Wolf Steel Case

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  • pinzgauer
    Warrior
    • Mar 2011
    • 440

    #46
    Originally posted by stanc
    And there also are AR's which reportedly have had a high rates of failures to fire Berdan-primed 7.62x39 ammo, discussion of which led to this point, and concern that the same issue might arise with Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammo.
    If you research this a bit you'll find it's not berdan primers that are the issue. Instead it's the thicker primer cups of mil-spec 7.62x39. AR's have not had a problem with berdan primed steel cased 5.56. Nor have 7.62 battle rifles (M-14, HK91, FAL) with berdan primed mil-surp ammo.

    Likewise, there are many AR's with modified trigger kit's which do have a problem with mil-spec 5.56 with boxer primers for the same reason, thicker primer cups. In fact the JP spring kit I used in one of my AR's tells you their will not work, as do many other trigger kits.

    Call it conjecture, but something tells me Wolf will source appropriate primers for the steel cased grendel. They are a marketing company, and have the ammo made for them to their spec in various factories. People did not like the lacquer coating, so they sourced the polymer coating, etc.

    Even if wolf does use russian spec primer cups, the fix is not complex or expensive. The 1 lb heavier hammer spring for mini-30's is every bit of $13. Would I use a heavier hammer spring to be able to shoot $.30 ammo? In a heartbeat, though I predict it will not be needed.

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    • pinzgauer
      Warrior
      • Mar 2011
      • 440

      #47
      Originally posted by stanc
      I'd think they would be more likely to use the same primers for the 6.5 Grendel ammo as they do for 7.62x39.
      OK Stan, you win.....

      Wolf will not be smart enough to:
      - Work with their contract mfg to use the right primer type
      - Make sure the cartridge works with the rifles it's intended
      - Ask AA to do the same
      - Use thinner primer cups like they do for their berdan primed steel cased 5.56 ammo

      This is not black art. There are published standards for primer strikes and a standard gauge. The M16A2 and M4 carbine are required to produce 0.020 Cu indent measured on this gage, with normal firing pin driven protrusion measured in the range of 0.028-0.032". Any rifle which does not do this is out of spec. Any primers which allow a lesser or greater dimple are also out of spec.

      And if it's not sorted, then the Wolf steel grendel will get very cheap and my plan to market a "steel grendel" hammer spring will move into motion.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by pinzgauer View Post
        OK Stan, you win.....

        Wolf will not be smart enough to:
        - Work with their contract mfg to use the right primer type
        - Make sure the cartridge works with the rifles it's intended
        - Ask AA to do the same
        - Use thinner primer cups like they do for their berdan primed steel cased 5.56 ammo

        )
        I think you may be right. After all Wolf brass ammo has it's share of issues, why would they improve on quality and reliability at a leaser price? Good call!

        Comment

        • pinzgauer
          Warrior
          • Mar 2011
          • 440

          #49
          Originally posted by mseric View Post
          I think you may be right. After all Wolf brass ammo has it's share of issues, why would they improve on quality and reliability at a leaser price? Good call!
          OK, you win as well. I'll call AA tomorrow and tell them not to bother, we don't need an economy line of ammo.

          Let's see Wolf Brass grendel was:
          - dirty
          - Brass did not last as long in reloads as the $1/case Lapua
          - Optimized for reliability, which means a bit undersized
          - SPT was not accurate and fouled for some. Others did not see the fouling.
          - MPT turned out to shoot pretty well, though still dirty.

          No wave of kabooms, misfires, or other horrendous claims. For ammo that was a fraction of the price of the alternative prior to the release of Hornady. Heck, I paid $9/box for wolf when you could not get any other factory ammo at any price. It's economy blaster ammo comparable or better than economy lines from some big name mfg's.

          Meanwhile, Federal XM & Remington UPC all had pretty checkered reputations for quality. With recalls, and documented kabooms.

          Wolf is a marketing company/importer. Brass wolf was made by PPU. I'm not aware of much steel cased made by PPC, wolf normally works with other ex-combloc factories for that.

          Sounds like you guys are convinced we don't need an economy line, or if we do it should not be an eastern europe factory. Hint: No one else with perhaps the exception of Korea (PMC) or Israel (IMI) could even produce ammo approaching that price point. Price the cheapest US made 7.62x39 or 6.8 for comparison. Or even US made 5.56 in RP UPC and even it's half the material cost, yet still expensive.

          Comment


          • #50
            No wave of kabooms, misfires, or other horrendous claims.
            Think you forgot about this.
            http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...son-(with-pics)
            Could be the rifle, but a lot of speculation leads to Bad Wolf Ammo.

            Comment

            • pinzgauer
              Warrior
              • Mar 2011
              • 440

              #51
              Originally posted by stanc
              You also didn't answer my question: Do the Berdan primers used in Russian commercial 7.62x39 have thinner primer cups than their milspec ammo?
              This I do not know.

              I do know:
              - the primer cups in their 5.56 steel case is thinner and works just fine in AR's. So they clearly know how to make thinner cups and how to make ammo that works in AR's
              - The primer cups in mil 7.62x39 are very thick and hard due to slamfire risks in SKS's.
              - There is nothing intrinsic about Berdan primers which requires thicker cups.
              - Some guns made for civvy ammo (and primers) have problems even with US mil-spec primers in 5.56 and 7.62. Bolt guns with light/short stroke firing pins. Super light trigger AR's & M-14's, etc. So it's not a new problem, just which may cause us to revisit our trigger choices in the AR's if we want to shoot cheap ammo.

