Grendel recoil vs....

[catorres1]

So curious, for those that have used the Grendel for tactical courses etc...using a standard (A2 or equivalent) muzzle device, all things being equal as much as possible, how does the recoil from a Grendel compare to a 223?

I know what the recoil numbers say, but that doesn't really help, I can't really perceive what those differences feel like.

I wonder how good the Grendel would be used in a fast paced, close range tactical course, or 3 gun course.

I know various brakes can be added, but that's a whole different discussion.

Thanks!

[VASCAR2]

I have a 16" H-Bar J&T Distributing 6.5 Grendel 1:9 twist with Phantom Flash Hider. I have a 16" H-Bar 223/5.56 with a chrome lined Bushmaster 1:9 twist barrel A-2 FH which is really close to the weight of my 6.5 Grendel. Both barrels are carbine length gas system with carbine hand guard. I also have a couple of dedicated 16" CMMG 22 LR with a M-4 style barrel. All are as close to the same size and weight.

The 22 LR has less recoil than the 223/5.56 and is quicker back on target. Shooting the 5.56 with 30 round aluminum mags and the 6.5 Grendel with 25 round SS mags the 6.5 Grendel is a little heavier rifle than the 5.56. The recoil on the 6.5 Grendel makes the 6.5 Grendel a little slower back on target compared to 5.56. With Wolf steel case ammo in the 6.5 Grendel it is maybe 5% slower than the 5.56. Shooting factory 123 grain A-Max maybe 10% more recoil and still slower back on target. The difference to me is about equal going 22 LR to 5.56 as going 5.56 to 6.5 Grendel with 120-123 grain factory ammo in the 6.5 Grendel.

I'm not at home to shoot a comparisons with the shot timer and I'm not Jerry Micluk. If your really wanting to be competitive where time is a huge factor I'd stick with 5.56. If the course involved more long range shots out to 600+ yards I'd use my 6.5 Grendel. Shooting steel with the 6.5 Grendel really makes more smack than 5.56 and is easier to see and hear hits.

Another comparison is like shooting factory 9 MM 115 grain JHP compared to +P+ 115 grain JHP in a Glock 19. The difference is perceptible and would be generally the same idea as going 5.56 M-193 to Wolf 100 grain FMJ steel cased 6.5 Grendel ammo. Stepping up to 6.5 Grendel 120-123 grain factory would be like shooting a hot 180 grain JHP in a Glock 23 compared to a 9 MM in the Glock 19.

[LR1955]

So curious, for those that have used the Grendel for tactical courses etc...using a standard (A2 or equivalent) muzzle device, all things being equal as much as possible, how does the recoil from a Grendel compare to a 223?

I know what the recoil numbers say, but that doesn't really help, I can't really perceive what those differences feel like.

I wonder how good the Grendel would be used in a fast paced, close range tactical course, or 3 gun course.

I know various brakes can be added, but that's a whole different discussion.

Thanks!

All other factors being equal, the Grendel has more recoil than the 5.56.

The difference is enough to cost time if that matters.

Also, the 5.56 has 30 round mags. The Grendel, 25 or 27. May or may not have meaning.

If the Grendel meets a major power factor, you have a distinct advantage over 5.56 since it can't meet MPF and a distinct advantage over the 7.62 due to recoil and magazine capacities. I would say that the difference in recoil between the Grendel and 7.62 is more than 5.56 and Grendel.

If all you are looking at is a close range tactical course where competitive factors and sub minute requirements for accuracy have no real meaning, look at ammunition cost as a primary consideration. In this case, 5.56 is much cheaper than Grendel.

3 Gun may need more accurate ammo but you aren't shooting at any distances where your Grendel will outshoot a 5.56. MPF may mean something if you can get a Grendel to meet MPF standards.

LR55

[catorres1]

Vascar,

Thanks for this reply, it's really helpful. I would be using the Wolf stuff for this sort of thing, so that's a good comparison. It's not for competition or anything like that, just skill building. 5% is not too much to concern with, so that would work just fine for me. Though I want an apples to apples comparison, I might be able to lower the difference further by going with a heavier buffer in the Grendel. It will be 18" mid-gas, but I do plan to run an adjustable block on it for a can, so I might be able to tune it for a little lower recoil in that sense as well, but don't know for sure if that will help.

Thanks again for your experience!

Thanks again!

[catorres1]

LR,

Yeah, I am not planning on doing this for competitive reasons. It's just taking classes. If I ever did a competition, it would be purely for the fun and training value. I could never afford the time or money to actually compete.

So yeah, it's the close range tactical course where I am focused. Price wise, I got the Wolf for 29 cents a round, IIRC. I think I can get similar 223 for around 24. I actually only have brass 223 around at the moment, it was 30 cents a round.

So as much as I will have time to do this stuff, I think the cost will be more, but not crippling.

I am more concerned about my ability to shoot fast and stay on target at relatively close range using the wolf stuff. It sounds like it will be a little harder, but nothing to concern myself about unless I am trying to shave off fractions of a second or something?

