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Thread: 6.5 Grendel VS 300 AAC?

  1. #1
    recon562001
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    6.5 Grendel VS 300 AAC?

    I have been looking at the numbers and the AAC shoots a 125 grain 7.62 projectile at 2250 FPS producing 1405 foot ponds out of a 16 inch barrel while the Grendel shoots a 123 grain at 2650 FPS producing 1917 foot pounds from a 24 inch barrel.

    To me that seems that if I am using the Grendel in a 16 inch barrel that I am going to be getting about the same performance from either round. Dose that seem to be the case to any one else?

    I know there are quite a few guys on here that know much more about these things then I do so any input y'all have would be helpful.

  2. #2
    Chieftain
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    Run the data through a trajectory calculator, such as the JBM Ballistics website. I think you'll find that a 6.5 123gr bullet at ~2400 to 2450 fps from a 16" barrel will have more energy and flatter trajectory versus a .30 caliber 123gr at 2250.

    I think the 300 AAC might have been designed for suppressor use, and / or use with subsonic ammo, but I could be wrong.

    What would be the intended use of the cartridge(s) for you?
    Drifter

  3. #3
    Moderator bwaites's Avatar
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    Intended use here is a critical decision.

    The AAC was developed for use as a suppressed round for short ranges, say, 200 yards or less and was really targeted and designed as a subsonic round.

    The Grendel is a multipurpose round, and useful at much greater ranges.
    ”You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.” - John Galt

  4. #4
    Chieftain BjornF16's Avatar
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    I have a Noveske 10.5" 300 BLK bolt/barrel/upper receiver with Troy Extreme handguard. I really enjoy shooting this rig. I'm still awaiting my YHM suppressor so I don't know how it shoots suppressed. After some testing, I'll decide whether or not to make this my home defense rig.

    Here is what the AAC website says:

    DESIGN OBJECTIVES
    • Create a reliable compact 30-cal solution for the AR platform
    • Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity
    • Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire
    • Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62x39 ballistics
    • Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-mass projectiles
    • Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package

    9" Ballistics:
    @ Muzzle:
    5.56mm, M855 2558 ft/s, 901 ft-lb
    300 BLK, 155 gr SMK 1785 ft/s, 1096 ft-lb (22% over 5.56mm)
    7.62x39mm, 123 gr* 2022 ft/s. 1117 ft-lb
    6.8 SPC, Hornady TAP 110* 2157 ft/s. 1136 ft-lb

    300 BLK, 123gr MC 2130 ft/s, 1238 ft-lb (37% over 5.56mm, 9% over 6.8 SPC TAP 110)

    Björn


  5. #5
    recon562001
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    I was thinking about making a scout style rifle that could also be suppressed but I think I am going to step up to the 6.5 Creedmoor so I have a light weight general purpose rifle capable of taking game up to elk.

    And no I am not going to use the suppressor for hunting I just want one because I am an American and I can.

  6. #6
    JASmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by recon562001 View Post
    I have been looking at the numbers and the AAC shoots a 125 grain 7.62 projectile at 2250 FPS producing 1405 foot ponds out of a 16 inch barrel while the Grendel shoots a 123 grain at 2650 FPS producing 1917 foot pounds from a 24 inch barrel.

    To me that seems that if I am using the Grendel in a 16 inch barrel that I am going to be getting about the same performance from either round. Dose that seem to be the case to any one else?
    Alexander Arms (http://www.alexanderarms.com/) has a downloadable sheet of ballistics for a variety of barrel lengths. Their sheet lists the 123 gr Scenar as having a muzzle velocity of 2480 ft/sec from a 16" barrel.

    And yes, Drifter has it right -- Your 123 Grendel bullet starting 200 ft/sec faster will outshine the 125 gr 7.62 projectile in just about any category you can think of! (Except for cost of ammo!)

  7. #7
    Moderator bwaites's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASmith View Post
    Alexander Arms (http://www.alexanderarms.com/) has a downloadable sheet of ballistics for a variety of barrel lengths. Their sheet lists the 123 gr Scenar as having a muzzle velocity of 2480 ft/sec from a 16" barrel.

    And yes, Drifter has it right -- Your 123 Grendel bullet starting 200 ft/sec faster will outshine the 125 gr 7.62 projectile in just about any category you can think of! (Except for cost of ammo!)
    Have you priced that 300 AAC ammo? There ain't no cheap stuff I've found. Comparable to, or even higher, than Grendel ammo.
    ”You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.” - John Galt

  8. #8
    JASmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites View Post
    Have you priced that 300 AAC ammo? There ain't no cheap stuff I've found. Comparable to, or even higher, than Grendel ammo.
    OK Bill, ya got me again! I was thinking of all that cheap 7.62X39 stuff. The velocity was about right for it too.

