Grendel or 264 lbc

[Mattg]

Which chamber do you prefer or is there really any difference in performance

[bwaites]

Welcome to the boards!

The Grendel chamber has proven to be very accurate with a multitude of ammo. The 264 LBC was designed with one bullet in mind, the 123 Amax. Properly chambered, the LBC is very accurate.

However, the Grendel is now SAAMI approved, so long term, the Grendel chamber will be a better investment.

There is ONE LBC ammo builder, while there are 3 Grendel ammo manufacturers with a distinct possibility of more in the future.

[Nimrod]

My LBC is the most accurate rifle I have ever had, it shoots anything I feed it well and multiple bullet sub moa. Also the Grendel, and the 264 LBC ammo is completely interchangeable.

[YutYut]

Grendel is gaining traction. As bwaites said it is now SAAMI approved and the trademark has been released. While the LBC is indeed accurate i think it is just a grudge round made by Les Baer since it didn't work out with AA. An LBC is no doubt going to be a paper puncher. The man making the barrels is one of the best at what he does. Now that the grendel has been unleashed there is going to be a greater number of manufacturers and we will really get to see the true potential. Personally i went with the grendel even though as Nimrod stated that ammo is interchangeable.

edit: Ive never owned an LBC. almost bought one but went with the grendel just out of personal preference and the fact that in the next few years it will become a mainstream cartridge.

[Drifter]

Which chamber do you prefer or is there really any difference in performance

I haven't seen any real difference in performance (regarding both accuracy and reliability) in the two chambers.

I would accept a barrel chambered either way if it was the right quality and configuration.

[Nimrod]

My paper puncher has filled my freezer as well. Right now it has filled four deer tags.

[r3dn3ck]

264lbc seems to me to be little more than a corporate slap in the face aimed at bill. I can't see something like that (and history bears this out) as being liable to gain much traction in its own right. It's only purpose was a way to get around the trademarking of Grendel. Fact of the matter is that grendel has plenty of ammo available (despite not being available at my local gunshop) and I hadn't even heard of 264LBC until I got into 6.5grendel anyway.

It's a little like the 6.5mm Remington Magnum. The 264 win-mag came out first and while both exist, only the win-mag is thought about much today. The 6.5rem-mag was not something you could put into a 264 winmag chamber but the same rules apply. If the first one gets traction the johnny-come-lately's will be relegated to obscurity. The only fortunate bit for owners of LBC chambers is that they can shoot grendels out of them.

</opinion>

[YutYut]

264lbc seems to me to be little more than a corporate slap in the face aimed at bill. I can't see something like that (and history bears this out) as being liable to gain much traction in its own right. It's only purpose was a way to get around the trademarking of Grendel. Fact of the matter is that grendel has plenty of ammo available (despite not being available at my local gunshop) and I hadn't even heard of 264LBC until I got into 6.5grendel anyway.

It's a little like the 6.5mm Remington Magnum. The 264 win-mag came out first and while both exist, only the win-mag is thought about much today. The 6.5rem-mag was not something you could put into a 264 winmag chamber but the same rules apply. If the first one gets traction the johnny-come-lately's will be relegated to obscurity. The only fortunate bit for owners of LBC chambers is that they can shoot grendels out of them.

</opinion>

i was also surprised to find it at the cabelas and bass pro near me. The cabelas actually had a few grendel dies in stock do to rising demand.

[sgt_murf]

the .264 LBC has a .295" neck with a differant throat (1.5 degree if I recall correctly).
The Grendel has a .300" neck with a compound throat.
Outside that NO differance at all, ask Honady as they produce brass for both and the ONLY differance in the brass is the headstamp.

which one?? I have not fired the LBC chamber to see if I like it better or not. In order to fairly evaluate would some please send me a barrel and bolt to evaluate say for a year. So I can post a fair evaluation of the two

Honestly on a redo I believe I would go with the LBC/CSS chamber (actually a CSS) as the tighter neck would:
1. extend case life
2. in a personal belief (no facts supporting) would have a probablity to be more accurate

On the throat (caution this may be Kool Aid) from what I am lead to believe would be easier to load for a 1.5 degree throat versus a compound throat (may not be fact, just a personal belief, YMMV).

[LRRPF52]

My understanding is that Bill A. has been more than reasonable licensing out the Grendel to different precision rifle-makers, as long as they hold to the Grendel chamber dimensions without deviating from them in any way. He didn't even charge for it, from all that I've gathered. That wasn't good enough for many smiths, since they wanted to "improve" it. I wish I could link to all the threads about guys with .264 LBC or CSS chambers that wouldn't feed factory ammo.

If you have dies that match your chamber, and don't create an excessive neck tension or failure to feed scenario, drive-on with what ya got. If you plan on shooting factory ammo, go with a Grendel chamber.

[sgt_murf]

I wish I could link to all the threads about guys with .264 LBC or CSS chambers that wouldn't feed factory ammo.
.

LRRPF52,
you are correct in all your statements as well as those with Grendel chambers that have functioning issues as well because of improving or "fixin it to Death". The word If is a mighty big word for two letters. IF Vendors hold to spec in either chamber they all should run fine. As such this is not directed at you or anyone that has posted so far.

