264LBC vs 6.5 Grendel

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  • realtreehunter
    Bloodstained
    • Feb 2016
    • 36

    264LBC vs 6.5 Grendel

    Whats up between these two? I was looking at BHW's website and see all these barrels that are "264L (6.5 Grendel)" From what I am reading you can shoot either 264 LBC ammo and 6.5 Grendel ammo in these barrels but you cannot shoot 264 LBC in a Grendel chamber. I read that only an angle in the chamber is different, Which would be better for a build? I have been interested in a BHW barrel for some time but don't understand the chamber issue, seems to me that a 6.5 Grendel would shoot better out of a Grendel chamber than out of a LBC chamber.

    Will someone please explain?
  • biodsl
    Chieftain
    • Aug 2011
    • 1714

    #2
    You could start here: http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...264lbc+history

    There's more on this forum on the subject than you'd likely ever want to read. The search function is your friend.
    Paul Peloquin

    Did government credibility die of Covid or with Covid?

    Comment

    • realtreehunter
      Bloodstained
      • Feb 2016
      • 36

      #3
      Thank You, that was a good read. Admittedly I did not think to try the search function, I was on the BHW site and the thought occurred and I thought I would just ask the forum. The search function never even crossed my mind.

      Comment

      • bwaites
        Moderator
        • Mar 2011
        • 4445

        #4
        There are LOTS more threads on the pros/cons of the variant chambers, but they do require some searching. Someday I'll have the time to do a comprehensive writeup, like I did for the bolt.

        Comment

        • JASmith
          Chieftain
          • Sep 2014
          • 1620

          #5
          There is a chapter in the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook that is dedicated to chambers and variants, including the LBC.

          You can get them at AR15 Build Box and Alexander Arms
          shootersnotes.com

          "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
          -- Author Unknown

          "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

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          • Clays23
            Warrior
            • Nov 2015
            • 135

            #6
            My spinta precison barrel is 264 lbc but I've only shot grendel ammo out of it. Wolf fmj hornady a max and sst all three shoot very well out it. You should check them out before you make your purchase you can't beat them for the price
            Joshua 1:9

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            • realtreehunter
              Bloodstained
              • Feb 2016
              • 36

              #7
              thanks for the info guys, at this point BHW's reputation is the only thing currently making me want the LBC. Even at that though they are using the spec one bolt with the shorter headspace.
              I will check into the Spinta though.

              Comment

              • terrywick4
                Warrior
                • Sep 2014
                • 181

                #8
                You can call them and request a type 2 bolt head spacing.

                Originally posted by realtreehunter View Post
                thanks for the info guys, at this point BHW's reputation is the only thing currently making me want the LBC. Even at that though they are using the spec one bolt with the shorter headspace.
                I will check into the Spinta though.

                Comment

                • LR1955
                  Super Moderator
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 3355

                  #9
                  Originally posted by realtreehunter View Post
                  thanks for the info guys, at this point BHW's reputation is the only thing currently making me want the LBC. Even at that though they are using the spec one bolt with the shorter headspace.
                  I will check into the Spinta though.
                  RTH:

                  The headspace of the .264 LBC and 6.5 Grendel are identical. The .264 LBC chamber is reamed out a bit more, if that is the right technical term. The headspace is the same between the two.

                  The only difference is the throat design. The Grendel uses a compound throat and the LBC a conventional tapered throat.

                  Guys have reported issues with factory loads functioning in one or the other but I bet most of the problem was with manufacturing of the chamber over how the factory loaded the ammo.

                  LR55

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                  • realtreehunter
                    Bloodstained
                    • Feb 2016
                    • 36

                    #10
                    I thought the Grendel had the more open throat? I think I read the Grendel had a .300 Throat and the LBC had a .295 throat. I'm not into reloading yet and I "think" I know what is meant by the throat but willing to admit being wrong.

                    I read some about the ammo to from out of spec chambers to Hornady's bulged cases. It just seems that if the Grendel has slight changes to make it more reliable in any way with no loss in accuracy, I don't understand the reasoning for going with the LBC, then I think of the brass life for when I do start reloading, and the positives I've read about tight chambers and .....

