On Being John McClane

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  • sneaky one
    Chieftain
    • Mar 2011
    • 3077

    #16
    Always trust your instincts- drop, roll out- re evaluate your situation. Get some cover. Call in back up, always carry a weapon. Never ever surrender!

    Comment

    • LR1955
      Super Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 3355

      #17
      Originally posted by stanc View Post
      Gene,

      I realize it's not feasible to train for every possible scenario. But, with the heightened concern over terrorist attacks of the kind seen recently, it seems like it would be prudent to at least think about the issue, if not train for it.

      My understanding is that, when under stress, people tend to react the way they've trained. All of the training I've seen (and I don't claim to have seen it all, so I may have missed some that's relevant) is either of the "shoot 'em all" type, where every visible target is to be fired at, or the "shoot the one with the gun" type (as below).



      So far these attacks have occurred in essentially "gun free" areas. If they should happen in a place where there are multiple CCWs present, it takes little imagination to see how the situation could go very wrong, with every gun-carrying person present having trained to shoot anyone with a gun.



      Oh, one other thing: There is no need for concern about anybody wanting to argue with me over whether or not the public as a whole should be allowed to carry firearms, since I am firmly in favor of the right to keep and bear. I hope nobody has taken my question as opposition to either carrying a gun, or using it in such a scenario, because that was not my intent.
      Stan:

      Roger.

      The people who perform the best when under stress are the ones who can assess the environment, identify the single most important cue, then act on that cue.

      You are as good at doing this as anyone else so how about identifying the one or two most critical cues you personally would focus on given you believed a number of citizens were armed and there was some sort of anarchy breaking out around you in a public place.

      Then, your actions based on that or those cues.

      I can get into the training part once you can answer these questions somewhat clearly.

      LR55
      Last edited by LR1955; 12-10-2015, 12:44 PM.

      Comment

      • montana
        Chieftain
        • Jun 2011
        • 3209

        #18
        Originally posted by stanc View Post
        No. And I'm not so much trying to make a point, as to see if anyone has a good idea for how to deal with what I see as a potentially serious problem that could result from numerous armed people -- who do not know each other, and who may not be readily distinguishable from the bad guy(s) -- being in the same location and concerned with eliminating a perceived threat.
        Stanc, people including concealed weapon holders could make mistakes as law enforcement personnel can and do. The scenario of trigger happy CWH civilians shooting each other in a shooting mayhem is unlikely. Responsible gun owners wouldn't be panning innocent people with their firearms looking for a target as your picture represented. An active shooter would be. A little common sense can go along way.http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015...fighting-back/
        Last edited by montana; 12-10-2015, 03:23 PM.

        Comment

        • stanc
          Banned
          • Apr 2011
          • 3430

          #19
          Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
          The people who perform the best when under stress are the ones who can assess the environment, identify the single most important cue, then act on that cue.

          You are as good at doing this as anyone else so how about identifying the one or two most critical cues you personally would focus on given you believed a number of citizens were armed and there was some sort of anarchy breaking out around you in a public place.

          Then, your actions based on that or those cues.

          I can get into the training part once you can answer these questions somewhat clearly.
          Okay, Gene. I'll give it a shot, although it remains to be seen how clearly I can answer.

          The fact is that I have only thought of the rather obvious cue which has also been noted by others here: Were I to see somebody shoot one defenseless person, then another, and another, it would be reasonable to conclude that said shooter is a bad guy.

          But, what if I see one person shoot another armed individual, and then he turns to aim at me. That person could be the bad guy shooting a CCW who was trying to stop him, and intending to do likewise to me. Or it could be a CCW shooting the bad guy, and then taking aim at me, thinking that I might be a second bad guy. With no way to identify who is who, I honestly cannot think of a good method to deal with the situation.

          Comment

          • stanc
            Banned
            • Apr 2011
            • 3430

            #20
            Originally posted by montana View Post
            Stanc, people including concealed weapon holders could make mistakes as law enforcement personnel can and do. The scenario of trigger happy CWH civilians shooting each other in a shooting mayhem is unlikely. Responsible gun owners wouldn't be panning innocent people with their firearms looking for a target as your picture represented. An active shooter would be.
            Whoa. Back up a minute there. I said nothing about CCWs being trigger happy.

            I said that, if such an attack were to occur in an area where many citizens are armed, it looks to me like there would be a very real possibility of CCWs mistaking other CCWs for terrorists.

            A little common sense can go along way.http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015...fighting-back/
            It's one thing for a group of unarmed people (who know each other, and have a plan of attack) to overpower someone who is not trying to hurt them.

            It's something else entirely when it's a number of strangers, and the bad guy is actually shooting real bullets, killing and maiming people.