[VASCAR2]

You got me interested in testing this now. Both my 223/5.56 16" carbine and my 6.5 Grendel carbine use H carbine buffers. I have a Friend who has an 18" Brownell's 6.5 Grendel with carbine buffer and he also owns a shot timer. All our rifles have RRA NM triggers. I will see if we can do a test comparing times between 22 LR dedicated AR-15, 223/5.56 16" and 6.5 Grendel 16". We can then run the 18" 6.5 Grendel as a comparison. It'll be interesting to run 55 grain 223 ammo compared to 5.56 M-193. Then run Wolf steel compared to PPU 120 grain HP BT (I'm to tight to waste my A-Max lol). I'd probably shoot cardboard targets so I could photograph the groups.

From doing similar test years ago with mutiple shooters using single action 1911 45 ACP and Browning High Power compared to DA/SA S&W pistols and DA model 66 revolver shooting 38 special and 357. This made an intersting test but the results indicated a good shooter made more difference than switching action type or caliber. Single Action had the most potential for speed but shooters ability could over come any difference between caliber or action type. To me it boils down to trigger time and tactics will win the day over a particular handgun. I think the differences between the 5.56 and 6.5 Grendel will be apparent but depending on shooter might be negligible.

[LR1955]

LR,

Yeah, I am not planning on doing this for competitive reasons. It's just taking classes. If I ever did a competition, it would be purely for the fun and training value. I could never afford the time or money to actually compete.

So yeah, it's the close range tactical course where I am focused. Price wise, I got the Wolf for 29 cents a round, IIRC. I think I can get similar 223 for around 24. I actually only have brass 223 around at the moment, it was 30 cents a round.

So as much as I will have time to do this stuff, I think the cost will be more, but not crippling.

I am more concerned about my ability to shoot fast and stay on target at relatively close range using the wolf stuff. It sounds like it will be a little harder, but nothing to concern myself about unless I am trying to shave off fractions of a second or something?

CT1:

"Shooting fast", "staying on target", and "relatively close range" are wide open to interpretation. Since it isn't competitive and you want to shoot a Grendel, go for it.

Some suggestions for you to ensure you complete the course without much of a problem. These courses go through a bunch of ammo very quickly which means the carbine takes a beating in terms of heat and carbon. Magazines get abused too.

Bring some CLP, a bore snake, a bore brush, tooth brush, and a decent size rag. At lunch, shot gun the carbine and clean it. Check gas rings and bolt lugs. Lube the bolt thoroughly. Function check too.

Bring some gas rings and an extra bolt. These types of blast fests are super tough on the equipment and even the 5.56 shears lugs.

Make sure your magazines work. I mean load them all the way up and do some controlled pairs through the whole magazine to make sure the magazine feeds every single round and does so without any problems at all. Do not accept a magazine that works sometimes, or a magazine you have to do something special with for it to chamber and function. They must feed and function perfectly or you will not get the training value out of your course.

On the subject of magazines. Run every mag through your carbine and if any of them are hard to get into the mag well or stick in the mag well, do something to fix it. Not sure if your coaches will let you simply drop the mags on the ground or force you to put them in a drop pouch of some sort but either way, getting them in and out of the mag well is something that is critical to your timing and success.

If you can find a speed loader for the Grendel (not sure if one is made), my advice is to get one. You will be loading groups of ammo and after about the fifteenth magazine in the first hour, you do not want to mash bullets into magazines anymore.

Oh yes, use a very good dot sight and keep the irons as a backup. Aimpoint is what I would use. A very good one.

This stuff is only intended to let you focus on the course and not on equipment problems.

Have fun!

LR55

[catorres1]

You got me interested in testing this now. Both my 223/5.56 16" carbine and my 6.5 Grendel carbine use H carbine buffers. I have a Friend who has an 18" Brownell's 6.5 Grendel with carbine buffer and he also owns a shot timer. All our rifles have RRA NM triggers. I will see if we can do a test comparing times between 22 LR dedicated AR-15, 223/5.56 16" and 6.5 Grendel 16". We can then run the 18" 6.5 Grendel as a comparison. It'll be interesting to run 55 grain 223 ammo compared to 5.56 M-193. Then run Wolf steel compared to PPU 120 grain HP BT (I'm to tight to waste my A-Max lol). I'd probably shoot cardboard targets so I could photograph the groups.

From doing similar test years ago with mutiple shooters using single action 1911 45 ACP and Browning High Power compared to DA/SA S&W pistols and DA model 66 revolver shooting 38 special and 357. This made an intersting test but the results indicated a good shooter made more difference than switching action type or caliber. Single Action had the most potential for speed but shooters ability could over come any difference between caliber or action type. To me it boils down to trigger time and tactics will win the day over a particular handgun. I think the differences between the 5.56 and 6.5 Grendel will be apparent but depending on shooter might be negligible.

This sounds like an awesome test. I have searched the net for this sort of information, maybe it's there but I could not find it, so this will be uniquely valuable. Please keep us posted on your results, and thanks for doing this!

[catorres1]

CT1:

"Shooting fast", "staying on target", and "relatively close range" are wide open to interpretation. Since it isn't competitive and you want to shoot a Grendel, go for it.

