23" Lilja 123 AMX CFE 223 & AR COMP Ladders

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  • brut28481
    Warrior
    • Mar 2016
    • 117

    23" Lilja 123 AMX CFE 223 & AR COMP Ladders

    I have been lurking for a few months soaking up everyone's insight, and decided to build a 23" Lilja Grendel with 4-16 Vortex FFP. Its a great set-up getting hole on top of hole pretty consistently @ 100yds with Hornaday Factory 123 SST/AMAX. I just ran my first ladders with CFE223 & ARCOMP and I am somewhat surprised that ARCOMP ran much tighter groups & so much slower the CFE. I see a lot of people getting good groups with CFE. Data below (sorry for the overload). My question is this, given the lower velocity and the intention of reaching out to 1,000yd+ at some point, should I continue to work with CFE and try to dial in groups or stick with ARCOMP at lower velocity. Thoughts, opinions?

    Set: 10
    Created: 04-14-2016 11:28:50 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: AR COMP 26.7 COAL 2.250
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2438 1623.63 299.87
    4 2409 1585.24 296.31
    3 2433 1616.98 299.26
    2 2421 1601.07 297.78
    1 2423 1603.72 298.03
    Average: 2424.80
    StdDev: 11.28
    Min: 2409
    Max: 2438
    Spread: 29
    True MV: 2427.55
    Shots/sec: 0.06
    Group Size (IN): 0.50


    Set: 9
    Created: 04-14-2016 11:18:57 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: AR COMP 27.0 COAL 2.250
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2444 1631.63 300.61
    4 2438 1623.63 299.87
    3 2450 1639.66 301.35
    2 2451 1640.99 301.47
    1 2440 1626.30 300.12
    Average: 2444.60
    StdDev: 5.81
    Min: 2438
    Max: 2451
    Spread: 13
    True MV: 2447.37
    Shots/sec: 0.05
    Group Size (IN): 0.38


    Set: 8
    Created: 04-14-2016 11:03:35 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: AR COMP 27.3 COAL 2.250
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2477 1675.99 304.67
    4 2479 1678.70 304.92
    3 2484 1685.48 305.53
    2 2468 1663.84 303.56
    1 2480 1680.06 305.04
    Average: 2477.60
    StdDev: 5.94
    Min: 2468
    Max: 2484
    Spread: 16
    True MV: 2480.41
    Shots/sec: 0.08
    Group Size (IN): 0.37


    Set: 7
    Created: 04-14-2016 10:53:29 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: AR COMP 27. 6 COAL 2.250
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2489 1692.27 306.15
    4 2479 1678.70 304.92
    3 2503 1711.36 307.87
    2 2498 1704.53 307.25
    1 2487 1689.55 305.90
    Average: 2491.20
    StdDev: 9.44
    Min: 2479
    Max: 2503
    Spread: 24
    True MV: 2494.03
    Shots/sec: 0.06
    Group Size (IN): 0.41


    Set: 6
    Created: 04-14-2016 10:45:04 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: AR COMP 27.9 COAL 2.250
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2485 1686.84 305.65
    4 2506 1715.47 308.24
    3 2483 1684.12 305.41
    2 2474 1671.94 304.30
    1 2458 1650.38 302.33
    Average: 2481.20
    StdDev: 17.48
    Min: 2458
    Max: 2506
    Spread: 48
    True MV: 2484.02
    Shots/sec: 0.11
    Group Size (IN): 0.69


    Set: 5
    Created: 04-14-2016 10:07:17 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: CFE 32.1 COAL 2.260
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2650 1918.28 325.95
    4 2650 1918.28 325.95
    3 2667 1942.97 328.04
    2 2663 1937.15 327.55
    1 2623 1879.39 322.63
    Average: 2650.60
    StdDev: 17.21
    Min: 2623
    Max: 2667
    Spread: 44
    True MV: 2653.61
    Shots/sec: 0.05
    Group Size (IN): 0.53


    Set: 4
    Created: 04-14-2016 09:56:02 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: CFE 31.9 COAL 2.260
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2636 1898.07 324.23
    4 2639 1902.39 324.60
    3 2656 1926.98 326.69
    2 2642 1906.72 324.97
    1 2632 1892.31 323.74
    Average: 2641.00
    StdDev: 9.17
    Min: 2632
    Max: 2656
    Spread: 24
    True MV: 2644.00
    Shots/sec: 0.04
    Group Size (IN): 1.34


    Set: 3
    Created: 04-14-2016 09:43:58 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: CFE 31.7 COAL 2.260 NO BHO
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2624 1880.82 322.75
    4 2644 1909.60 325.21
    3 2638 1900.95 324.47
    2 2615 1867.94 321.64
    1 2612 1863.66 321.28
    Average: 2626.60
    StdDev: 14.03
    Min: 2612
    Max: 2644
    Spread: 32
    True MV: 2629.58
    Shots/sec: 0.06
    Group Size (IN): 1.27


    Set: 2
    Created: 04-14-2016 09:27:55 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: CFE 31.5 COAL 2.260
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2612 1863.66 321.28
    4 2557 1786.00 314.51
    3 2610 1860.81 321.03
    2 2598 1843.74 319.55
    1 2577 1814.05 316.97
    Average: 2590.80
    StdDev: 23.47
    Min: 2557
    Max: 2612
    Spread: 55
    True MV: 2593.74
    Shots/sec: 0.04
    Group Size (IN): 2.36


    Set: 1
    Created: 04-14-2016 09:10:15 AM
    Description: 65 Grendel
    Notes 1: CFE 31.3 COAL 2.260
    Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
    Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
    Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
    Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
    Temp: N/A
    BP: N/A
    Shots
    # FPS FT-LBS PF
    5 2599 1845.16 319.68
    4 2609 1859.38 320.91
    3 2617 1870.80 321.89
    2 2597 1842.32 319.43
    1 2600 1846.58 319.80
    Average: 2604.40
    StdDev: 8.41
    Min: 2597
    Max: 2617
    Spread: 20
    True MV: 2607.36
    Shots/sec: 0.07
    Group Size (IN): 2.52
  • LRRPF52
    Super Moderator
    • Sep 2014
    • 8569

    #2
    Welcome aboard.

