Having a Vision

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  • Klem
    Chieftain
    • Aug 2013
    • 3506

    #16
    The thread is not about Arnold?...Then who does 52' refer to in the first post of his thread?

    The thread is not about Arnold yet in your third line you say 'he' (a different person perhaps?) used certain 'techniques to become a success with marksmanship'. I am unsure the person you are referring to because the rest of us, including the person who started the thread are discussing Arnold Alois Swarzenegger of Thal, Austria. "Goal setting, attentional focus..." Who is this person you are talking about then? You want me to stay on topic yet it you that is straying from the topic in an effort to save the good intentions and reputation of the poster who started this thread.

    What started as a call to marvel at Arnold Swarzenegger's amazing life story took a turn when I failed to dutifully follow 52's lead in admiring the guy. 52 focussed on his positives and I pointed out his failings while comparing his values to others who I do admire. In doing so I also question his relevance at marksmanship training given this is the training part of the forum and presumably why he is being showcased.

    Now, to 'stay on topic' I must not mention this person anymore but talk about his life skills advice in isolation and how that is useful for marksmanship, yes?

    Well then, without talking about the person who engineered the coaching skills I think these life skills are questionably relevant to shooting. They are too generic to be anything more than mildly interesting...What would make them interesting is talking about the person they come from...But that is verboten it seems.

    Sorry 55', if staying on the topic implies being a sycophant to the opinions of moderators then in that department I have as much drive as Arnie. 52' wanted us to admire the guy and I tempered his expectation with circumspection. Two different opinions from two guys who still respect each other...Can you not live with that?

    Comment

    • LR1955
      Super Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 3355

      #17
      Klem:

      I wrote this, posted it and am editing it because I think this thread can be of value.

      The mental skills Arnold used to become a successful bodybuilder, actor, politician are the same ones used by successful marksmen. Same ones used by anyone who deliberately planned and achieved success. Doesn't matter the goal. However, they are probably more oriented towards sports or other skills requiring physical ability.

      LRRP52's post was about how Arnold became a success. You then interjected your opinion that Arnold is basically a scumbag.

      Roger -- got it.

      So let me ask these questions. No, I don't know where they are leading but hopefully to a more focused discussion about mental skills training.

      Does Arnold's ethical transgressions tarnish or void the basic mental skills that LRRP52 outlined in his original post as they can apply to marksmanship performance?

      If they do tarnish or void the basic mental skills Arnold used to succeed, why so?

      If they do not tarnish or void the basic mental skills, why is Arnold's ethical behavior brought up?

      LR55
      Last edited by LR1955; 08-08-2016, 06:07 PM. Reason: Wanted to change the intent.

      Comment

      • Klem
        Chieftain
        • Aug 2013
        • 3506

        #18
        55,

        Thank you for replying.

        In answer to your question I believe I made myself clear in earlier posts. If someone wants to valorize Arnold as a role model then be prepared for others who will disagree. I outlined Arnold's failings and my criteria for a role model. It may a different opinion to others and if anyone takes umbrage at that then it is not my intention to upset people, merely having a discussion.

        In clarification to your posts concerning me. We both know I did not say Arnold was a 'scumbag'; a personal insult. I believe you are using the term to imply my position lacks credibility. I do however believe he is a narcissist who has focussed his 'can do' attitude on achieving self-indulgent goals. Also, that many of his achievements have come at the expense of others.

        I forgive you for the slight where you made reference to Stan. It does not dignify a response.

        Yes, I believe that a persons exploits tarnish any mental skills they lay claim to. As I said, unless we can completely separate any proprietary ownership of these mental skills from the person then it is difficult not to consider the person along with the skills.

        I was not aware Arnold possessed any particular skillset other than the generic few steps I read some years ago in his biography and listed in an earlier post. I think we all know that Arnold is not a Marksman. I am also unaware that shooters use his skillset, or a skillset that Arnold also happens to use. I believe those steps he uses to achieve his goals have limited merit for shooters. What I do think would benefit shooters is possessing his drive, albeit focussed on achieving shooting outcomes.

        Please note, I had the courtesy to answer your question and now invite you to do the same (previous post). Can you live with a poster having a different opinion to a moderator?

        Comment

        • montana
          Chieftain
          • Jun 2011
          • 3209

          #19
          Not getting into the discussion about Arnie ," Ive learned my lesson LOL. Here is a video of one of my friends who started out as a newbie and has become an incredible shooter. He eats, sleeps, and lives shooting. He is one of the most focused individuals I know. He puts more effort into his shooting than any shooter I have met and I know a lot of shooters. He was not a natural by any stretch of the imagination, but through HARD WORK," let me repeat" HARD WORK, focus, and dedication has become an incredible shooter. If a person wishes to succeed at something it is beneficial to learn from people who have achieved greatness. They usually have found the right path to achieve that success.

