Titanium carrier

[realtreehunter]

What is the Horde's thoughts on titanium carriers? Most of what I have read is people using full weight buffers and carriers, matter of fact when using the search function looking for titanium carrier or BCG I couldn't find a post discussing one. I am considering using a full titanium carrier with an AGB on an 18"/20" barrel from PF. I think I read somewhere else that I would need a buffer with no weights, would a JP buffer with a light spring work?

Thanks in advance.

[VASCAR2]

Using the Google 6.5 Grendel search I found a couple threads about Titanium bolt carriers, primarily for light weight builds. Check ou this thread.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?8919-Superlite-Grendel-Build-(spend-my-money!)/page8

Here is the 6.5 Grendel customgoogle search link.

https://cse.google.com/cse/home?cx=016368947416500061353:paqd_0xcu1o&hl=en

[Slappy]

They come with 5 springs if you order the package deal. I and from what I have read and seen most use the middle spring and that would leave you with 2 liter ones to pick from. If I was you I would exhaust all efforts and try to find someone that has a similar set up and bend their ear to find out what worked for them. I looked into them for the couple of barrels I have coming from the group buy but decided to stick with what I know and has worked before. Not much help?? BANG BANG!!

[realtreehunter]

Using the Google 6.5 Grendel search I found a couple threads about Titanium bolt carriers, primarily for light weight builds. Check ou this thread.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?8919-Superlite-Grendel-Build-(spend-my-money!)/page8

Here is the 6.5 Grendel customgoogle search link.


https://cse.google.com/cse/home?cx=0...d_0xcu1o&hl=en

I have read that thread, actually I am the last post on that thread and actually seen toolcraft bolts on sale for the first time. I live about 20 minutes from their shop and about 35 minutes from cryptic coatings, also mentioned in that thread. After 12 and a half pages Variable hasn't given any range reports or function reports.

Did not know about that particular search, I was just using the one below and to the right of the banner.

[realtreehunter]

They come with 5 springs if you order the package deal. I and from what I have read and seen most use the middle spring and that would leave you with 2 liter ones to pick from. If I was you I would exhaust all efforts and try to find someone that has a similar set up and bend their ear to find out what worked for them. I looked into them for the couple of barrels I have coming from the group buy but decided to stick with what I know and has worked before. Not much help?? BANG BANG!!

Ya know, I wouldn't mind going with the standard parts, Lord knows it would save cash for ammo, but I read threads about fast running smooth cycling, and lower recoil due to the lower reciprocating weight of the lighter BCG and it piques my curiosity. It's just one of those "I wanna see!" type things. I'm even planning on a muzzle break which even I think is silly on an AR15 because any round that will fit the platform is just to small for very much recoil, IMO. I wanna see what difference it will make, I wanna try it. I don't want to spend that cash on parts and things not work together properly.

[DRandi]

Perhaps I can help. First off rifle specs that pertain to the question:

Blackhole Weaponry 22" .264 LBC rifle length gas system
SLR titanium adjustable gas block
Lewis Machine and Tool 7.62x39 bolt.
Vseven weapon system titanium firing pin
JL Billet titanium bolt carrier http://www.jlbillet.com/5-56-billet-...arrier-groups/ You can buy just the carrier if you call them.
POF roller cam pin
JP Rifles silent capture buffer assembly, steel weights, #2 spring, (second softest) white painted end I think.
Ammunition: hand loaded 107 SMK IMR 8208 Lapua brass, CCI 41 primer

My reason/expectations for the titanium parts.

1.To make the rifle lighter so mass could be added where it matters, barrel, optics.
2. Reduce reciprocating impulse to track shots better.
3. Titanium firing pin, to reduce possibility of a slam fire with soft primers and bonus of pinch faster lock time. Yes it's a milli seconds but combined with other parts in the system, Geissele national match DMR every bit helps.

A adjustable gas block is mandatory if using a titanium carrier. You have to balance the system out. Yes you can run a titanium carrier as is but your carrier velocity will be very very fast. Fast to the point of if the rifle was setup perfectly before, you will experience failure to feed or failure to lock back on the last round. The carrier can cycle fast enough to out run the mag and bolt catch. I also consider a adjustable buffer system mandatory. Whats the point of a super light carrier just to try and balance it out with a heavy buffer, you just put the weight back in a different spot.

Buffer springs can go two ways. A light spring reduces the reciprocating impulse on closing, but also makes it less tolerant of fouling and rounds out of tolerance. A heavy spring to increase the momentum and make up for the decreased mass. To strong and it will be excessively slamming the carrier forward and aggravate bolt bounce back. So you will have to spend some time in this area to tune for a proper balance.

Downside:
More sensitive to load changes. It will tolerate a plus/minus powder swing, how much will depend on your combination. Mine will tolerate a 1 grain load change, but ejection pattern suffers. As a precaution I keep my gas block allen key in the spare compartment of my grip. I haven't tested various factory loads to see if cycle rate is affected as I only hand load for this rifle.