    Cheers!

  9. #9
    LRRPF52
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    Quote Originally Posted by recon562001 View Post
    I was thinking about making a scout style rifle that could also be suppressed but I think I am going to step up to the 6.5 Creedmoor so I have a light weight general purpose rifle capable of taking game up to elk.

    And no I am not going to use the suppressor for hunting I just want one because I am an American and I can.
    The Creedmor will force you to move up to a larger action like the AR10. If you're going to do that, you might as well go .260 Rem and get a little more velocity, plus way more brass source options. Lightweight will be difficult to achieve though, since the AR10 action is much larger. Sure, you can profile down the barrel into a pencil, and use skeletonized stocks, but that pipe will heat-up really quick, and won't be fun to shoot so much, unless you use a deafening brake. This is why the Grendel makes a lot of sense:

    * You can have a heavier barrel, and still have a light gun
    * You can shoot it all day long, gaining more proficiency with it.
    * You can suppress it and still have a lower-profile gun
    * While not your first large game choice, the Grendel has successfully taken Elk out to 405 yards.

    Another cartridge to look at is the 6.5x47 Lapua, but that puts you back into AR10 action territory again. You have to prioritize what you want to do with your rifle, and take it from there. The .300 Whisper is a totally different animal than the Grendel, with a totally different purpose: Run extremely quiet with higher BC bullets at the threshold of subsonic flight within a limited range.

  10. #10
    Chieftain BjornF16's Avatar
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    I was thinking about making a scout style rifle that could also be suppressed but I think I am going to step up to the 6.5 Creedmoor so I have a light weight general purpose rifle capable of taking game up to elk.
    Grendel v Blackout...go with Grendel.

    I have two Grendel hunting guns. They are more than adequate for elk.

    Blackout would better applied to suppressed home defense (not that the Grendel is not adequate for that as well).

    260 Rem is a good choice for hunting as well.

  11. #11
    LRRPF52
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    I use .260 Rem for ranges out to 1100m for long-range field and military competitions, where I know I will be in the bipod-prone, fighting position standing, or other supported positions most of the time. It really starts to shine over other calibers at 500m, but it is not the rifle I want to lug around so much in the heavy barrel form that I have, even at 22". My Grendel is light as a feather compared to the AR10's with target barrels, and I can shoot the Grendel a lot with its lighter barrel without fatigue. The Grendel also doesn't suck a ton of powder when I load for it, so that means less trips to the store for powder.

    When I have done 2-day long-range courses with a featherweight .308 dropped into a McMillan A4 stock, even suppressed, it beat the trash out of my face and head, and that was with 155gr Scenars. The gun still shot 1/3rd MOA all day long, since it is a Sako 75 .308 with an amazingly accurate barrel, but it was abusive over extended shooting sessions. Not so with the Grendel, especially when you go to a heavier barrel. It feels recoilless in heavy barrel format to me, without a brake. While it may be the slower cartridge for distance work, it is a great balance of weight, accuracy, and efficiency.

  12. #12
    JASmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by BjornF16 View Post
    Grendel v Blackout...go with Grendel.

    I have two Grendel hunting guns. They are more than adequate for elk.

    Blackout would better applied to suppressed home defense (not that the Grendel is not adequate for that as well).

    260 Rem is a good choice for hunting as well.
    The 260 Rem is an under appreciated sleeper. It shows ballistics approaching those of the .270 Winchester in a .308-length case.

    Similarly, the Grendel can to as well or better than the .243 Win with a .223 Rem-length cartridge. Its a surprising result, but you can check out a discussion of the comparison at http://shootersnotes.com/grendelmani...or-large-game/.

  13. #13
    LRRPF52
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    Joe,
    That's funny that you mention .260 Rem versus .270 Winchester. I recently purchased two different projectile types for my .270, since there are match pills available now from Sierra and Berger. Sierra makes the .277 135 SMK, and Berger makes the .277 130 and 140 Hunting VLD's. I got the 140 Bergers, and ran both G1 and G7 forms through Berger's ballistic program. The .270 needs at least 250fps more MV to match the .260 pushing the 6.5mm 140gr Berger VLD, but the 6.5 has quite a bit less wind drift at 1000 yards.

    That being said, if you really push the .270 to 3000 fps and faster, you can get under 8 Mils of elevation for 1000 yard impact, which is pretty nice, but I can do that with the .260 Rem and much less velocity, like I said. You can tell which is the superior caliber for aerodynamics by just looking at the 6.5's versus .277's. The .260 starts to deliver more muzzle energy and flatter trajectory at 500 yards when comparing the 140 Berger VLD's in 6.5 and .277. It takes around 60 grains or more of powder for the .270 to launch at those velocities, and a long action as well. At least I have some use for the H4831 powder I bought now in a case that can suck it up. The .270's attraction is that it delivers more mass per area of impact, so it will probably ring steel nicely. I'll see soon enough!