            And what the heck is it with the popularity among the shooting fraternity of heavy beards these days, anyway? In this day, I sure wouldn't want to look so much like al-Qaeda/Taliban/ISIS, etc.

            Last edited by stanc; 12-11-2015, 03:43 AM.

            Comment

            • bwaites
              Moderator
              • Mar 2011
              • 4445

              #21
              Studies show that armed civilians faced with mass shooting scenarios actually are significantly better at discriminating the bad guys and shooting the bad guys (and the bad guys only) than police officers. It is extremely tough to control for the variables, but statistically the numbers are in the armed civilians favor.

              Average dead in a mass shooting stopped by Police: 14.3
              Average dead in a mass shooting stopped by a citizen: 2.3

              Chance of a bystander being shot by a police officer stopping a mass shooting: 11%
              Chance of a bystander being shot by a civilian stopping a mass shooting: 2%

              Criminals killed each year by Police Officers: 606
              Criminals killed each year by civilians: 1527

              Kennesaw Georgia had a terrible crime problem in the late 1970s and early 1980's. In 1982 the city council passed a law requiring home owners to own and possess a firearm.

              Burglary rates dropped 89% in the first year, while Georgia experienced a drop of 10%. Today, violent crime rates in Kennesaw remain 85% below state and national averages, 33 years after the law was passed.

              It would seem that the proof is in the pudding, and the pudding says guns in the hands of civilians work to stop crime, at least in Kennesaw!

              Just as a closing thought the young daughter of a good friend said something today that had us all laughing.

              "Common sense can't be taught. You are either born with it, or you are a liberal." - Cassidy C.
              Last edited by bwaites; 12-11-2015, 03:35 AM.

              Comment

              • stanc
                Banned
                • Apr 2011
                • 3430

                #22
                If there's only 2.3 dead, it isn't really a mass shooting, is it?

                Kidding aside, those stats don't address the issue. Needed is data on potential mass shootings where 2 or more private citizens were involved.

                Shootings where only one armed private citizen was on the scene don't incur the possibility of mistaking a good guy with a gun for a bad guy with a gun.

                Comment

                • bwaites
                  Moderator
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 4445

                  #23
                  Originally posted by stanc View Post
                  If there's only 2.3 dead, it isn't really a mass shooting, is it?

                  Kidding aside, those stats don't address the issue. Needed is data on potential mass shootings where 2 or more private citizens were involved.

                  Shootings where only one armed private citizen was on the scene don't incur the possibility of mistaking a good guy with a gun for a bad guy with a gun.
                  They are called mass "shootings" not mass "killings" and as I said it is very difficult to control for the variables. At the only mass shooting I am aware of where there were more than 2 private citizens with weapons, the shooting was stopped without the use of those weapons.

                  Comment

                  • LR1955
                    Super Moderator
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 3355

                    #24
                    Originally posted by stanc View Post
                    Okay, Gene. I'll give it a shot, although it remains to be seen how clearly I can answer.

                    The fact is that I have only thought of the rather obvious cue which has also been noted by others here: Were I to see somebody shoot one defenseless person, then another, and another, it would be reasonable to conclude that said shooter is a bad guy.

                    But, what if I see one person shoot another armed individual, and then he turns to aim at me. That person could be the bad guy shooting a CCW who was trying to stop him, and intending to do likewise to me. Or it could be a CCW shooting the bad guy, and then taking aim at me, thinking that I might be a second bad guy. With no way to identify who is who, I honestly cannot think of a good method to deal with the situation.
                    Stan:

                    If you see someone pointing a gun at you, what will you do?

                    You can stand there and get shot or do something and maybe not get shot.

                    LR55

                    Comment

                    • stanc
                      Banned
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 3430

                      #25
                      Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                      If you see someone pointing a gun at you, what will you do?

                      You can stand there and get shot or do something and maybe not get shot.
                      Since I won't be carrying, and won't be able to "do something," I'll probably get shot.

                      Upon further reflection, I think I'm making much ado about a hypothetical situation that may never come to pass.

                      I suspect that I create such posts as a way to scratch my writing itch since I retired from writing for gun rags.

                      Comment

                      • LR1955
                        Super Moderator
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 3355

                        #26
                        Originally posted by stanc View Post
                        Since I won't be carrying, and won't be able to "do something," I'll probably get shot.

                        Upon further reflection, I think I'm making much ado about a hypothetical situation that may never come to pass.

                        I suspect that I create such posts as a way to scratch my writing itch since I retired from writing for gun rags.
                        Stan:

                        I doubt that is your intent in this thread. I honestly think your question is well worth asking. It is a natural result of the numbers of people who are getting CCWs these days.