I don't have lots of rounds on the carrier yet to attest to long term durability. It is Ion bond DLC coated and has been flawless so far. Clean up is easier than my nickle boron and so far not a mark after 350 rounds. Some of which were a little abusive.

The above combination shoots like a a dream. Plies brass neatly a 3:00 and about three-four feet away while lying out prone, same as my regular 5.56. If you didn't know any better you would think you were shooting a .223 bolt gun by the feel. To quote my buddy, this thing puffs bunny farts!


David

[realtreehunter]

Perhaps I can help. First off rifle specs that pertain to the question:

Blackhole Weaponry 22" .264 LBC rifle length gas system
SLR titanium adjustable gas block
Lewis Machine and Tool 7.62x39 bolt.
Vseven weapon system titanium firing pin
JL Billet titanium bolt carrier http://www.jlbillet.com/5-56-billet-...arrier-groups/ You can buy just the carrier if you call them.
POF roller cam pin
JP Rifles silent capture buffer assembly, steel weights, #2 spring, (second softest) white painted end I think.
Ammunition: hand loaded 107 SMK IMR 8208 Lapua brass, CCI 41 primer

My reason/expectations for the titanium parts.

1.To make the rifle lighter so mass could be added where it matters, barrel, optics.
2. Reduce reciprocating impulse to track shots better.
3. Titanium firing pin, to reduce possibility of a slam fire with soft primers and bonus of pinch faster lock time. Yes it's a milli seconds but combined with other parts in the system, Geissele national match DMR every bit helps.

A adjustable gas block is mandatory if using a titanium carrier. You have to balance the system out. Yes you can run a titanium carrier as is but your carrier velocity will be very very fast. Fast to the point of if the rifle was setup perfectly before, you will experience failure to feed or failure to lock back on the last round. The carrier can cycle fast enough to out run the mag and bolt catch. I also consider a adjustable buffer system mandatory. Whats the point of a super light carrier just to try and balance it out with a heavy buffer, you just put the weight back in a different spot.

Buffer springs can go two ways. A light spring reduces the reciprocating impulse on closing, but also makes it less tolerant of fouling and rounds out of tolerance. A heavy spring to increase the momentum and make up for the decreased mass. To strong and it will be excessively slamming the carrier forward and aggravate bolt bounce back. So you will have to spend some time in this area to tune for a proper balance.

Downside:
More sensitive to load changes. It will tolerate a plus/minus powder swing, how much will depend on your combination. Mine will tolerate a 1 grain load change, but ejection pattern suffers. As a precaution I keep my gas block allen key in the spare compartment of my grip. I haven't tested various factory loads to see if cycle rate is affected as I only hand load for this rifle.


I don't have lots of rounds on the carrier yet to attest to long term durability. It is Ion bond DLC coated and has been flawless so far. Clean up is easier than my nickle boron and so far not a mark after 350 rounds. Some of which were a little abusive.

The above combination shoots like a a dream. Plies brass neatly a 3:00 and about three-four feet away while lying out prone, same as my regular 5.56. If you didn't know any better you would think you were shooting a .223 bolt gun by the feel. To quote my buddy, this thing puffs bunny farts!


David

Thanks for responding, you have almost the exact setup I want, the difference being that I want the Geissele hi speed national match. When you say you have about a 1grain tolerance, do you start getting FTF or stop getting BHO if you change by more than 1 grain of powder? Or is it that beyond that 1 grain your brass pattern changes?

I'm glad to hear it runs so well, I haven't made up my mind for sure to go that route because it is very expensive but I would hate to try it and be unsatisfied. sounds like I most likely wouldn't.

[DRandi]

The only reason I see not to do it is life threatening situation where supplies become limited and living conditions are compromised. So if TEOTWAWKI ever happens, just swap out to a spare full mass carrier and open up the gas block a few clicks. Then go spread freedom across the land. Only difference between my trigger and the one you want is the springs. Geissele will sell the other springs and it's a drop in to change.

The 1 grain tolerance is for 100 percent function. Beyond that is when it starts to get iffy. Example: If I setup the rifle tune at 29.5 grains of IMR 8608 for perfect 3'o clock ejection. I will get a 4:30ish, (under gas) ejection pattern at 29.0 grains of powder. Like wise if I go to 30.5 grains I get a over gas 2'o clock pattern. Still 100 percent functional, but that's the limit. Even severely over gassed it will still pick up the next round. It just out runs the mag hold open. I usually catches on the front of the carrier instead of the bolt face.

If you want to desensitize it more, you can swap the steel buffer weights in the JP buffer to the tungsten ones. That adds about 1oz to the reciprocating assembly I think, (don't have my kit in front of me) or about the same as a H2 carbine buffer. Then play with springs at that range. I think the way JP sets it up initially unless you get the builders kit, is steel weights and #2 spring, white painted end. This is suppose to be the equivalent of the A2 rifle setup. It really is very easy to tune

Regardless on what parts you do decided to go with. Seal the gas tube and gas block with lock-tite. It makes the system less sensitive and run cleaner.