                    I thought choosing parts for my blackout build was hard, dang, I cant even decide which chamber I want on this build. "Between the LBC and Grendel that is"

                    Comment

                    • schrödinger's cat
                      Bloodstained
                      • Dec 2015
                      • 84

                      #11
                      I agree with 1955, many people like the Grendel because it's "original" and I understand that, but from reading lots of posts on this forum and others it seems like both chamberings show the genius of the caliber and there is no noticeable difference between them. The BHW barrel for it's price has shown itself to shoot particularly well, and so has PF's criterion barrel.

                      Comment

                      • LR1955
                        Super Moderator
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 3355

                        #12
                        Originally posted by realtreehunter View Post
                        I thought the Grendel had the more open throat? I think I read the Grendel had a .300 Throat and the LBC had a .295 throat. I'm not into reloading yet and I "think" I know what is meant by the throat but willing to admit being wrong.

                        I read some about the ammo to from out of spec chambers to Hornady's bulged cases. It just seems that if the Grendel has slight changes to make it more reliable in any way with no loss in accuracy, I don't understand the reasoning for going with the LBC, then I think of the brass life for when I do start reloading, and the positives I've read about tight chambers and .....

                        I thought choosing parts for my blackout build was hard, dang, I cant even decide which chamber I want on this build. "Between the LBC and Grendel that is"
                        RTH:

                        You are talking neck diameter, not headspace. The final Grendel chamber design utilized a .300 neck diameter because the cartridge was intended for service use. Some precision shooters think that a tighter neck gives better precision so you see LB using a .295 diameter neck. The difference between the two for practical purposes lies in how the throats were designed. Headspace is identical if the barrels were chambered to spec. If I handed you two rifles, one a LBC barrel and one a Grendel, and five different types of factory loads, I bet you would not notice a difference in function or performance between the two. And if I handed you any of the commercial sizing dies for the Grendel and you used them properly to size down the brass you just fired, that again you would not notice a difference between the two barrels in ease of chambering and extraction of your sized brass.

                        I don't assume chambers are out of spec if cases get bulged. Far from it. I view bulged cases to be more likely caused by pressure spikes, excessive pressure, or bad timing because of poorly thought out gas systems.

                        LR55

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                        • JASmith
                          Chieftain
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 1620

                          #13
                          The .300 diameter is the neck diameter.

                          The SAAMI Grendel has a compound throat starting at just over the bullet diameter at the end of the neck at 0.5 deg and transitioning to 1.5 degrees about halfway down the length of the throat.
                          shootersnotes.com

                          "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
                          -- Author Unknown

                          "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

                          Comment

                          • bwaites
                            Moderator
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 4445

                            #14
                            Let's see if I can shed a little clarity (or maybe make it muddier!) The cartridge neck surrounds the bullet. It's outside diameter is larger than the bullet, obviously, so the reamer makes space for it. Depending on the brass used, the loaded neck may be anywhere from .289-.292 +/- .001. Since the Grendel was designed for use in semiauto platforms, various neck diameters were tried and Bill Alexander settled on .300 as providing optimum function in the rifle. This would allow room if the gun got dirty or if steel case ammo was used. However, it does allow the brass to stretch quite a bit, which over time MAY lead to early fatigue. Some precision shooters believe that tighter necks are inherently more accurate, so they specify tighter reamers. This makes sense, because the closer to the center of the bore the bullet is, the more likely it will be accurate. The area just in front of the case neck is called the free bore, because the bullet is barely in contact, if at all, it is "free". At the front of this area is the "throat" or leade. This area is a taper to the final bore of the barrel. Traditionally, this area has had a 1.5 (or thereabouts) degree taper to allow the bullet to leave the case and then smoothly engage the rifling. When exploring the bullet options for the Grendel, Bill Alexander found that some bullets shot incredibly well, but that others did not shoot well at all with a traditional throat. This bothered him, because the .264 bore has Bullets available from around 80 grains or so all the way up to 160 grains. He wanted the cartridge to shoot as well as possible for as many bullets as possible. In his design process, he talked to lots of people, and along the way he discovered that the Enfield and another rifle had used a "compound" throat. This meant that 2 different angles were used to guide the bullet into the bore. Bill found that this effectively centered the bullets and improved accuracy across the board, meaning that all those different weight bullets could be quite accurate. At one point I shot EVERY available factory load into 5 shot 1 MOA groups, proving, at least to myself, that he was correct.