Some suggestions for you to ensure you complete the course without much of a problem. These courses go through a bunch of ammo very quickly which means the carbine takes a beating in terms of heat and carbon. Magazines get abused too.

Bring some CLP, a bore snake, a bore brush, tooth brush, and a decent size rag. At lunch, shot gun the carbine and clean it. Check gas rings and bolt lugs. Lube the bolt thoroughly. Function check too.

Bring some gas rings and an extra bolt. These types of blast fests are super tough on the equipment and even the 5.56 shears lugs.

Make sure your magazines work. I mean load them all the way up and do some controlled pairs through the whole magazine to make sure the magazine feeds every single round and does so without any problems at all. Do not accept a magazine that works sometimes, or a magazine you have to do something special with for it to chamber and function. They must feed and function perfectly or you will not get the training value out of your course.

On the subject of magazines. Run every mag through your carbine and if any of them are hard to get into the mag well or stick in the mag well, do something to fix it. Not sure if your coaches will let you simply drop the mags on the ground or force you to put them in a drop pouch of some sort but either way, getting them in and out of the mag well is something that is critical to your timing and success.

If you can find a speed loader for the Grendel (not sure if one is made), my advice is to get one. You will be loading groups of ammo and after about the fifteenth magazine in the first hour, you do not want to mash bullets into magazines anymore.

Oh yes, use a very good dot sight and keep the irons as a backup. Aimpoint is what I would use. A very good one.

This stuff is only intended to let you focus on the course and not on equipment problems.

Have fun!

LR55

Thank you for these suggestions. I have done a precision rifle course, but this will be my first 'run and gun' course, so the information is very appreciated. Good thing is it's going to be a simple class, and we have it reserved for only 3 of us, so lots of attention.

Honestly, I know the 223 would be better for this sort of thing, but I don't have the money at the moment for multiple uppers, and I would like to have something more suited for the pig hunting opportunities I get. They range from point blank to as far as you could possibly see, and I don't like the 223 for the latter, nor my bolt guns for the former.

I am confident the Grendel will be just what the doc ordered in both situations for the pigs, so am hoping it works well as a tactical carbine as well.


Thanks again for the advice!

[ah1whiskey]

in the last few years that i have been running the grendel round in a 20" and a 14.5" the only thing i have noticed is that the 6.5 versions are a shade more weighty -- due to the heavy mags mostly.


recoil to me seems about the same-- a bit smoother . ammo about the same cost -- a little higher but nothing insane. been grabbing up wolf steel case for 29c and r-loading my brass.


if you want to do this in 6.5 i can't see much of a loss in the 5.56-6.5g and even if later you decide to go back to 5.56 for this application it certainly ain't a big deal to move back to 5.56.

[cory]

Well yes the Grendel has more recoil than an equal weight 5.56, but it's not nearly the recoil of a .308. However, everything is relative. Your technique, setup, and loads will make a big difference here. Using the wolf 100gr, with good technique, you may not even notice a difference between your Grendel and 5.56. I can shoot my ARs all day without recoil fatigue setting in, I couldn't do that with an AR10.

In the Corps I learned something that I have lived by since and it has made all the difference. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

I run heavy buffers in all my ARs. They don't cycle as quickly as a light little 3 gun upper, but it is smoother and allows me to get back on target quicker. I also run the thicker magpul butt pads on my Grendel ARs. It allows more of the force of recoil to be adsorbed straight back into my shoulder before the muzzle is forced to rise. It certainly doesn't eliminate muzzle rise, but it does help.

I've never ran anything but a flash hider or suppressor. I've never even considered a brake. I'd highly advice against a brake, if for no other reason, because of your intentions to use your AR inside. The back blast from the AR will be bad enough without a brake, it will beat you up a pretty good using a brake, Not to mention anyone behind you.

[Confederate]

I have used my Grendel in several carbine courses as participant and instructor as well as 3 Gun matches. It is not set up strictly as a competition carbine, like my daughters 5.56 is for 3 Gun, but it does in fact do everything very well. Pig & deer hunting, carbine courses and 3 Gun. The times I have needed the distance advantage that the Grendel offers over 5.56 has only been on maybe two occasions. I however am not using it to be in magazines or on tv or be ranked in the top 10 of the world. I use it for training that has a much broader application than my bolt guns or my 5.56 AR's.

[catorres1]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the input and insight. It really is very valuable. As I have a bunch of Grendel stuff sitting here already, and based on the experiences you guys have shared, it looks like continuing in this direction is probably a good way to go for me, as I do want to put it into more service than just tac classes etc.

Got a few other build questions, but I'll post those as separate questions.

Thanks again!

[VASCAR2]

This sounds like an awesome test. I have searched the net for this sort of information, maybe it's there but I could not find it, so this will be uniquely valuable. Please keep us posted on your results, and thanks for doing this!

I completed part of the testing I mentioned in the previous post. I didn't have second shooter and chose to only shoot one load in the 223 and 6.5 Grendel today. Here is a link to my test.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?12193-6.5-Grendel-vs-5.56&p=133812#post133812