David

[realtreehunter]

The only reason I see not to do it is life threatening situation where supplies become limited and living conditions are compromised. So if TEOTWAWKI ever happens, just swap out to a spare full mass carrier and open up the gas block a few clicks. Then go spread freedom across the land. Only difference between my trigger and the one you want is the springs. Geissele will sell the other springs and it's a drop in to change.

The 1 grain tolerance is for 100 percent function. Beyond that is when it starts to get iffy. Example: If I setup the rifle tune at 29.5 grains of IMR 8608 for perfect 3'o clock ejection. I will get a 4:30ish, (under gas) ejection pattern at 29.0 grains of powder. Like wise if I go to 30.5 grains I get a over gas 2'o clock pattern. Still 100 percent functional, but that's the limit. Even severely over gassed it will still pick up the next round. It just out runs the mag hold open. I usually catches on the front of the carrier instead of the bolt face.

If you want to desensitize it more, you can swap the steel buffer weights in the JP buffer to the tungsten ones. That adds about 1oz to the reciprocating assembly I think, (don't have my kit in front of me) or about the same as a H2 carbine buffer. Then play with springs at that range. I think the way JP sets it up initially unless you get the builders kit, is steel weights and #2 spring, white painted end. This is suppose to be the equivalent of the A2 rifle setup. It really is very easy to tune

Regardless on what parts you do decided to go with. Seal the gas tube and gas block with lock-tite. It makes the system less sensitive and run cleaner.

David

Thanks again for replying, even more interesting info. I have a Geissele DMR in a different Rifle at present, I didn't know the springs were the only difference.

[Rickc]

Perhaps I can help. First off rifle specs that pertain to the question:

Blackhole Weaponry 22" .264 LBC rifle length gas system
SLR titanium adjustable gas block
Lewis Machine and Tool 7.62x39 bolt.
Vseven weapon system titanium firing pin
JL Billet titanium bolt carrier http://www.jlbillet.com/5-56-billet-...arrier-groups/ You can buy just the carrier if you call them.
POF roller cam pin
JP Rifles silent capture buffer assembly, steel weights, #2 spring, (second softest) white painted end I think.
Ammunition: hand loaded 107 SMK IMR 8208 Lapua brass, CCI 41 primer

My reason/expectations for the titanium parts.

1.To make the rifle lighter so mass could be added where it matters, barrel, optics.
2. Reduce reciprocating impulse to track shots better.
3. Titanium firing pin, to reduce possibility of a slam fire with soft primers and bonus of pinch faster lock time. Yes it's a milli seconds but combined with other parts in the system, Geissele national match DMR every bit helps.

A adjustable gas block is mandatory if using a titanium carrier. You have to balance the system out. Yes you can run a titanium carrier as is but your carrier velocity will be very very fast. Fast to the point of if the rifle was setup perfectly before, you will experience failure to feed or failure to lock back on the last round. The carrier can cycle fast enough to out run the mag and bolt catch. I also consider a adjustable buffer system mandatory. Whats the point of a super light carrier just to try and balance it out with a heavy buffer, you just put the weight back in a different spot.

Buffer springs can go two ways. A light spring reduces the reciprocating impulse on closing, but also makes it less tolerant of fouling and rounds out of tolerance. A heavy spring to increase the momentum and make up for the decreased mass. To strong and it will be excessively slamming the carrier forward and aggravate bolt bounce back. So you will have to spend some time in this area to tune for a proper balance.

Downside:
More sensitive to load changes. It will tolerate a plus/minus powder swing, how much will depend on your combination. Mine will tolerate a 1 grain load change, but ejection pattern suffers. As a precaution I keep my gas block allen key in the spare compartment of my grip. I haven't tested various factory loads to see if cycle rate is affected as I only hand load for this rifle.


I don't have lots of rounds on the carrier yet to attest to long term durability. It is Ion bond DLC coated and has been flawless so far. Clean up is easier than my nickle boron and so far not a mark after 350 rounds. Some of which were a little abusive.

The above combination shoots like a a dream. Plies brass neatly a 3:00 and about three-four feet away while lying out prone, same as my regular 5.56. If you didn't know any better you would think you were shooting a .223 bolt gun by the feel. To quote my buddy, this thing puffs bunny farts!


David

How does this compare to this

http://jprifles.com/1.4.7_LMOS.php

[DRandi]

What exactly do want to compare and which JP carrier?

I do use the JP silent capture spring system and will never go back.

A titanium carrier would be most comparable to the JP aluminum carrier, only not a throw away like the aluminum. Aluminum is for as light as possible but with the understanding that it will wear and have to be replaced. JP even states that on their site. I do like the larger bearing surface on the JP carrier. I plan to get one of their Full mass M16 carriers in QPQ for a 7.62x39 upper build.