My comments are not a slam on Bill A, he chose to loosen the neck for reliabilty there is not a issue from me on that. Does Bill A produce a better Chamber? THAT DEPENDS on what the shooter needs are!! (yeah I know that is what you said just agreeing) MAJORORITY will be served well with the Grendel in MY OPINION

I just "Think" I would like the tighter chamber better as I prefer to punch paper is all, but without the LBC barrel in hand and experiance I cannot say for sure. What I can say is what Arne Brennen states on the chamber he uses---- a CSS LBC exculsively and the heaviest bullet is 107 grs pills without functioning issues. 90% on the shooting news that covers his events, calls the chamber a Grendel. Go Figure!
What I think is that both chambers serve a very good function (and have their place) and that neither deserves to be slammed but rather evaluated on their own merits.
Like the 5.56mm vs the .223 remington both are excellant chambers for their use.
P.S.
The gentleman in Houston also states the orginal neck Dia was .291" then to .295", then Bill chose the .300" again no slam in either way just information. Bill Waites should remember this in conversation with TX65 on beyond 556.
Oh yeah I know enough to know I don't know everything on the Calibers. If I did I would have done what LR1955 advised go to the 6mm AR Turbo on the old site before it went down.
Added the link to beyond 556 on 264LBC vs Grendel Chambers, not for arguments sake just FYI so some can make their own choices and not based on my opinion or conjecture.

http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?5280-.264-LBC-vs-6.5-G

[bwaites]

Well, I haven't been on beyond556 in MANY months, I have enough to do!

However, Bill Alexander drew the .295 neck, and the .300 neck. What he found was that there was no significant improvement in accuracy with the .295 neck, and that it did not function as reliably in semi-auto and full auto as the .300 neck.

Arne was/is a target shooter. Tight neck rifles that are single fed are quite reliable, especially with proper brass prep. Those same rifles running factory ammo may not function at all, and that applies to every caliber, not just the Grendel!

For conscientious reloaders shooting competitively, (which are a miniscule portion of the people shooting AR's in America), a tight neck chamber MIGHT be beneficial. For the vast majority of shooters, it will significantly increase failures to feed and extraction issues.

Arne is like many competitive shooters, he will run on the ragged edge to have an advantage. Tight necks, hot loads, those are all part of the game. He does it well.

BUT...99.9% of shooters will never do what he does, and factory rifles have to function reliably with factory ammo. That .295 neck wouldn't and thus was discarded. The .291 neck will work, too, but not as reliably as the .300.

Side by side, I'm willing to bet that there is so little difference in accuracy that no one guy could tell. It would take hundreds of rifles to make a statistical sampling and get reliable differences, if they exist. When the Grendel chamber is getting sub .5 MOA groups from even cheap barrels, as Hoot reports here on the board, what is the chance that there will be much accuracy difference? With the standard Grendel chamber as accurate as it is, why would anyone choose to decrease feeding and extracting reliability?

In the long run, those with .295 necks probably won't want factory ammo anyways, since if they want ultimate accuracy, they will want and need to reload. Thus the neck issue is a moot point in regards to factory ammo.

If .295 neck rifles try to run cheaper ammo, especially steel case, they may very well run into issues. The steel case is designed specifically for the .300 neck chamber.

BUT...its America, and ain't it cool that we can choose, and take the responsibility on ourselves to get the results we want?

[Bill Alexander]

The original 0.292" was a PPC rifle produced by Scott Medeshia and which required the necks to be turned to remove the doughnut from swaging up the neck. The 0.300 actually predates the 0.295" and follows a series of minor chamber experiments with conventional free bores and varying neck diameters.

The 0.300" was proposed once it was seen how the Mauser and subsequently Enfield throats worked ( at the time we were not aware of the Enfield pattern). The trick to accuracy is the centre the bullet in the bore and if the chamber is loose and the case small with a large projectile then hold the projectile not the case. The compound throat nips the bullet to centre while the larger neck diameter and length is more tolerant to misalignments.

We actually draw the 0.295" neck after the 0.300" and tested it fairly extensively. It provides no enhancement in accuracy, was picky on ammunition and was abandoned for this reason. No further development was undertaken so things like max case, min chamber were not worked out. It did not offer the possibility for future growth such as the steel case ammunition might bring.

Returning to the OP, Les Baer builds a superb rifle and while his chamber now differs, it is extremely accurate. I do not view this as anything more than a difference of opinion and given what he was trying to do makes a fair amount of sense.

Grendels did not demonstrate the problems seen with the clone chambers when the Hornady ammunition arrived, because it conformed to the given dimensions intended to fit the chamber. The chambers have not deviated from the original design at any time during production which now spans over six years.

[sgt_murf]

In order to share some humor
In a side bar conversation (PM) with Bwaites he hit on the Steel Wolf in an LBC/CSS chamber.
My response was Badddd Jeeww Jeeww (bad spelling can't spell the Candy name that I am attempting to referance)
Thats like putting crude Oil in a Porsche.

well I thought it was funny

Also last but not lest, Bill Alexander Sir, thanks for your post it was very informative and explains a great deal. And as I stated for the majority of the Shooters the Grendel Chambering should prove to be the ticket.

[Jamie45]

Ju Ju’s, AKA Jujubes or Ju Ju fruits. Popular at the movies several decades ago.

I like this forum. Two whole pages of "this vs. that" and everyone is taking great care to be polite and not start a squabble.

Well Done!