600 Yds & Beyond

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  • brut28481
    Warrior
    • Mar 2016
    • 117

    600 Yds & Beyond

    I have been continuing on my quest for 1,000 Yds with by 23" Lilja 6.5 Grendel. This being my first precision/long range set-up, I am learning as I go. With that, I have spent a considerable amount of time reloading, chronoing & grouping @ 100yds. I feel very confident in the accuracy of my rig (1/3 MOA or better @ 100yds 5-shots) & my chrono data. Still working on perfecting the craft of the trigger pull. All that being said, it has been somewhat easy to hit steel out to 600yds with my 123-Amax chrono data, Strelokpro app. & 4-16 Vortex PST. 800 yds, not so. I have read a lot of post on here about the challenges past 600. Where I am shooting doesn't have berms (in FL, flat, humid, hot) so not 100% sure what is going on. I have been using different different G1 BCs from Litz/Hornaday & G7 BC from Litz which all show variations in bullet drop. In summary, why does the challenge become so much more after 600 yds? Thanks!
  • 37L1
    Warrior
    • Jan 2015
    • 273

    #2
    The drop is more, speed is less and external factors like wind have a bigger effect.

    Comment

    • Fredman
      Warrior
      • Sep 2014
      • 311

      #3
      I feel your pain. I also shoot in a long flat meadow. It's hard to see the bullet impact in two feet of grass. I ended up putting up a big piece of cardboard to see exactly where I was hitting out to 1000. Make your own data, test it on different days, temps, humidity. Then modify a program to closely match your data.
      Once your on, then you can figure out the blasted wind!

      Comment

      • Slappy
        Warrior
        • Feb 2014
        • 711

        #4
        Air is so heavy along the coast not like the mountain air that is fo sure. Sounds like you will get it, practice practice practice. If memory serves me correctly there is one or two on here in the lite air that have done it with the 16 inch barrel?? BANG BANG!!

        Comment

        • lrgrendel
          Warrior
          • Jul 2013
          • 662

          #5
          Velocity is "King"....
          How fast have you got your 123 Amax going?

          As mentioned, 4000' or 5000' elevation with nice dry air is one thing.
          But being in Florida at sea level with humidity is another.

          I live in Orlando. Experienced exact same thing BUT again, velocity rules...

          Comment

          • PredatorDown
            Warrior
            • Jun 2014
            • 239

            #6
            I've come to the conclusion that the advertised G1 BC of .510 for the 123gr Amax is only for higher velocities. Once it gets to a certain velocity, it the BC actually changes on the G1 drag curve models. That's why Sierra bullets will put out a stepped G1 BC on most, if not all of their bullets for different velocities. My data with the 123gr Amax matches pretty close to around the 800 or so yard mark, but then progressively gets further and further off the farther I push it. At 1k, it's usually 1.5-2 minutes low. By the time it's out to a mile, it's around 15 minutes low.

            This is where the advantage of the G7 drag curve comes into play. It is consistent across the entire velocity spectrum. I only wish Litz would put out a G7 curve for the 123gr Amax.

            Here's an example of the Sierra stepped G1 BC calculations:

            Comment

            • brut28481
              Warrior
              • Mar 2016
              • 117

              #7
              I'm pushing my 8208 XBR Load, 123 A-Max out at 2,545. I have some 107 SMK loads worked up that I have going 2,695-2,750 I might try those out to 1,000yd. I did put some 24x36 paper up below my steel that I got a few hits on as I was trying different holdovers. Just didn't keep track of which hold overs hit so not sure what is going on!

              Ingrendel- have you shot at Manatee Gun Club's 1,000 yd range? If so, do you know if they have berms?

              Predator Down - I have seen some debate on here regarding Litz's G7 drag curve for the 123 A-max. Consensus I have gathered is around .239, did that number correspond when you went out to a mile?

              Comment

              • majohnson
                Unwashed
                • Apr 2016
                • 21

                #8
                6.5 to a 1000

                To reach a 1000yds your much better off pushing 123gr bullets, pushing then as fast as you can safely. Try Lapua or Nosler see if you get more FPS out them or the Amax. I hit 600yds and 1000yds the 1st day out shooting Hornady factory loads. Since then I have done it using reloads with Amax and Nosler bullets. Try CFE and see if you get more FPS. Don't worry about giving up a little accuracy for some extra speed. A very man that started shooting when he went into the military several decades ago.

                Keeping that bullet supersonic is important. Like others mentioned once you get past 600 environmental conditions being having more of an effect on the bullet. Good luck.

                Comment

                • PredatorDown
                  Warrior
                  • Jun 2014
                  • 239

                  #9
                  Originally posted by majohnson View Post
                  To reach a 1000yds your much better off pushing 123gr bullets, pushing then as fast as you can safely. Try Lapua or Nosler see if you get more FPS out them or the Amax. I hit 600yds and 1000yds the 1st day out shooting Hornady factory loads. Since then I have done it using reloads with Amax and Nosler bullets. Try CFE and see if you get more FPS. Don't worry about giving up a little accuracy for some extra speed. A very man that started shooting when he went into the military several decades ago.

