rate dropped between stopping from exercise and my first shot with my rifle. I would say I was pushing about a 95% effort. My heart rate dropped by more than half within twenty seconds or so -- about the time it takes to remove the rifle from my back and get into my prone position. Yes, it was still beating hard enough for me to see barrel movement when using a sling. However, it dropped massively none the less. It wasn't my pulse causing the problems but rather respiration then muscles.

    Also, the literature indicates it is not possible for us to 'slow' down our heart rates through any sort of mental focusing exercise. What we can do is get our breathing in order so the heart and muscles calm down on their own a bit faster than if we just stood there panting.

    I will slow down a bit when about 200 meters from the firing line and transition my focus to breath control and visualization of the shooting. This prepares me for the shooting part. When removing my rifle from my back, I continue with my breath control and once in position I use very short belly breaths instead of chest breaths. That all said though, getting into a very hard position and using a very hard hold prone and a moderately hard hold standing is a better bet than trying to let things 'relax' into position. You ain't about to 'relax' if you have been smoking yourself physically for the last X minutes.

    You may want to consider a yoke to carry your rifle while you are running. I know someone makes them for those sniper competitions and they do work well if they are allowed. This would free up your arms so you can run better and be a bit less fatigued when you have to shoot.

    I would also certainly use a sling to shoot with given the rules allow one. Needs to be fast to get into and out of but must provide some sort of additional stability by pulling the stock into your shoulder. Something that uses an elastic type of strap so you can stretch it to get into but will pull the stock into your shoulder.

    Let me add that you need to find a good pair of foot gear. I would not want to run in traditional Jungle Boots or Combat Boots since they are too damn heavy. A pound on your feet equals something like an extra ten pounds on your back. And, you aren't in combat but rather competing in a sporting event. If I were doing what you are doing, I would look at some very good trail runners or shoes guys wear for one of those Spartan Race events. They are designed to be light but take the beating of a rough trail or no trail at all. A very good but light piece of foot wear will let you get to your firing positions with much less fatigue than any sort of traditional hiking or combat boot.

    I would also probably wear gloves since my hands would be sweaty and I do hold the rifle pretty hard so need a grip that won't slip. Look at the Mechanic's brand of work gloves. They make a thin model that I use in training. I also use bicycle riding gloves since they tend to have a friction type of pad for fingers and palm.

    As you can see, you may end up doing things thought to be unconventional for traditional shooting sports so don't hesitate to test things that go against the grain of historical thought on marksmanship.

    LR 1955



    I
    Last edited by LR1955; 09-15-2015, 12:49 PM.

    Comment

    • Jackem
      Bloodstained
      • Dec 2014
      • 48

      #3
      Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
      GMAR:

      Let me suggest you get some good knee and elbow pads! He,he. I would not be crawling around wearing a T Shirt.

      Battle Belt? Like web gear of days gone by? I would not want to crawl with today's combat vest. Almost impossible without destroying magazines. Something to be said about a belt with mags on the sides like the old web gear.

      You won't find too many of these types of events because most Americans don't have the discipline to get into or stay in good condition.

      I do Biathlons and they are a bit different. I would say they are more physically demanding but have less shooting. And the .22 is used for the shooting part. However, the shooting done in Biathlon is probably more critical per shot than a Run and Gun. Only 20 shots max per race in Biathlon but probably more critical that one scores as many shots as possible. You won't win by being a fast skier alone. You got to be able to shoot well and be fast.

      Don't worry about heart rate. Heart rate isn't what is pushing your barrel around when you stop. Your respiration and muscle contractions are what is pushing the barrel around. I did an experiment on myself once to see how fast my heart rate dropped between stopping from exercise and my first shot with my rifle. I would say I was pushing about a 95% effort. My heart rate dropped by more than half within twenty seconds or so -- about the time it takes to remove the rifle from my back and get into my prone position. Yes, it was still beating hard enough for me to see barrel movement when using a sling. However, it dropped massively none the less. It wasn't my pulse causing the problems but rather respiration then muscles.

      Also, the literature indicates it is not possible for us to 'slow' down our heart rates through any sort of mental focusing exercise. What we can do is get our breathing in order so the heart and muscles calm down on their own a bit faster than if we just stood there panting.

