LFP Comment Thread

[sneaky one]

Yes,, and some 95 grn. results. Pic and post up what you have there,Cavity back.

The 105's should be good at long range. My 105 GMX were stellar at 325 yds.

[Cali-Coon-ass]

Hi. I'm in Norcal also. Same conundrum, though I will admit to what was said earlier regarding us all eating lead for so many years in our venison. AGH! So I too have begun the process of working up loads. Before I found this posting, I tested (on paper and steel gongs) the bullet sample packs and found some TTSX. I got great groups, sub MOA, and my plate is at 360 yds. I can consistantly hit that standing off-hand. Better groups if I sand bag it. Then I read about the E-tips. I easily worked up a load in my .308 SCAR17 that is almost sniper/match grade. Took my first Russian Boar last year from 150 yards, standing off hand, at a run. That E-Tip really made a mess of BOTH hams! I didn't lead the running pig enough, but it went down anyway, though it charged me when I got close, and not very well either. Second round through the head ended that. I felt bad for not being a good enough shot at 150 yards, and worse, taking the shot on a running pig, but we had been out there for days and this was the only thing we had a shot at so I took it. I got the freezer full, and no lead in the meat! Thanks for nuthin' Jerry Brown...

Moving on, I have been trying to develop a load for my 24" AA Grrr. It took me 18 months to even get them as Nosler kept pushin' back the manufacturing dates. Then, once I got the email that Midway had them, they were gone already! I did manage to find 9 boxes, and will have gone through 2 by tomorrow afternoon. I have NOT been able to get a sub MOA grouping yet. Frustrated! That gun shoots AMAXs all in the same hole as well as SMKs. I have tried IMR 8208 XBR, and CFE223. I haven't played with the COAL yet, other than loading it to maximum length the first few batches, and reducing it to 2.170 because that's what I came up with @ .020 behind the lands from doing a shade tree measurement of where the bullet touches the lands. Before it got dark today, I got one 3 shot group at .83". I will try to replicate this tomorrow and also continue to ladder the loads till I find the most consistent load, then start trying to adjust the COAL, however, do any of you guys have any "tried and true" E-Tip loads? Tips? Recommendations?

Thanks to Rick and Sneaky and BFT for all the info and labor getting it, and thanks to Cavity and the rest of the manufacturers for having our back on this. It can't be bad that we are not eating the lead, and so it goes for the eaters of carrion as well, so the environmentalists get a free ride on this one. Perhaps our work will influence and help the rest of the hunting world, if nothing else, for that devastation these LFPs do, and the fact we aren't eating lead!

[Cali-Coon-ass]

Addendum... I must have got lucky yesterday because today my group with the same charge was 3.8 inches!!! ARG! I guess now I start to toy with COAL? Never really done that before. Help Please? I need the expertise and experience of guys with more time in this custom reloading game.
Thanks.

[rickOshay]

Finally rec'd the 85 gr TREX from Maker Bullets. Posted at the bottom of the LFP thread: http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...850#post149850

Hope to soon get to the range and get my own gel results - and to begin load development for all of these LFPs.

I updated the Group Photo at the top of the thread to include the two Maker Bullets: 85 and 110 gr.

[BluntForceTrauma]

This'll be cool. Look forward to the results!

[sneaky one]

A reminder to a many---- lead free will show up in your state , as a political issue sooner than later. I gave up on leaded years ago. My mindset is performance driven also.

Maybe for a varmint.- Never again on game meats.

[rickOshay]

Update - Just posted results for the 120 gr Cutting Edge MTH, 110 gr Maker TREX, and 100 gr Cutting Edge Raptor in the Sticky.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?13324-Lead-Free-Projectiles-for-the-6-5-Grendel&p=146390#post146390

I also reordered the thread to keep the order of smallest to largest.

[rickOshay]

The 95 gr version of the T-REX has arrived. Kindly donated by Paul at Maker. Thank you.



Here is the Maker Bullets T-Rex lineup for the Grendel: 85 gr, 95 gr, 110 gr.