  14. #14
    JASmith
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    And guess which rifle I bought? The only problem with my BLR in .270 Win is an atrocious trigger pull.

    Yes, I've already run down the possibilities for making it better, but even the Browning folks say that I've got the best that can be done given the design. Much of the trigger group moves with the lever, so the creep and heavy pull result from margins needed to assure safety.

    I continue to be amazed at the accuracy reported by AR users!

  15. #15
    Nimrod
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASmith View Post
    And guess which rifle I bought? The only problem with my BLR in .270 Win is an atrocious trigger pull.

    Yes, I've already run down the possibilities for making it better, but even the Browning folks say that I've got the best that can be done given the design. Much of the trigger group moves with the lever, so the creep and heavy pull result from margins needed to assure safety.

    I continue to be amazed at the accuracy reported by AR users!
    I don't intend to hj the thread but I just got a BLR take down I'm .325 WSM and it has a trigger that you need three fingers to pull. I have a gun smith neat by that says Thai can make it better, when I hey it worked on I will let you know how it turned out.

  16. #16
    warped
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    Probably the best designed .270win rifle is the Remington 760 or 7600, much can be done with that and a trigger job is super easy.

    A pump action rifle with free floated bbl, what is there not to like?

    Besides having an action nearly as fast as a semi-auto.

  17. #17
    warped
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRRPF52 View Post
    Joe,
    That's funny that you mention .260 Rem versus .270 Winchester. I recently purchased two different projectile types for my .270, since there are match pills available now from Sierra and Berger. Sierra makes the .277 135 SMK, and Berger makes the .277 130 and 140 Hunting VLD's. I got the 140 Bergers, and ran both G1 and G7 forms through Berger's ballistic program. The .270 needs at least 250fps more MV to match the .260 pushing the 6.5mm 140gr Berger VLD, but the 6.5 has quite a bit less wind drift at 1000 yards.



    That being said, if you really push the .270 to 3000 fps and faster, you can get under 8 Mils of elevation for 1000 yard impact, which is pretty nice, but I can do that with the .260 Rem and much less velocity, like I said. You can tell which is the superior caliber for aerodynamics by just looking at the 6.5's versus .277's. The .260 starts to deliver more muzzle energy and flatter trajectory at 500 yards when comparing the 140 Berger VLD's in 6.5 and .277. It takes around 60 grains or more of powder for the .270 to launch at those velocities, and a long action as well. At least I have some use for the H4831 powder I bought now in a case that can suck it up. The .270's attraction is that it delivers more mass per area of impact, so it will probably ring steel nicely. I'll see soon enough!
    We are getting nearly 3200fps on a 130 SST with awesome groups. The Remington 760 is a slick old gun if you know how to tweak it just right. Plus you do not have to break your cheek weld while firing and tracking for another shot is needed.

  18. #18
    JASmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by warped View Post
    We are getting nearly 3200fps on a 130 SST with awesome groups. The Remington 760 is a slick old gun if you know how to tweak it just right. Plus you do not have to break your cheek weld while firing and tracking for another shot is needed.
    3200 with 130 gr? Sounds interesting --

    My dad taught me to work both bolt and levers while keeping the rifle in position, including the cheek weld.

    Took a bit of practice, but the actions got a lot smoother too!

  19. #19
    warped
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    Here is some interesting info for you then, I forget the powder my friend loads for our .270win's but it might be this or something close.

    Hornady® Superformance™

    SUPERFORMANCE ammunition is loaded with proprietary propellants that increase the velocity ratings up to 200 feet per second compared to other popular brands. Because there is no increase in pressure, regardless of the caliber, there is no increase in felt recoil but there IS an increase in efficiency and high speed performance. From sub-zero arctic temperatures to almost unbearable desert heat, SUPERFORMANCE ammunition can withstand any hunting habitat.

    Technical Information
    Caliber: 270 Winchester
    Bullet Weight: 130 Grains
    Bullet Style: SST

    Case Type: Brass

    Ballistics Information:
    Muzzle Velocity: 3200 fps
    Muzzle Energy: 2955 ft. lbs.

  20. #20
    recon562001
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    Coming back from the 270. I am going with the 6.5 Creedmoor its going to be a bolt gun so I do not have to worry about the increased size of a AR10 platform also the Creedmoor is nearly a ballistic twin of the 260, will feed consistently from 308 mags, and takes the same bullets I already load my Grendel with.

    If I end up needing any more gun then that I have a 30-06 witch will and has taken most North American game, and if I still need to step up its going to have to be in the 375H&H class.

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