          Comment

          • LR1955
            Super Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 3355

            #20
            Originally posted by Klem View Post
            55,

            Thank you for replying.

            In answer to your question I believe I made myself clear in earlier posts. If someone wants to valorize Arnold as a role model then be prepared for others who will disagree. I outlined Arnold's failings and my criteria for a role model. It may a different opinion to others and if anyone takes umbrage at that then it is not my intention to upset people, merely having a discussion.

            In clarification to your posts concerning me. We both know I did not say Arnold was a 'scumbag'; a personal insult. I believe you are using the term to imply my position lacks credibility. I do however believe he is a narcissist who has focussed his 'can do' attitude on achieving self-indulgent goals. Also, that many of his achievements have come at the expense of others.

            I forgive you for the slight where you made reference to Stan. It does not dignify a response.

            Yes, I believe that a persons exploits tarnish any mental skills they lay claim to. As I said, unless we can completely separate any proprietary ownership of these mental skills from the person then it is difficult not to consider the person along with the skills.

            I was not aware Arnold possessed any particular skillset other than the generic few steps I read some years ago in his biography and listed in an earlier post. I think we all know that Arnold is not a Marksman. I am also unaware that shooters use his skillset, or a skillset that Arnold also happens to use. I believe those steps he uses to achieve his goals have limited merit for shooters. What I do think would benefit shooters is possessing his drive, albeit focussed on achieving shooting outcomes.

            Please note, I had the courtesy to answer your question and now invite you to do the same (previous post). Can you live with a poster having a different opinion to a moderator?
            Klem:

            Of course I can live with a poster disagreeing with me. As long as the poster doesn't start attacking me personally -- which is also the norm when I have to intervene in a thread. Have seen it happen to Bill and LRRP52 as well.

            As for the skill sets that LRRP52 commented on. Goals setting, imagery, self talk are the three that are probably most used by athletes in any sport. All three work quite well with marksmanship. What LRRP52 didn't mention and maybe Arnold didn't use is relaxation and centering techniques -- stress management skills. Those are pretty important for anyone competing in a sport and I have found them particularly important with sports that require fine motor skills or very fast movement.

            LR55

            Comment

            • Klem
              Chieftain
              • Aug 2013
              • 3506

              #21

              Comment

              • montana
                Chieftain
                • Jun 2011
                • 3209

                #22
                Originally posted by Klem View Post
                Nice video Montana. Your friend certainly has smooth actions. 'Slow is smooth, smooth is fast'. I used to watch these guys choreographing their moves before a match, simulating when they would change mags, which targets to engage and when; on the approach, when stationary or when reversing. Not often does Prac Pistol entertain 'Hidden shoots' where no knowledge of the target and no rehearsal is permitted. That tends to sort out some who rely on reducing the activity to a choreograph of unrealistic steps.
                You are correct KLem about Practical shooting being related to choreographic steps. It is a sport, not training for combat or self defense, but that said, I have never seen the top tier shooters not dominate other shooting activities when put to the test. My friend shoots between 60 to 80 thousand rounds a year by his best guess. He even mortgaged his home once to finance his ammunition expenditures before he got sponsors and started his own training business on top of his structural engineering job. People who shoot at these levels have very little problem when applying them to real world situations. Fundamental shooting is fundamental shooting which applies to all shooting activities.

                Comment

                • Klem
                  Chieftain
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 3506

                  #23
                  Wow, 60-80K rounds is a lot of money even with handloaded lead/teflon rounds. I know of two guys personally who made a decision to leave the sport given their addiction to it was affecting other parts of their lives.

                  Our military regularly hosts top-tier prac shooters as Subject Matter Experts (SME's) in the hope some of their skills are transferrable. Many of our service guys also compete in prac pistol in their own time. It is definitely encourages innovation and the opportunity for cross-pollination is not lost in the Antipodes.

                  Comment

                  • montana
                    Chieftain
                    • Jun 2011
                    • 3209

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Klem View Post
                    Wow, 60-80K rounds is a lot of money even with handloaded lead/teflon rounds. I know of two guys personally who made a decision to leave the sport given their addiction to it was affecting other parts of their lives.

                    .
                    Addiction or determination is dependent on ones point of view, values and culture. This was the argument back in the 60"s between the hippies and normal people
                    All Joking put aside, this is a topic with out end as we have discovered with the Arnie debate and the need for referees, oops, "I mean moderators".
                    Last edited by montana; 08-09-2016, 12:42 PM.

                    Comment

                    • LR1955
                      Super Moderator
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 3355

                      #25
                      Montana:

                      If you have a problem with me as a Moderator, write John or Bill and demand I be relieved and you be my replacement.