      I will slow down a bit when about 200 meters from the firing line and transition my focus to breath control and visualization of the shooting. This prepares me for the shooting part. When removing my rifle from my back, I continue with my breath control and once in position I use very short belly breaths instead of chest breaths. That all said though, getting into a very hard position and using a very hard hold prone and a moderately hard hold standing is a better bet than trying to let things 'relax' into position. You ain't about to 'relax' if you have been smoking yourself physically for the last X minutes.

      You may want to consider a yoke to carry your rifle while you are running. I know someone makes them for those sniper competitions and they do work well if they are allowed. This would free up your arms so you can run better and be a bit less fatigued when you have to shoot.

      I would also certainly use a sling to shoot with given the rules allow one. Needs to be fast to get into and out of but must provide some sort of additional stability by pulling the stock into your shoulder. Something that uses an elastic type of strap so you can stretch it to get into but will pull the stock into your shoulder.

      Let me add that you need to find a good pair of foot gear. I would not want to run in traditional Jungle Boots or Combat Boots since they are too damn heavy. A pound on your feet equals something like an extra ten pounds on your back. And, you aren't in combat but rather competing in a sporting event. If I were doing what you are doing, I would look at some very good trail runners or shoes guys wear for one of those Spartan Race events. They are designed to be light but take the beating of a rough trail or no trail at all. A very good but light piece of foot wear will let you get to your firing positions with much less fatigue than any sort of traditional hiking or combat boot.

      I would also probably wear gloves since my hands would be sweaty and I do hold the rifle pretty hard so need a grip that won't slip. Look at the Mechanic's brand of work gloves. They make a thin model that I use in training. I also use bicycle riding gloves since they tend to have a friction type of pad for fingers and palm.

      As you can see, you may end up doing things thought to be unconventional for traditional shooting sports so don't hesitate to test things that go against the grain of historical thought on marksmanship.

      LR 1955



      I

      Excellent post! I'm taking what you said about preparing yourself for the shot 200 yards before you get to the firing line to heart (pun intended) when hunting.

      Jack

      Comment

      • LRRPF52
        Super Moderator
        • Sep 2014
        • 8569

        #4
        Link is bad in the OP. Here's one that works: http://www.okrunngun.com/
        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

        www.AR15buildbox.com

        Comment

        • gmar
          Bloodstained
          • Aug 2015
          • 46

          #5
          LRRPF52,

          Thank you for all of your advice. I've been running in my S&W boots which weigh 2 lbs each. I never thought about how that translates to in weight and energy expended. The heart rate vs breathing makes sense and I'll have to focus on getting in better cardio shape for that. I get bored with running but the end result is worth it. The run does allow slings and whatever else you can carry. The battle belt is a huge step above the traditional vest, especially when going under the barbwire or across the cargo net.

          I'll start looking for new shoes for the upcoming Oct run.

          Thanks gain for the advice!!!

          Comment

          • LRRPF52
            Super Moderator
            • Sep 2014
            • 8569

            #6
            If you're going to be running in boots, I would look at Merrell's. They're extremely lightweight, the most comfortable boots I've ever owned (you typically go through a pair of boots every year or every deployment in combat arms units), and durable.

            When it comes to footwear though, you really need to have professional help in getting fitted for both the boot/shoe, and insoles. Foot shapes are all over the map, as are pronation styles. I use custom orthotics made by a gifted Orthotic and Prosthetic Technician. If you find a good one, they exceed the value of a podiatrist in droves since prevention outweighs treatment.

            I incorporate a lot of movement into most of my courses, since I really hate being anchored to a stationary firing position. I also have competed a lot in events that require sprinting if you're going to be competitive in the land nav stages, as well as many of the shooting stages. I also get to see what works well in extreme endurance races mixed with shooting competition, like with Sniper Adventure Challenge.

            Boots have come a long way in the past 10 years. Great to see people out smoking themselves.
            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

            www.AR15buildbox.com

            Comment

            • gmar
              Bloodstained
              • Aug 2015
              • 46

              #7
              One of the pieces of equipment that surprised me that failed were my Oakley Gascans. Due to their design, they don't breathe and fog up too easily. The last run in July was 100+ degrees and as soon as I started to sweat, they fogged up making it hard to see my target. Sometimes it's the little things that surprise you!

