On Being John McClane

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  • stanc
    Banned
    • Apr 2011
    • 3430

    On Being John McClane

    Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
    To the topic of the 2A and this incident, as well as the one in France.

    Notice the target selection. Places where guns are not allowed, or what I call "Gun Spree Zones". Soft targets with high population density are perfect for savage vermin like this, who are looking to create the maximum body count.

    So there is something you can do just by being armed and trained. Here in Utah, teachers and other employees carry concealed on school campus. Many instructors provide free training for them.
    I'm not sure if this is the best sub-forum for a question I have, but since I don't know where better to post it, here goes.

    If you should find yourself in the midst of a terrorist shooting incident a la Paris or San Bernardino, and (as in the movie, Die Hard) you're the only good guy with a gun, you would have little trouble knowing who are the bad guys: They'd be anyone else with a weapon.

    However, what if it were to happen in a place where there are numerous private citizens who are carrying.

    How will you (and all the other CCWs) be certain of which person with a gun you should shoot?

    What measures (if any) can be taken to prevent the wrong people from being shot by well-meaning, good samaritans?
  • montana
    Chieftain
    • Jun 2011
    • 3209

    #2
    Originally posted by stanc View Post
    I'm not sure if this is the best sub-forum for a question I have, but since I don't know where better to post it, here goes.

    If you should find yourself in the midst of a terrorist shooting incident a la Paris or San Bernardino, and (as in the movie, Die Hard) you're the only good guy with a gun, you would have little trouble knowing who are the bad guys: They'd be anyone else with a weapon.

    However, what if it were to happen in a place where there are numerous private citizens who are carrying.

    How will you (and all the other CCWs) be certain of which person with a gun you should shoot?

    What measures (if any) can be taken to prevent the wrong people from being shot by well-meaning, good samaritans?
    I guess I would target the people randomly shooting people. As far as other concealed weapon holders I would hope they would do the same. I'm guessing any under cover police officer would do the same. The people screaming Allaha Akbar would also be a clue who to target.

    Comment

    • stanc
      Banned
      • Apr 2011
      • 3430

      #3
      Originally posted by montana View Post
      I guess I would target the people randomly shooting people. As far as other concealed weapon holders I would hope they would do the same. I'm guessing any under cover police officer would do the same. The people screaming Allaha Akbar would also be a clue who to target.
      Some follow-up questions:

      - What if you can't tell if the person is randomly shooting others?
      - Do you really want life or death decisions to be based on hope?
      - What if the perps are not shouting "Allahu Akbar"?

      What do you do if all you see is something like this:

      Comment

      • montana
        Chieftain
        • Jun 2011
        • 3209

        #4
        Kind of silly questions but I will play. 1). I would never use any lethal force on anyone unless I or others were in danger of imminent death.
        2.) There are no guarantees in a life or death situation so I don't base my reaction on hope but on my training and life's experiences. If I wasn't confident in my abilities I wouldn't carry
        a firearm. A brain surgeon gives no guarantees but he does train to give his patent the best possible chance at survival. Carrying a firearm has no less responsibility.
        3.) That was a joke son
        4.) Seriously, if a person pointed a pistol at me that close I would either disarm him or I would be dead.

        Comment

        • VASCAR2
          Chieftain
          • Mar 2011
          • 6218

          #5
          I think if your in a position when the shooting starts you might be able to comprehend what is going on. Just because your armed does not mean you can not escape if given the opprotunity. As a private citizen I would not run towards the gunfire unaware of the nature of what is going on.

          If the attacker was on the outside of the building shooting people inside you might have a clear shot if you also are outside or in the room where the attacker is shooting.

          If I were sitting at a table and I saw people around me being randomly shot by someone with a rifle I think I'd have justification to use deadly force to stop the rifle shooter.

          Comment

          • JASmith
            Chieftain
            • Sep 2014
            • 1620

            #6
            A factor most of us, and especially the anti-gun community, often forget is that there is no such state as "perfect safey."

            That means that the sheep truly gamble that the random killing won't happen when they are around. If it does, they hope that the police arrive in time before they get shot too. They tend to ignore the odds against them given the attack happens when they are there.

            The person carrying has to also understand that he or she is gambling that a) that hey are not the first to get shot, b) they can identify a suitable target, and c) There isn't second shooter they don't know about.

            Yes, there are indeed lots of examples of the person carrying either as LE a citizen gets shot or that they shoot the wrong person. There are, however, enough examples where the weapon in good guy hands makes enough of a difference to justify their presence.