                        However, you boxed yourself in by presenting the situation you presented. If someone is pointing a gun at your chest, your options are to stand and get shot or do something and maybe not get shot. If he is right in your face, you can grapple with him. If he is at a distance, you can seek cover real fast and get the hell out of there, or if you have your pistol pointed at him you can shoot him.

                        In your case, you better hope he is at a distance so you can try to get away.

                        LR55

                        Comment

                        • ricsmall
                          Warrior
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 987

                          #27
                          The way I'm interpreting the hypothetical situation, starts something like this: I hear shooting and screaming. I assess the situation from cover if possible, identify perps, then draw weapon and dispatch IF I'm in a situation that makes it possible. I'm not an expert or a veteran or even a novice for that matter. But I've shot enough in my life to be very proficient with all of my firearms and have enough common sense not to draw my sidearm and wave it around, making myself a target. Assess the situation, then react accordingly. Most important is situational awareness, which in this day is very important in any public setting. Maybe I've oversimplified this, but I like the acronym KISS.

                          Edit: as for the other ccw's, I hope they think similar to me, and they will realize I shot bad guy or I will realize they shot bad guy. Good question to stimulate thinking, but impossible to answer correctly. Too many variables.

                          Richard
                          Last edited by ricsmall; 12-11-2015, 03:37 PM.
                          Member since 2011, data lost in last hack attack

                          Comment

                          • Nick
                            Warrior
                            • Dec 2014
                            • 126

                            #28
                            Originally posted by ricsmall View Post
                            The way I'm interpreting the hypothetical situation, starts something like this: I hear shooting and screaming. I assess the situation from cover if possible, identify perps, then draw weapon and dispatch IF I'm in a situation that makes it possible. I'm not an expert or a veteran or even a novice for that matter. But I've shot enough in my life to be very proficient with all of my firearms and have enough common sense not to draw my sidearm and wave it around, making myself a target. Assess the situation, then react accordingly. Most important is situational awareness, which in this day is very important in any public setting. Maybe I've oversimplified this, but I like the acronym KISS.

                            Edit: as for the other ccw's, I hope they think similar to me, and they will realize I shot bad guy or I will realize they shot bad guy. Good question to stimulate thinking, but impossible to answer correctly. Too many variables.

                            Richard
                            To go along with this, if another ccw is engaged with the shooter and you have not made yourself involved in the fight, would it not be best just to leave yourself out for the reason stance in arguing? While there are two people engaged in a fire fight and you are not sure who is who, it also seems like a good opportunity to assist by helping civilians to escape the situation if possible

                            Comment

                            • JASmith
                              Chieftain
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 1620

                              #29
                              Originally posted by ricsmall View Post
                              The way I'm interpreting the hypothetical situation, starts something like this: I hear shooting and screaming. I assess the situation from cover if possible, identify perps, then draw weapon and dispatch IF I'm in a situation that makes it possible. I'm not an expert or a veteran or even a novice for that matter. But I've shot enough in my life to be very proficient with all of my firearms and have enough common sense not to draw my sidearm and wave it around, making myself a target. Assess the situation, then react accordingly. Most important is situational awareness, which in this day is very important in any public setting. Maybe I've oversimplified this, but I like the acronym KISS.

                              Edit: as for the other ccw's, I hope they think similar to me, and they will realize I shot bad guy or I will realize they shot bad guy. Good question to stimulate thinking, but impossible to answer correctly. Too many variables.

                              Richard
                              This and the previous post nicely encapsulate my view of how situational awareness morphs into the actual firefight:
                              • Stay out of sight, deploy weapon only when one is pretty sure of situation, use the firearm, and then put it away!

                              • Continue observation and react accordingly if another bad guy shows.

                              • Prepare for rather direct action by law enforcement when they enter the scene. That is one very good reason for your weapon to be out of sight and your hands visible even before they arrive.
                              Last edited by JASmith; 12-11-2015, 10:56 PM.
                              shootersnotes.com

                              "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
                              -- Author Unknown

                              "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

                              Comment

                              • NugginFutz
                                Chieftain
                                • Aug 2013
                                • 2622

                                #30
                                Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                                This and the previous post nicely encapsulate my view of how situational awareness morphs into the actual firefight:
                                • Stay out of sight, deploy weapon only when one is pretty sure of situation, use the firearm, and then put it away!

                                • Continue observation and react accordingly if another bad guy shows.

                                • Prepare for rather direct action by law enforcement when they enter the scene. That is one very good reason for your weapon to be out of sight and your hands visible even before they arrive.
                                +1.

                                If multiple CCW's are in the same environment as the situation deteriorates, they will have similar intel and might or might not come to similar conclusions. The more worrisome detail is being in the act of confronting or neutralizing the active shooter(s) when LE arrives on scene. I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that they will show up amped up, guns drawn and looking at every weapon they see as being in the hands of the bad guy.
                                If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

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