Details given on the summary post: LFP Summary Post

[rickOshay]

Gel results have been posted for the 85.g and 95g T-REX LFPs by Maker. These open nicely around 1600 and 1700 fps respectively.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?13324-Lead-Free-Projectiles-for-the-6-5-Grendel

I'll update the table soon.

[rickOshay]

I also wanted to address an issue that recently occurred on a different thread regarding the 118g MKZ by Cavity Back Bullets. There was some conjecture about the bearing surface of the 118g MKZ versus the 120g Barnes TTSX.

Here is a picture of the two side-by-side with them lined up roughly at the beginning of their boattails:




I took measurements of each, and here is what I found for the Barnes:
0.555" of the LFP at 0.264
0.055" groove x 3 = 0.165" of groove length
-------
0.390" of linear bearing surface

And for the MKZ:
0.500" at 0.264
0.077" groove x 2 = 0.154" of groove length
-------
0.346" of linear bearing surface.

My eyes are getting old and my measurements may differ from what others get, but I would conclude that there is no significant difference in bearing surface, with the MKZ may actually be slightly less.

[grayfox]

I put a grid overlay onto a copy/paste of the picture into my little graphics program. Now this is 600 wide by 975 tall grid, I'll call them pixels, they're not inches or mm, and I had to make a couple assumptions:
1. Measuring the band-gap (grooves) entails going from the outer edge of a band-cut, across both chamfers to the other outer edge.
2. The two bullets look to have the same linear length from ogive to start of the respective boat tail, so I'm assuming that.
Meaning the difference in bearing surface, if any, would be the delta of the band-gap sums.
For the 120 TTSX, I measured a total of the band-gaps (grooves) of 120 pixels, 40 pixels for each gap.
For the MKZ, I measured 100 pixels, well: 1 at 51 and the 2d at 47 so I rounded up slightly, conservatively.

Meaning to me the MKZ may have a bit more bearing surface. Of course the friction is also a function of the hardness + any lubricity of the two metal surfaces, which could be different in the 1 vs the other.
Both are solids not lead/copper so probably uniform hardness properties radially through a bullet's diameter.
So --- hard to say IME - maybe the MKZ is a bit longer of a bearing surface,
But Rick you had the real things not just a picture, so what I'm seeing could be less precise.

O, one more point - rather a question, since the MKZ gaps are further to the rear of the bullet, does that cause more initial friction for the first few microseconds for bullet travel vs the TTSX bands which allow some yielding "sooner" in bullet flight? I wonder but don't know.

Interesting.

[rickOshay]

Thanks gray fox. I agree its hard to measure these, especially where the bands start on the MKZ because they are rounded.

The ogive on the MKZ is much further back than the TTSX. In the picture, it is located at the point across from the middle of the third band on the TTSX. So your assumption in #2 is a bit off for the MKZ



Thats 270 pixels long compared to the 316 pixels for the TSX on my screen

Wish the manufacturer would chime in.

It would be interesting to see a pressure trace of these two as they travel down the barrel.

[grayfox]

Good observations. FWIW I'm not a particular fan of the Barnes's either... they're good bullets I'm sure and lots of shooters love them, but I couldn't get them to track for me, and all the reading I did of them needing barrels not fouled by other bullets to do well (I tend to look for 2 or 3 bullets per rifle), plus the higher cost, plus I can get the more traditional bullets Hornady, Sierra, and Nosler to do well... I've just not had the love for 'em.
Glad other guys like 'em tho.

[LRRPF52]

I put a grid overlay onto a copy/paste of the picture into my little graphics program. Now this is 600 wide by 975 tall grid, I'll call them pixels, they're not inches or mm, and I had to make a couple assumptions:
1. Measuring the band-gap (grooves) entails going from the outer edge of a band-cut, across both chamfers to the other outer edge.
2. The two bullets look to have the same linear length from ogive to start of the respective boat tail, so I'm assuming that.
Meaning the difference in bearing surface, if any, would be the delta of the band-gap sums.
For the 120 TTSX, I measured a total of the band-gaps (grooves) of 120 pixels, 40 pixels for each gap.
For the MKZ, I measured 100 pixels, well: 1 at 51 and the 2d at 47 so I rounded up slightly, conservatively.