              Comment

              • LR1955
                Super Moderator
                • Mar 2011
                • 3355

                #8
                Originally posted by gmar View Post
                LRRPF52,

                Thank you for all of your advice. I've been running in my S&W boots which weigh 2 lbs each. I never thought about how that translates to in weight and energy expended. The heart rate vs breathing makes sense and I'll have to focus on getting in better cardio shape for that. I get bored with running but the end result is worth it. The run does allow slings and whatever else you can carry. The battle belt is a huge step above the traditional vest, especially when going under the barbwire or across the cargo net.

                I'll start looking for new shoes for the upcoming Oct run.

                Thanks gain for the advice!!!
                gmar:

                You are only running?

                Let me suggest you view exercise as a life long activity. By doing so, you will start to view your exercise program more critically and from there you will diversify your PT and eventually get into some sort of Periodization.

                Think about what you need to become physically and psychologically to do well in your competition and pen out a plan that covers at least a quarter of the year. After the competitive season is over, most athletes take a week or two off then start training again. They emphasize weight lifting with some aerobic work. They want to build a foundation of physical strength. Simple exercises -- cleans, bench, squat, overhead press. With some running but not much. They slowly transition emphasis from strength to endurance over maybe six months then do what ever peaking they need for specific events during their season.

                Since we aren't professional athletes, our training time is probably limited. So it pays to think about what you need physically then make a plan that is attainable given time and resources. Never bite off more than you can chew and never allow your training to be something you have to force yourself to do. The program you come up with must be personally satisfying or you won't do it. Goals must be attainable and must be what you want to attain. You may find the journey more satisfying than the competition itself.

                LR 1955

                Comment

                • gmar
                  Bloodstained
                  • Aug 2015
                  • 46

                  #9
                  I go to the gym at least three times a week to do weight training and sometimes do some boot camp type stuff with the wife. I wrestled for 12 years and worked at a gym training people during college but for as long as I can remember, I've always hated running. I agree when trying to stay in shape, it's a whole body thing inside and out, starting with the food you eat.

                  Comment

                  • montana
                    Chieftain
                    • Jun 2011
                    • 3209

                    #10
                    I see they have a picture of two Rhodesian Selous scouts on the Oklahoma Run and Gun page. Those boys had to be in shape. When I was working long hours I had limited time so I stuck to bench presses, squats and pull ups with a weighted belt. For cardio I would climb the mountain behind my house on the days I wasn't doing weight training. This helped keep me fit till I could get back to my regular exercise schedule. I never cared for running either. LR1955 is correct in finding a training exercise you can actually live with. Almost all the people I trained with would quit after a few months. The only one that didn't was a former special forces soldier like LR1955. Like old age, those guys will make you humble.

                    Comment

                    • LR1955
                      Super Moderator
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 3355

                      #11
                      Originally posted by gmar View Post
                      I go to the gym at least three times a week to do weight training and sometimes do some boot camp type stuff with the wife. I wrestled for 12 years and worked at a gym training people during college but for as long as I can remember, I've always hated running. I agree when trying to stay in shape, it's a whole body thing inside and out, starting with the food you eat.
                      GM:

                      My running days ended a number of years ago due to constant tendon issues. I did like it in the early morning but never was able to go a huge amount of distance due to my tendons. For cardio now I will roller ski, row, and ride bicycle. I have also been lifting for close to 40 years now and never got tired of it. I am doing one of the 5 X 5 programs now, 3 times a week. I also have a short Yoga routine I use to stretch and train my balance.

                      Here is one you are probably aware of from your wrestling days. Bulgarian Bag. I use it twice a week with rowing. Kind of a mini X Fit work out. I will admit that I have never used anything that brings smoke so fast.

                      I spend about two hours a day exercising. 5 times a week and maybe 6 if I feel up to it. I have my own gear so train at home, outside. Even in the winter.

                      Right now I need to get outside and do some stuff.

                      LR 1955

                      Comment

                      • gmar
                        Bloodstained
                        • Aug 2015
                        • 46

                        #12
                        I've never used a Bulgarian Bag before but I googled it and it looks interesting. I'll have to try it out. Sounds like you have an awesome routine going. I've been busy and lazy this summer and bag slacked off...time to start again!

                        Comment

                        • cutt
                          Unwashed
                          • Aug 2019
                          • 10

                          #13
                          agree completely with you. 'm 65 and try to get 4 or 5 workouts in a week. I can say that exercise has great benefits in for me in my silver years.

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