                      If not, either stay on topic or do not post.

                      LR55

                      Comment

                      • montana
                        Chieftain
                        • Jun 2011
                        • 3209

                        #26
                        Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                        Montana:

                        If you have a problem with me as a Moderator, write John or Bill and demand I be relieved and you be my replacement.

                        If not, either stay on topic or do not post.

                        LR55
                        It was meant as a compliment Gene, not an insult. Moderating is a difficult job like refereeing. Referees have to be in the middle of fights ,"debates" with everyone trying to find fault with the referee especially when emotions fly. You do a great job moderating and the quality of this forum is the outcome. You have set me on the right course many times with complete fairness and professionalism. There was no insult or derogatory intent what so ever on my part. I apologize for the confusion. If I had a beef with you it would be sent on a PM where we could hash it out. I hope you will accept my apology as sending an insult your way was the last thing I intended to do.

                        Comment

                        • LR1955
                          Super Moderator
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 3355

                          #27
                          Originally posted by montana View Post
                          It was meant as a compliment Gene, not an insult. Moderating is a difficult job like refereeing. Referees have to be in the middle of fights ,"debates" with everyone trying to find fault with the referee especially when emotions fly. You do a great job moderating and the quality of this forum is the outcome. You have set me on the right course many times with complete fairness and professionalism. There was no insult or derogatory intent what so ever on my part. I apologize for the confusion. If I had a beef with you it would be sent on a PM where we could hash it out. I hope you will accept my apology as sending an insult your way was the last thing I intended to do.
                          Montana:

                          Absolutely accepted. For the others here, Montana and I have worked out our differences back channel a couple of times and I both enjoy our conversations and have garnered a huge amount of respect for him and his accomplishments. He is a quality person.

                          So, I was 'gobsmacked' as Kelm would probably say, when I read his post this morning. Just didn't get to respond until now.

                          However, it didn't keep me from having a good work out then a fantastic training session at the range. While at the range I realized that what he said was actually pretty funny but didn't get a chance to say so until now. Not sure what would have happened if my training didn't go as well.... No, I enjoy my competitions and sports but unlike the fellows Montana and Klem wrote about, success or failure in my sports does not dictate my quality of life. Been there and done that one. Take heed those of you who are highly competitive. Particularly in marksmanship. It can be of great benefit in your lives or it can destroy your lives.

                          So, lets get back on a marksmanship topic again please.

                          LR55

                          Comment

                          • montana
                            Chieftain
                            • Jun 2011
                            • 3209

                            #28
                            Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                            Montana:

                            Absolutely accepted. For the others here, Montana and I have worked out our differences back channel a couple of times and I both enjoy our conversations and have garnered a huge amount of respect for him and his accomplishments. He is a quality person.

                            So, I was 'gobsmacked' as Kelm would probably say, when I read his post this morning. Just didn't get to respond until now.

                            However, it didn't keep me from having a good work out then a fantastic training session at the range. While at the range I realized that what he said was actually pretty funny but didn't get a chance to say so until now. Not sure what would have happened if my training didn't go as well.... No, I enjoy my competitions and sports but unlike the fellows Montana and Klem wrote about, success or failure in my sports does not dictate my quality of life. Been there and done that one. Take heed those of you who are highly competitive. Particularly in marksmanship. It can be of great benefit in your lives or it can destroy your lives.

                            So, lets get back on a marksmanship topic again please.

                            LR55
                            I'm glad I helped with your work out. I was taken back by how you responded to my post but after my wife viewed it she totally agreed on how you would take it as an insult. So once more I have to pull my foot out of my mouth and carry on. I'm glad we got that cleared up.

                            Comment

                            • Klem
                              Chieftain
                              • Aug 2013
                              • 3506

                              #29
                              Right, that's it you two...enough with the 'Bromance'. I'm feeling left out. Let's get back to some serious arguing! (...only joking. LOL).

                              I didn't read anything disparaging in Montana's post either. I find emails and forums exaggerate formality in communication. Without the usual non-verbal cues to compliment what you say we get a higher risk of misunderstanding.

                              Difficult not to derive a sense of self from the things we have and do. I believe the term is cathexis; where we confer some things with emotional importance. I derive a sense of self from my guns and shooting experiences. I imagine if they were stolen or damaged I would feel a little less complete. Even if the insurance paid out in full for the time they were missing I would feel less of a person. By the same token I derive a sense of purpose from the activity of shooting, and a sense of community from interacting with fellow shooters (both at the range and on forums). The point being, I can understand how shooting can consume people to the point it becomes dysfunctional. I guess too much of anything is probably bad for us. Which reminds me, I need another cup of coffee...

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