            As for keeping guns out of the hands of the bad guys as our current leadership extols, consider Paris. France has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. That did not prevent the weapons from appearing there.

            We all need to accept that life is a gamble. The best we can do is to stack the odds favor of ourselves and our community.

            One of my former flight instruction colleagues had a favorite phrase that suncinctly summarises the issue: "Ya pays your dime and ya takes your chances!"
            shootersnotes.com

            "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
            -- Author Unknown

            "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

            Comment

            • stanc
              Banned
              • Apr 2011
              • 3430

              #7
              Originally posted by montana View Post
              Seriously, if a person pointed a pistol at me that close I would either disarm him or I would be dead.
              That was just the first photo with the desired pose that I came across. Apparently I should have searched for a pic that didn't make it look like the subject was at arm's length. Perhaps something like this one would've been better.



              I guess I wasn't clear in what I was trying to get at. Try this:

              You hear shots fired. You see dead people sprawled on the ground. You then see someone taking aim at you. He is too far away for you to attempt a disarm. You don't know if he is the shooter, or another CCW who suspects you of being the shooter. There is no cover available. What do you do?

              Comment

              • montana
                Chieftain
                • Jun 2011
                • 3209

                #8
                Originally posted by stanc View Post
                That was just the first photo with the desired pose that I came across. Apparently I should have searched for a pic that didn't make it look like the subject was at arm's length. Perhaps something like this one would've been better.



                I guess I wasn't clear in what I was trying to get at. Try this:

                You hear shots fired. You see dead people sprawled on the ground. You then see someone taking aim at you. He is too far away for you to attempt a disarm. You don't know if he is the shooter, or another CCW who suspects you of being the shooter. There is no cover available. What do you do?
                Seriously stanc ,trying to answer hypothetical scenarios is an exercise in futility. Were the dead people children in a school, bikers in a bar, shoppers in a mall? If there is so much doubt about concealed weapon holders using good judgement then that is your opinion. I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I have no delusions of being John Mcclane, Rambo or some other fictional character. I hope the drivers on the other lane of a highway are not drunk, distracted or crazy but that is not always the case. What would you do if a driver does this or that? All we can do is pay attention at all times and hope we react the best way possible. Keeping your head will save lives more than anything else. In the industry I have worked in some people are slow to react, panic or for lack of a better term have their heads up their back side. This is why some people have been killed where others have worked their entire lives without so much as a scratch. The professor I posted on the other thread admits he falls over the edge at times and wouldn't trust himself if he had access to a firearm during those moments of rage. Then he makes the assumption all gun owners are unstable like himself. Is this the point you are trying to make?

                Comment

                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  #9
                  Originally posted by montana View Post
                  Seriously stanc ,trying to answer hypothetical scenarios is an exercise in futility. Were the dead people children in a school, bikers in a bar, shoppers in a mall? If there is so much doubt about concealed weapon holders using good judgement then that is your opinion. I don't understand the point you are trying to make. ... In the industry I have worked in some people are slow to react, panic or for lack of a better term have their heads up their back side. This is why some people have been killed where others have worked their entire lives without so much as a scratch. The professor I posted on the other thread admits he falls over the edge at times and wouldn't trust himself if he had access to a firearm during those moments of rage. Then he makes the assumption all gun owners are unstable like himself. Is this the point you are trying to make?
                  No. And I'm not so much trying to make a point, as to see if anyone has a good idea for how to deal with what I see as a potentially serious problem that could result from numerous armed people -- who do not know each other, and who may not be readily distinguishable from the bad guy(s) -- being in the same location and concerned with eliminating a perceived threat.

                  Comment

                  • rabiddawg
                    Chieftain
                    • Feb 2013
                    • 1664

                    #10
                    Ok, I'm gonna put an end to this thread. All you have to do is yell

                    "Yippy ki ya_ _". The ones that don't jump for cover, chootm!

                    Last edited by rabiddawg; 12-09-2015, 08:03 PM.
                    Knowing everthing isnt as important as knowing where to find it.

                    Mark Twain

                    http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...2-Yd-Whitetail

                    Comment

                    • bwaites
                      Moderator
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 4445

                      #11
                      One would always hope that it would be relatively easy to identify the "bad guys" but as that old military dictum goes: "no plan survives first contact with the enemy".