                            I should point out that if you decide exactly what bullet you are going to use, you can then have your chamber reamed to opitimize for that bullet, (I do this with my F Class 7mm WSM, using 180 Berger Hybrids), but if you have variety of different uses for your rifle, (varmints, coyotes, deer, elk for instance) you may want to use different bullets for each. Thus having a "do it all" throat may make the most sense for you.

                            The LBC chamber was designed for use with the 123 Sierra and AMAX by Les Baer, who had Black Hills load ammo for his rifles. It may shoot other bullets accurately as well, as found by various different shooters, but it was designed with those two bullets in mind. It has a .295 neck, and a traditional throat. Les Baer suscribes to the "tight neck" helps center the bullet theorem.

                            That leaves the issue of brass life. Many of us running SAAMI throat rifles have 20+ loadings on our Lapua brass, without annealing. While the tighter necks do, in theory, create less brass work and movement, it hasn't seemed to be a big issue with the Grendel.

                            So, if you want a throat that has been proven to be less finicky with the many different bullet weights available in the Grendel caliber, the SAAMI chamber makes sense.

                            Comment

                            • NugginFutz
                              Chieftain
                              • Aug 2013
                              • 2622

                              #15
                              If I had to characterize the principle difference between the SAAMI 6.5 Grendel and the .265 LBC, I would do so with one word... Pickier.

                              From what I've seen, the SAAMI chamber typically will shoot a wide variety of bullet weights and profiles with relative ease. This is due primarily to the chamber's compound throat, which tends to align the longer profile bullets to the bore without having to seat them into the lands.

                              On the other hand, it is my experience, and that of others who've loaded for the 264 LBC, that they can be picky little things about what they will shoot well.

                              I have two BHW 264 LBC's. Their chambers are, for all intents and purposes, identical - each with the .136" bolt depth and each with the same max COAL (2.385" with the 123 A-Max). The 22" Bull Barrel likes the heavier pill: 120 SMK, and 123 A-Max and SST, with the SST being slightly less accurate. It absolutely refuses to turn in a group under 1 MOA with anything lighter than 100 grains, though. Many hours of load development were invested to come to this conclusion.

                              The 18" Standard profile barrel has only shot one projectile well, so far - the 85 Sierra HP. It does NOT like the heavier projectiles. When I went heavier, the groups would open. The 95 V-Max is marginal at 1 MOA, and the venerable 120 SMK only delivers 1.5 MOA. 123 A-Max? Worse than the 120 SMK. Again, many hours spent on load development.

                              So, while I have an accuracy load for both, they are miles apart, in terms of common preferences. I have invested 1000+ rounds in my search for other loads these barrels may shoot, but I've resigned myself to the reality that it is not to be. I'm not disappointed in the .264 LBC, though. I've been able to develop an accurate load for each weapon, suited to its intended purpose. One is a long range, bipod-riding toy, while the other is my light-weight varmint killer.

                              The one thing I note about these barrels is that both would tend to shoot better as the seating approached max COAL. (No surprise there, eh?) This often would require hand fed rounds, or seating a bullet out further than I would feel comfortable with. This is where I believe the SAAMI chamber has a distinct advantage. It allows you to load within Magazine Length and still benefit from the centering aspects of the compound throat. In essence, the compound throat moves the "jump" in closer than a standard chamber can afford.


                              YMMV.


                              ETA: bwaites is clearly the faster typist.
                              Last edited by NugginFutz; 07-17-2016, 06:02 PM. Reason: bwaites beat me to it!!
                              If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

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