              We'll just have to see if they cheap out and just use 7.62x39 cups, or do something more commercial for Grendel.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by mseric View Post
                Think you forgot about this.
                http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...son-(with-pics)
                Could be the rifle, but a lot of speculation leads to Bad Wolf Ammo.
                Why do you have to throw my rifle into this mix??? lol. I am betting on the wolf ammo. My upper has been to AA twice to be checked and spec'd specifically for the wolf and the hornady ammo. It might be overgassed, but I still think this older wolf mpt brass is the main culprit......just my thoughts, though.

                Comment

                • pinzgauer
                  Warrior
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 440

                  #53
                  Originally posted by mseric View Post
                  Think you forgot about this.
                  http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...son-(with-pics)
                  Could be the rifle, but a lot of speculation leads to Bad Wolf Ammo.
                  Holy cow, that's a pretty big leap to "kabooms". Re-read that thread. There are dissenting views as to what is actually happening there. With probably 3-4 different potential causes, with high pressure ammo being fairly far down that list.

                  If you think this taints wolf then you should just stick to AA ammo. Even Hornady has had similar critiques of it. (and the occasional lose primer pockets)

                  I get it loud and clear, you guys don't like wolf or combloc mfg's ammo. I'm worn out on the subject.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by QuadCam View Post
                    Why do you have to throw my rifle into this mix??? lol. I am betting on the wolf ammo. My upper has been to AA twice to be checked and spec'd specifically for the wolf and the hornady ammo. It might be overgassed, but I still think this older wolf mpt brass is the main culprit......just my thoughts, though.
                    Me thinks it's the ammo as well. But if it were my rifle I would not rest until I knew for sure. More ammo testing and maybe a few phone calls are in order, just to be sure.

                    Holy cow, that's a pretty big leap to "kabooms".
                    Not really. This is a blown primer from a factory load. Soft brass or not this should not happen. Fed 223 is some of the softest POS brass around and cannot be handloaded more than once at best, even at that it does not "Blow" primers on the first firing. If his rifle is GTG, according to Bill A it is, then this ammo is junk, pure and simple junk. What makes you think Wolf will take the time to manufacture "Quality Ammo" at a reduced price? Taint Gunna Happen, JMHO.

                    Comment

                    • pinzgauer
                      Warrior
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 440

                      #55
                      Originally posted by mseric View Post
                      Not really. This is a blown primer from a factory load.
                      You are confusing a loose primer pocket with a blown (pierced) primer. The 70k you mention in the other thread for "blown" primers would cause many, many other problems for the grendel in an AR. Loose primer pockets would be the least of your concern as I understand it. And at that range of pressure you would see a fully flattened primer with signs of tool marks.

                      On the other hand, lower pressure loads and too much headspace will cause a flattened look as well as the black ring like the wolf primers are showing. This is when the primer slips back on firing due to excessive headspace, then is pushed back in (and flattened) when the case fully expands.

                      I agree something is wrong, just do not believe there is enough evidence to conclude it's excessive pressure *yet*. Exactly what is the question. Given the Hornady in the same photo's shows some of the same conditions (ejector marks, etc) several of us do not make the leap to the "Wolf sucks" like you have.

                      The loose primer is problematic, I'd be curious to see if there are others which are loose. (tapping the cases to see if they fall out. Or seat a new primer to see how loose it feels)

                      More fault isolation is needed. Shoot some of the wolf lot in a known good rifle. Shoot some AA or Hornady in that rifle. Check the throat depth (pretty easy) to rule out a short throat. Check headspace (which I'd assume AA did). Swap bolts with a known good rifle with the same bolt/barrel design.

                      I have a bolt which produces identical marks and extractor shaving. I swap it with another bolt, the problem moves to that rifle. It's independent of load pressure, or ammo type. (reloads, hornady, or wolf).

                      So if you want to portray Wolf as "junk" based on your interpretation of someone else's photo, feel free. Wolf MPT is what it is. reasonably priced ammo of reasonable construction. Hornady is better. AA is better than that. But the better is measured in case life, accuracy, bullet performance. Not in kabooms. (so far at least)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I don't portray Wolf as "Junk" based on someone else's photos, I base it on the fact that it is cheap Russian made Berdan primer ammo that has the quality control of, well Russian made ammo, there are countless AR, Mini and even AK shooters that have nothing but problems with Wolf ammo. The Wolf ammo that is out there now in 223/5.56, 7.62x39 and yes even the Grendel is Junk. Cheap yes, accurate NO, reliable NO, Junk yes.
                        Getting all giddy and excited about a new source of cheap Grendel ammo is great as long as the ammo deserves to be called "Grendel" which in my opinion the Wolf does not deserve.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          For those people who want to shoot the Grendel as more of a plinker or high-volume gun, the availability of Wolf ammo will facilitate that better. As for mitigating the common chamber-seizing issues I've experienced with Wolf in numerous guns, I would suggest using a Nitro-carburized barrel or highly-polished chamber. It just opens more doors, while not closing any for those who choose to shoot match quality ammunition, and could likely spur one of the more affordable ammunition makers who uses brass cases to get in on the market...more win.

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                          • #58
                            I wonder if this was Wolf Ammo?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by pinzgauer View Post

                              The loose primer is problematic, I'd be curious to see if there are others which are loose. (tapping the cases to see if they fall out. Or seat a new primer to see how loose it feels)
                              yup......had plenty of loose primers......after cleaning cleaning wolf grendel brass, I have found primers at the bottom of my cleaning bucket that had fallen out of the cases during cleaing.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Stan,

                                Here's another one that will improve your mood for the day as well...

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