Meaning to me the MKZ may have a bit more bearing surface. Of course the friction is also a function of the hardness + any lubricity of the two metal surfaces, which could be different in the 1 vs the other.
Both are solids not lead/copper so probably uniform hardness properties radially through a bullet's diameter.
So --- hard to say IME - maybe the MKZ is a bit longer of a bearing surface,
But Rick you had the real things not just a picture, so what I'm seeing could be less precise.

O, one more point - rather a question, since the MKZ gaps are further to the rear of the bullet, does that cause more initial friction for the first few microseconds for bullet travel vs the TTSX bands which allow some yielding "sooner" in bullet flight? I wonder but don't know.

Interesting.

That's where I'm leaning. This doesn't mean it's a bad bullet. Barnes and other solid bullet manufacturers used to use no relief bands at all. Some still don't have them. The start pressure considerations for a bullet without relief bands close to the ogive are going to be different than one like the TSX where the first relief band is within ~.080" of the ogive, effectively forming a short ring that is driven into the leade, followed by the space of the band where there is no additional resistance until the second ring is encountered.

The Barnes engineers said it took them years of experimentation working to try to reduce the start pressure with the older product line, when the answer was under their noses all along with cast bullet shaping. Even with the relief bands, start pressure is noticeably higher with a solid, and especially increased when you kiss the lands with long COL.

They said they've seen pressure spikes as much as 10ksi with the same load just with touching the lands.

The only time I've ever blown a primer with a hand load was with the GMX in .260 Remington. It blew the snot out of that primer, and I ceased shooting and pulled that load. Everything appeared to be in a reasonable load range, but nope, it was way overpressure.

These bullets need pressure-testing in a standardized pressure test breech by someone competent, who has calibrated the system meticulously. Barnes said it took them years of calibration and re-calibration, which they are always chasing. When they see people slap an RSI on their chamber and take a few readings, they know that person is not getting any valid readings unless they are building an initial library and calibrating the gauges over a long period of time.

That's why when I see the figure of 31.5gr of CFE being thrown out there to "safely" load under this bullet, I want to see some test data to support it, because 31.5gr of CFE under a 120gr TSX is way over the top for me, I won't even go near that and haven't in my load development with it. Things start getting crazy after 30.3gr of CFE223 under a 120gr TSX at 2.230" COL.

Notice the increase in speed:

120gr TSX, CFE223, 2.230" COL, Hornady 1x brass, CCI 450, 18" Lilja 3groove, 1/8 twist
30.0 2435 2424
30.3 2463 2497
30.6 2563

When you see 66-100fps jump with .3gr of charge weight, you know you're in a really bad place, and that's with a bullet that has the relief band right behind the origin of the ogive at the shank.

Another thing that may be in the MKZ's favor is that it appears to be softer with an advertised 1600fps expansion threshold, but even still, a solid resists being driven into the lands much more than a cup and core bullet. I've never seen a spike that high with a cup and core with CFE223, even when I pushed my initial pressure ladder with the 123gr AMAX waaaaaay past MAP just to see where it would depart. I was able to get the 123gr AMAX going so fast from a 16" barrel that it exceeded 24" velocities, but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near safe to produce that load.

If I had the inclination of other people who have just jumped into this discipline, I would rush off to the internet and yell, "I just got 2700fps from a 16" Grendel with 123gr AMAX! No pressure signs!" Insane velocity is your first pressure sign.

[rickOshay]

Another thing that may be in the MKZ's favor is that it appears to be softer with an advertised 1600fps expansion threshold....

Someone on this forum tested the expansion threshold of the MKZ and found it to be MUCH lower than the Barnes TTSX bullets, by >300 fps.

The TSX was designed for much higher velocities than the Grendel with an envelop of 2000 - 3000 fps. The new LFPs coming out, like the MKZ, are designed for lower velocities, from 1600 - 2600, fps that are much better suited for the Grendel.