                      However, if you are ALWAYS in status "Yellow" when you are in a public place, you should be aware enough that you recognize the change, or that something isn't "right".

                      Twice I have walked out of Walmart in my small town, saw something suspicious, and turned and walked back in, while grabbing my cell phone and dialing 911. Both times the people that exhibited suspicious behavior were arrested on outstanding warrants. I had a friend walk out with his little girl, who had spent her own money on a game station, when he recognized that the two guys following him out had also been hanging out in the electronics section when his daughter made her purchase. He promptly grabbed a cart and pushed it between two cars so anyone coming from behind would have to negotiated getting by it, and shoved his daughter down under his pickup, while drawing his gun. One of the guys came around the front of his rig, saw the gun and took off running, the second got caught in the basket, and froze when he saw the gun. He was arrested and his buddy was too, when the cops found him hiding in a dumpster.

                      It isn't always that clean cut, but situational awareness goes a long way!

                      Comment

                      • cory
                        Chieftain
                        • Jun 2012
                        • 2985

                        #12
                        Originally posted by rabiddawg View Post
                        Ok, I'm gonna put an end to this thread. All you have to do is yell

                        "Yippy ki ya_ _". The ones that don't jump for cover, chootm!

                        This made me laugh, a lot.

                        Stanc, Montana is right there is just far to many variables to answer such a broad question.

                        If you find yourself in this situation you've got to keep your head first and foremost. Asses the situation and if possible assess it twice. Seeing someone with a gun after previously hearing gun shots is not justification to shoot them.

                        Never take off into the middle of the room, always assess the situation from cover before pushing forward. At least until you understand who the target it then push forward with a rapid vengeance, if you're determined to push forward.

                        If we find ourselves in this situation we all have to make the decision that is best for us. If you are not 100% confident in your ability to take on the threat you are probably a better asset getting the individuals near you and yourself to safety.

                        Added:
                        What Bwaites said. Situational awareness is everything!!!
                        Last edited by cory; 12-09-2015, 09:39 PM.
                        "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

                        Comment

                        • LR1955
                          Super Moderator
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 3355

                          #13
                          Stan:

                          There is no training that encompasses every possible scenario.

                          I would say a person with excellent situational awareness based on these types of circumstances will probably make a better decision faster and even execute the decision he made well enough for him to succeed.

                          A person with poor SA will probably use poor input which will result in a bad decision or no decision at all. He may live through it but only due to luck.

                          No, you can't really train someone to be situationally aware in environments where there is no control, such as your scenario. You can do a decent job in closed environments such as airplane cockpits. In fact, it was the airline industry that coined the term 'Situational Awareness' I believe. Police use simulators, role players, etc but these are deliberately 'programmed' to emphasize very generic cues.

                          Bottom line is this. No one knows.

                          A note to everyone out there.

                          If you want to comment on how you were trained, your SA, the cues you look for -- please do so.

                          If you want to argue with Stan over whether or not the public as a whole should be allowed to carry firearms, go back to the Second Amendment forum and do so there.

                          LR55

                          Comment

                          • stanc
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 3430

                            #14
                            Gene,

                            I realize it's not feasible to train for every possible scenario. But, with the heightened concern over terrorist attacks of the kind seen recently, it seems like it would be prudent to at least think about the issue, if not train for it.

                            My understanding is that, when under stress, people tend to react the way they've trained. All of the training I've seen (and I don't claim to have seen it all, so I may have missed some that's relevant) is either of the "shoot 'em all" type, where every visible target is to be fired at, or the "shoot the one with the gun" type (as below).



                            So far these attacks have occurred in essentially "gun free" areas. If they should happen in a place where there are multiple CCWs present, it takes little imagination to see how the situation could go very wrong, with every gun-carrying person present having trained to shoot anyone with a gun.



                            Oh, one other thing: There is no need for concern about anybody wanting to argue with me over whether or not the public as a whole should be allowed to carry firearms, since I am firmly in favor of the right to keep and bear. I hope nobody has taken my question as opposition to either carrying a gun, or using it in such a scenario, because that was not my intent.

                            Comment

                            • LRRPF52
                              Super Moderator
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 8569

                              #15
                              Your 6th sense will tell you something is about to go wrong if you are in tune with it.

                              I can name several incidents in my life where there were instincts or gut feelings that told me, "You need to wire yourself tight right about now."

                              They were never wrong, and I listen.
                              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                              www.AR15buildbox.com

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