    Is your barrel bedded into the upper receiver? What chamber do you have?

    There is no reason it shouldn't be shooting well under 1". I've rapid-fired into the .3's with that same Lilja barrel length/profile, and they are shooters.

    My super-thin Lilja with CFE/123gr AMAX shoots stupid accurate. Ragged hole at 100yds, sub-MOA for 6 rounds at 1000yds rapid-fired.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com

    Comment

    • brut28481
      Warrior
      • Mar 2016
      • 117

      #3
      Yes, received lapped, bedded and polish ramps/bolt. Lilja drop-in SAMMI chambered with Lilja head spaced bolt. I should clarify the post, I have no doubt this is a .3 MOA or better barrel. After I broke-in & sighted with factory ammo, I was getting hole on top of hole shots easily off bi-pod and bag @ 100yd. Went to 300yd on first try & hit with strelok app/factory Hornday ammo! (I was shocked). Any mediocre grouping with proper ammo is operator error. My debate is this: groups on my hand loads with CFE223 2-3 MOA @ 2600+ & ARCOMP was .3-.75 MOA @ 2400+, should I get away from CFE all together (I've seen your posts with great results) and focus on ARCOMP @2400-2500 & what is the affect of that lower velocity when going out to 1000yd compared to 2600+. (Another side note, Hornaday 123SST chronoed 2630 and shot easily .3MOA out of this barrel). Thanks!

      Comment

      • Joseph5
        Warrior
        • Oct 2012
        • 370

        #4
        Maybe I am not seeing something correctly but isn't the group size with the 32.1 grains of CFE 0.53 inches. That is nothing to complain about.

        Comment

        • brut28481
          Warrior
          • Mar 2016
          • 117

          #5
          Good point. I'm trying another load of CFE. Trimmed all the brass at first forming (Hornaday), weighed cases and projectiles and grouped together. Hopefully this will tighten up the groups.

          Comment

          • brut28481
            Warrior
            • Mar 2016
            • 117

            #6
            I tired CFE 223 again and didn't get any tighter groups. Switch to XBR8028 with much better success. Laddered from 26.6 - 28.4 with best 5 shot group @ 28.1 (see below) No magnum Grendel brass or pressure signs either! (suppressed with SLR adjustable gas block @ 8 clicks, JP Silent Capture White spring)
            Created: 04-19-2016 10:07:53 AM
            Description: 65 Grendel
            Notes 1: XBR 8020 28.1 COAL 2.250
            Notes 2: 123 Amax Supressed
            Distance to Chrono (FT): 10.00
            Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
            Bullet Weight (gr): 123.000
            Temp: N/A
            BP: N/A
            Shots
            # FPS FT-LBS PF
            5 2566 1798.60 315.62
            4 2563 1794.39 315.25
            3 2588 1829.57 318.32
            2 2554 1781.81 314.14
            1 2550 1776.24 313.65
            Average: 2564.20
            StdDev: 14.81
            Min: 2550
            Max: 2588
            Spread: 38
            True MV: 2567.11
            Shots/sec: 0.03
            Group Size (IN): 0.47

            Comment

            • terrywick4
              Warrior
              • Sep 2014
              • 181

              #7
              if you are working up loads with different powders with CFE I would stick with one powder at a time. My brothers groups goes wild ( like 3-4 inches) when he jumps from factory to CFE until he shoots 6 or 7 CFE then the groups tighten right up (sub moa). If I didn't see it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed it.

              Comment

              • Jakal
                Warrior
                • May 2014
                • 376

                #8
                Alot of guys have said that loads that shoot tight, shoot like crap after shooting CFE, then shooting those known good loads. Some additive in the powder. Try boresnaking after shooting CFE. Ever notice the white streaks in the bore groove after shooting CFE?
                ""Come taste my Shillelagh you goat-eatin bastard!""

                Comment

                • terrywick4
                  Warrior
                  • Sep 2014
                  • 181

                  #9
                  my brother's shoots great coming from CFE to factory but not going to CFE from factory until the barrel runs 6 or 7 then it is good. Going back to factory isn't his problem I have the same 18" barrel and haven't made it out to test mine.

                  Comment

                  • 1911man
                    Warrior
                    • May 2015
                    • 482

                    #10
                    I would like to confirm what the last few posts said. I have experienced the same issues they described when changing over from powder to powder and some times bullet to bullet. Now I do all of my load testing with different powders on a clean bore. For example I will clean my bore before going out to the range and shoot a 20 shot string from a load with CFE. Then when I am done testing my CFE loads I clean the bore and switch to testing my XBR loads. I found much more consistent results this way. My rifle did not really like CFE 223 as much as XBR and AR Comp. I was able to get an accurate load with it but I found tighter groups out of the other two powders.

                    Comment

                    • Jakal
                      Warrior
                      • May 2014
                      • 376

                      #11
                      My Lilja 20" shoots CFE great and AR-Comp also, decent speeds (2550). My Bartlein 20" does not like CFE, but AR-Comp is very accurate but a little slower speeds (2475) but ES/SD are very low. Got a 1 pounder of XBR, will be trying that out soon.
                      ""Come taste my Shillelagh you goat-eatin bastard!""

                      Comment

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