                  Keeping that bullet supersonic is important. Like others mentioned once you get past 600 environmental conditions being having more of an effect on the bullet. Good luck.
                  Going off my own personal experience, I have to respectfully disagree. I have my accuracy load with 123gr amax at a mere 2530fps. If I pushed it to the ragged edge of attainable speed with my 22" barrel at 2650, that only nets me a 3MOA advantage at 1000 yards. If I can consistently group MOA at 1000 yards, and quite often shoot right around MOA to 1400, and even stretch it to a mile with only going 2530, what else do I really have to gain?

                  Comment

                  • majohnson
                    Unwashed
                    • Apr 2016
                    • 21

                    #10
                    Originally posted by PredatorDown View Post
                    Going off my own personal experience, I have to respectfully disagree. I have my accuracy load with 123gr amax at a mere 2530fps. If I pushed it to the ragged edge of attainable speed with my 22" barrel at 2650, that only nets me a 3MOA advantage at 1000 yards. If I can consistently group MOA at 1000 yards, and quite often shoot right around MOA to 1400, and even stretch it to a mile with only going 2530, what else do I really have to gain?
                    I don't mind, it a general rule and all barrel shoot differently. Most barrels will have 3 different accurate nods. How much effort did you spend trying to get that load to shoot better. Accuracy can change with your next pound of powder, or a new lot of bullets. There are several articles written about your best accuracy coming from close to max loads. I am curious what yardage does your load go transonic? My guess is about 1200 yards.
                    Last edited by majohnson; 06-19-2016, 04:43 AM.

                    Comment

                    • PredatorDown
                      Warrior
                      • Jun 2014
                      • 239

                      #11
                      Originally posted by majohnson View Post
                      I don't mind, it a general rule and all barrel shoot differently. Most barrels will have 3 different accurate nods. How much effort did you spend trying to get that load to shoot better. Accuracy can change with your next pound of powder, or a new lot of bullets. There are several articles written about your best accuracy coming from close to max loads. I am curious what yardage does your load go transonic? My guess is about 1200 yards.
                      I spent a lot of time playing around with different powders/charges/seating depths before I chose the one I'm using. Most loads shot between .75-1.25", with my pet load consistently shooting 5/8". I worked up to max loads with BLC2, CFE223, and AR-Comp and my groups seemed to fall apart when I got too high. Either way, I won't complain with the performance of the round.

                      I should be going transonic somewhere around the 1150-1200 yard mark depending on the elevation I'm shooting at (anywhere from 4k'-7k'), but it still appears to remain stable all the way out to a mile. Looking at all of the hits on steel, every impact is still centered and concentric. Whereas I've had a buddy shooting a DT SRS in 6.5 Creedmoor with 129gr Prime ammo and his has obvious signs of yaw at 1400 yards. He was pretty pissed considering it's in a rifle system that's right around the $5k mark without optics haha

                      Comment

                      • LRRPF52
                        Super Moderator
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 8569

                        #12
                        I think tighter twist rate plays a more important role in stability at ranges past 1000yds.

                        I shouldn't have predictable impacts at 1200yds from a 16" barrel, but I have. Twist is 1/7.5" on that pipe.
                        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                        www.AR15buildbox.com

                        Comment

                        • Regal
                          Unwashed
                          • Jul 2017
                          • 1

                          #13
                          Hey guys,
                          I know this post is a bit older, but figured I'd breathe some life back into it - especially with how popular long-range stuff is getting.

                          So over the last 16 months, my 6.5 Grendel has gotten a work-out. With an Odin works 20" barrel and a mix of Hornady Black & my personal handloads (123 gr A-max or ELD / 30 gr BL-C(2) / 2.255" COAL), yardages are 400 - 1200.

                          I have had great luck with the little 6.5, but have noticed that practical yardage really runs out around 900 yards. Can you get it farther, yes - but only if conditions are favorable.

                          I have pictures of freshly painted targets with completely sideways hits at 930 yards. Several 1,000 yard targets with all oblong holes - seriously 17 inch group at 1,000 yards and every round with yaw. She just runs out of juice, at least where I shoot.

                          Comment

                          • Bigs28
                            Chieftain
                            • Feb 2016
                            • 1786

                            #14
                            What elevation are you at?

                            Comment

                            • biodsl
                              Chieftain
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 1714

                              #15
                              According to Ballistic AE, a 123 gr A-Max running between 2480 and 2580 fps stays supersonic past 1,000 yards (at sea level and standard conditions), but enters trans-sonic at around 800 and 850 yards respectively. This could be the culprit. I've read that as some bullets go below 1.2 mach their flight can destabilize and become unpredictable.
                              Paul Peloquin

                              Did government credibility die of Covid or with Covid?

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